Turkish Sailboats

[tallboy]

I'm thinking exactly the same looking around for a turkish gulet.

There is no other boat providing more living space for less bucks and at the todays market there are so many bargains around.

Honestly, long term cruising is 25% at sea and 75% at anchor. Therefore the quality of living space is more important than the sailing one.
The endless examples of circumnavigations and Atlantic crossing with crazy crafts are demonstrating that mainly the people needs to be prepared for that and the boats they are using are secondary.

I can't see any reason why a gulet should not be capable for that if she is properly build of course.
She is a heavy displacement, is long "keel" and usually not a vessel for shallow waters.
However, most of them are more designed for motoring, but when we are looking on the Tirhandil and the classic gulet ketch their sailing capabilities are obvious and with a fitting rig it should work as it does with other heavy displacement boats.
The basic designs are more than 2,500 years old and fishing and cargo vessels have been seaworthy in all decades.

I agree, that there are plenty of "fakes" around which were built cheap and fast and they don't last at all. But aren't a lot of bad quality fiber glass boats on the market, too?
Okay maintenance is an issue. But wood is much easier to handle for homeworkers than any other material and it is a product of our nature, it can handle humidity when it has the chance to dry, it breathes.
When we are looking on teak for example. This wood needs water for life. The best maintenance for a teak deck is a daily salt water wash down and it will last nearly for ever. Wood was the only material for boat building over centuries.

Compare the living quality of a wooden home with a concrete high rise or a wood floor with a laminated one!!

The experienced turkish boat builders developed their traditional methods further and today they are able to laminate the joints for more durability and less maintenance.
The ex- and interior finish are gorgeous and that means master craftsmen are working. And the designs are meanwhile far off of being traditional only.

CE and ABC standards are common for experienced boatyards and custom building, too.
May be you were thinking that I'm a fan of wooden boats - I'm not.
But it seems to me a way to get a huge boat with plenty of house comfort for a price of a 40 footer. With the savings you're able to invest in so many years of maintenance that the cruising life span can be covered.

[watchkeeper]

I lived in Turkey for several years refitting yachts for international clients (lower labour costs) and built two new yachts in various yards as project manager/engineer.

To understand Turk boat building is to understand Middle East and Turk mindset, for them its about appearances not substance.

As several posts have already stated Turk Gulets are built for coastal motor sailing.
Rule of thumb anything built pre 2000 dont touch. Early Black pine boats were good because the high resin pitch content was a great preserver ie Baltic traders were built with black pine for North Sea but todays timber lacks the quality.

The other problem was poor boat building skills and bad engineering systems. The hammered galv spikes the use to fix planking stressed the sawn frames because they were'nt pilot bored, joints fell on frames instead of lapping blocks then when the galv spike corroded frames and planks dry rot to destruction.

As a sailing yacht Gulets are hard work, they dont point up well, are slow to tack and cross track error is hard on auto pilots.

Black Sea Gulets were better designed hulls with no clipper bow/square foot and built stronger with better grade of timber.
Timber hulls being built since 2002-3 are much improved but I would still not recomend one for off shore.

If you decide to build an off shore in Turkey get a non Turk Naval Architect that understands off shore requirements to design the vessel, select a good yard, make them finance each build stage to an agreed completion phase then if satisfied you sign off and authorize the yard to draw against an escrow account.

If a yard cannot finance a 3 month built stage then they are not suffficently capitalized enough to protect your investment so your money is at risk. Turkey's courts are not very sympathetic to foreigners as many victims have learnt.
Do not pay deposits, do not trust a Turk yard plus manage every stage of the build and procurement yourself and you will get a result.

The best timber hull you could build for serious blue water is min. 50m thick carvel epoxy jointed on laminted frames then sheath the entire hull with a layer of 8mm Corecell and Wests system. Thats a bullet proof combination.

[donradcliffe]

I agree totally with watchkeeper. I saw a number of Gulets in the Turkish boatyards which were literally falling apart due to their pine and galvanized nail constuction. They looked good on top, but were not seaworthy. On the other had, I watched a new Gulet being built with the West system epoxy and laminated frames which looked like it could circumnavigate.

[tallboy]

Thanks watchkeeper for your detailed advise.
I've worked many years in different continents and so I'm fully aware about what you were talking about mentality and I know the turks a little bit, too.
Gulets are beamy boats and that prevents their capability of being fast.
The Tirhandil with the canoe stern may be the best, but the classic gulet with the rounded stern should be closer than the ketch with the huge square butt.
A cruiser is more on safety than on speed. So that is an important issue and the boat should not fell apart when it gets uncomfortable.
So you can't get everything. Safety is no one but I'm still fascinated how roomy and cheap they are. And in comparison of a 39 footer for a quarter million........

[watchkeeper]

I purchased this 25mt 92 built Black Sea ketch as a neglected yacht needing a refit and fully rebuilt her for live aboard/private cruising/diving.
The reason I purchased her, a second hand hull was the basic hull design, build quality and below water lines with long keel were prefect for a long range cruiser with reasonable draft 2.4mts that I intended rebuilding to my own tech/specs.

I wanted good sea handling character, reasonable sailing ability with a big volume interior in a more classic style with spending $2.0m plus on a new build.

I gutted the hull, replaced the keel, stern truck post, some planks (chestnut planked with oak frame) pulled every nail and replaced with coach screw under a epoxied wood plug.

All new deck, bulkheads, coachwork and interior, new 180hp Iveco apirated diesel, poly grey/black tanks with Techna electric heads.
New masts/spars and S/S rigging.

All marinized cabling/electrics with combination Victron Multi multi plus invertors and chargers to 1200Amp/hrs 12 x 2vDC GEL traction house batteries and all Furuno nav duplicated salon helm/cockpit helm. I designed and equiped the galley to work blue water and alongside on shore power with live aboard function criteria. Thats important, to visualize your all round requirements then design build that to cope with a knock down or 360 in hull down conditions.
760Kg of batteries let lose in a roll over can be problematic.

As a project..difficult, the result...very good. Would I do it again...absolutely. Would I recomend someone do the same ...only if they know boat build and can manage difficult but clever workers plus the most critical have a suitable donor hull.

[watchkeeper]

I purchased this 25mt 92 built Black Sea ketch as a neglected yacht needing a refit and fully rebuilt her for live aboard/private cruising/diving.
The reason I purchased her, a second hand hull was the basic hull design, build quality and below water lines with long keel were prefect for a long range cruiser with reasonable draft 2.4mts that I intended rebuilding to my own tech/specs.

I wanted good sea handling character, reasonable sailing ability with a big volume interior in a more classic style with spending $2.0m plus on a new build.

I gutted the hull, replaced the keel, stern truck post, some planks (chestnut planked with oak frame) pulled every nail and replaced with coach screw under a epoxied wood plug.

All new deck, bulkheads, coachwork and interior, new 180hp Iveco apirated diesel, poly grey/black tanks with Techna electric heads.
New masts/spars and S/S rigging.

All marinized cabling/electrics with combination Victron Multi multi plus invertors and chargers to 1200Amp/hrs 12 x 2vDC GEL traction house batteries and all Furuno nav duplicated salon helm/cockpit helm. I designed and equiped the galley to work blue water and alongside on shore power with live aboard function criteria. Thats important, to visualize your all round requirements then design build that to cope with a knock down or 360 in hull down conditions.
760Kg of batteries let lose in a roll over can be problematic.

As a project..difficult, the result...very good. Would I do it again...absolutely. Would I recomend someone do the same ...only if they know boat build and can manage difficult but clever workers plus the most critical have a suitable donor hull.

[tallboy]

Wow, what a boat! Congratulations.
At the end of the day what were your savings?
What average speed under sails did you?
How many people do you need for sailing?
Do you still owning the yacht?

Your example is obviously showing that the idea isn't crazy.
Even I'm not a boat builder I know what I want and with some research it should be possible to find qualified manpower.
I've learned already that a strongly build hull is the key for everything.

I'm a little bit afraid about the handling of such a huge vessel and intending to get a bit smaller. However it will be a bit tricky to implement my wishlist into a 60footer without building high cabin tops/pilothouse. But I'm thinking on longer trips and heavy weather.

What I didn't get so far is the difference of the Black Sea and the Mediterrainian hulls.
My intentions are with a classic gulet hull with the rounded stern even when this means a loss of space. I simply don't like the square butt.
Twin smaller engines would be my choice and three masts with smaller roller furled self tending sails would be my first choice to maneuver easier and to sail short hand.

Todays LED technology reduces energy requirements significant and the Victron you used would be my choice also. Aluminium tanks for fuel and SS for water including a watermaker and the Racor filters for fuel. I've seen they are using standard Reefers, Washers, Toilets and so on. What do you think about that?

I want to keep the installations as simple as possible to reduce failures.
Thank you again. It is really a pleasure to discuss the issues.

[watchkeeper]

Hi Tallboy

I still own the yacht through she's unfortunately sat stored in a yard for the past couple years only because my work load. I build superyachts as senior project manager/engineer, currently driving several new build projects in Europe, Turkey, UAE and US. A colleague and I have just set up a London based superyacht project management business, the focus being to protect the Client's new build project interests/investment as his PM and CR (shipyard Client representative) .

The savings in my refit were substantial approx Ero260K in equipment procurement and another Ero200K + in local costs by direct managing negotiations with material suppliers and contractors myself.
In Turkey its important to cut out the middleman's 12-20% commissions. They dont like it as yards see foreigners as cash cow opportunity, take advantage of language problem and are without peer in dishonest business practices.

Anyone can get a very good quality yacht built in Turkey at 20% less than European/US prices but only if you have a non Turk professional representative that knows the system, the language and is on top of it every day of the build. The cost of a good PM is easily absorbed in the
10-15% savings and QA of the issue free finished vessel.

The single biggest problem a foreigner faces in places like Turkey building a yacht is you will 100% guaranteed fight with the shipyard over costs, constant delays and quality and they will respond by having the vessel arrested forcing you to go into court, legal costs and more delay where you will also get screwed on legal fees. That is their club to pound you into submission.

Regarding my yachts performance the 280hp 13Lt Iveco (8410M22) has max 2100rpm, I cruise at 9-10kts @ 1000rpm, max speed 12kts. I spec'ed this diesel because it has 100% rated duty cycle so if caught in a heavy conditions I could maintain a heading under power continuous for 24hrs plus.
Max performance using borrowed and seriously flogged sails that did'nt fit was 12kts plus the rig lacked a planned for mizzen stay'sil that did'nt get made.
I also set the sail managment system up for short or single hand sailing with 24v Barrient 76ST for all mains winches fore and aft with Lewmar 61-54ST manuals for trimming.

With practise and good advance planning a husband/wife team could safely manage this size of yacht if set up well in a crossing but and I think most agree its more a factor of the watch sharing issues and fatigue of long watches on short handed sailing rather than the size of the yacht.

If you want volume I personally think its better on the water line or below than high up. I like deck salons and pilot house yachts are popular as live aboards and practical for coast cruising but the same can be a liability on a blue water cruiser if you cop a big green sea on deck plus its additional beam windage presents a problem for cross track error.

Maybe its a case of designing for the best result in every condition with the availible budget then make the results work by good seamanship and practise.

As to hulls the gulet type rounded off sterns they are a good hull. The tirhandil as you say is even better, the sea handling ability is good with the right rig, you dont get the lift under the stern so he bow stays high plus there's no bottom slap sitting on the moorings.
The loss of stern cabin space is a bitch but instead very good locker storage is availible with accessable from below or thru deck hatches.
I sailed a tradional gaff rigged 30yr old 14mt Tirandil around Bodrum once and it handled like a tram on rails. The balance was so bad it just would not point up. Ketch rig is without doubt the best set up fot these hulls. My rig has a furler 150% drifter, furler 110% hi cut jib, inner staysail, main, mizzen and mizzen stay'sil allowing me to adjust the rig to any conditions for short handed sailing. Mainstick is 22mt deck stepped, mizzen 18mts keel stepped.

That is another issue with Turk built charter yachts, they are all seriously under rigged for sailing, hardware, fittings and winches are undersized as is often the standing rigging. They dont set them up for serious sailing as again its only intended for inshore use with very inexperienced crews.

Twin smaller engines are okay if you can include feathering or adjustable wheels otherwise the drag becomes an issue. I fitted a 36" 4 blades Hi tech alloy bronze designed and cast by ZF Australia. It probably costs me a knt plus when sailing but the saving in fuel/engine efficiency make up for it and I use the engine a lot when I'm alone and close inshore. My specs were based on a trade off - biggie crossing every 2 yrs but with live aboard/lots of short cruise sailing and bay hopping in between where motoring and fuel burn would be a major cost factor.

I recomend using poly prop tanks for all except fuel. They are almost indestructable, I've never had a weld fail unlike S/S and alloy plus there's no electrical conduction. Don't use house domestic fitting they are'nt suitable and the pipe sizes are impractical for sail yachts plus even with a desalinator every litre counts especially when a week out the desalinator does a G Bush and stops performing.
Many of the big Turk charter yachts use household gear because its cheap, easily replaced and they only go 20nm off shore.

Techna manufactures a product SaniSplit that manages the waste from 2 heads direct to discharge, the over board discharge has been approved by USCG for use inshore waters. The units are reasonable in cost and could effectively delete the need for tanks though I would still include holding tanks for marinas and possible blackship condition.

for me personally building yachts, sailing them, developing concepts and solving problems is about the most fun any man can have with his clothes on.

If you need any other info let me know

[tallboy]

Hi watchkeeper,

thanks again for everything you'd written down. It helps me a lot to find the right boat and to refit her regarding to long term cruising purposes.

I'm already retired and want to start the cruising life asap cause my time is limited.
I recognized that the rigs are mainly based on steel masts and not really suitable for ocean cruising. On a wooden boat I'd prefer to have wooden masts too.

I agree completely that nails are not a solution!

What are your thoughts on the laminated planking they are offering today?
I guess oak frames would be the first choice if they're strong enough and regarding the planking my intension is going to mahagony cause iroko is too heavy and pine too weak.
Thanks too for the information about tanks and the sanitary system which is for sure an important issue. Would you go for the diesel tanks on steel?

Unfortunately I didn't got any comments of yourself on my idea of the self tending sails with three masts. CDI offers excellent furlers but for a luff of max 40'only.
They gained a lot of experience over the years. Lower masts mean smaller sails, less headaches with the masts and having different furled foresails you can play with. this size can be trimmed by mechanical winches and sail area is as big as with a two mast rig.

I agree with your statements about pilothouses and deck salon. But having a deck salon like your pilothouse and a flush deck seems to me a good compromise. I don't like to live in a cellar. Sitting in the salon I'd like to have some view. The cabins are a different story cause they're for sleeping mainly.
Here ventilation is a major issue.

Your story encourages me to go over 60ft to realize my program of room which I'd like to have. So I' looking now a classic gulet (rounded shape stern) 69' to 80', low profile with a well built hull. The other staff can be changd with less efforts.

Thanks again and hopefully we'll be in touch.
Michael

[watchkeeper]

Hi Micheal

There were a couple of things I missed last posting.
Re. self tending sails, I haven't sailed a yacht fully kitted with multi mast/multi self tending rig.
My inner staysil is set up with a club boom that will self set, boom swivel of a pintel I custom fabracted that holds the inner forestay rig screw, the tack is anchored to a curved rack via sheet/car pulley that I can adjust from the cockpit.

I've seen quite a few big schooners (3 mast) in the Med set up with all furler mounted mains and jibs sparfree set with the usual curved track/car combination. They seem to perform well and require less attention.
Shannon's designs touch on this a bit with his sketch rig, the idea being a strong but good performance rig for off shore cruisers.

Re the Mediterranean v Black Sea. The Black Sea is renown for really savage storms so all the various cultures/people making a living by fishing developed there build their boats to suit. The Black sea Turks became renown for the build quality of their fishing vessels and later the yachts they built for wealthy Turks. The finish was a bit agricultural but the hulls were very good. My yacht was designed by an expat NA working in Italy. He produced the original design/specs for the owner who commissioned the build in a Blk Sea shipyard.

Cold moulded or laminated hulls are excellent if the builder knows his epoxy materials, has climate control and uses good timber. The concept started in NZ in the 1950's based on the WWII US PT Boats using ply on hardchine. The universal method now is strip plank 2 layers diagonal, a third horizontal layer first or last.
If I was building a cruiser using this method I would finish with a layer of Corecell to provide a fairing base and additional protection against dings and worm.
The most critical issue is sealing the inner surface against dry rot. This method of build does not tolerate damp and contary to what many say internal timber hulls do not need to be left unfinished to breath. Sealed timber is happy rot free timber and needs protection just as we seal a steel hull.
I surveyed to very well built cold moulded yachts last year both 85' 2million euro apiece that had mast seal leaks. Fresh water had sat a year or more in a difficult to reach compartment and rotted the outer shell.

If you are intending to buy second hand in Turkey you will find depending on price range one suitable hull per 100. I would suggest avioding square forefoot clipper bow hulls, built in Bodrum yards by the dozen. Marmaris hulls are not worth considering, the best built earlier hulls came from Istanbul and Black Sea yards but the hull designs vary from awful to quite good.

There are some good steel hulls built in Turkey which I think are more suitable for knock about cruising hulls suitable in unknown waters.
Considering the chances of rupture or sprung planks from collision with whales and junk inshore and blue water these days, steel by comparison is easily repaired, takes a pounding, easy to modify and with timber decks, upper works etc is just as traditional.

There are fire resistant insulations availible now to warm and improve hull accoustics and have also limited penertration damage when parked on a reef.
Maintenance levels are simular, your have more internal volume plus its easy to weld in a flange to mount light weight ply water tight bulk heads.

If you want to post an temporary email address I'll send you my contact details..I'm reluctant to post my priv or biz contacts. Last time I did that I got a 100 plus spam per day from freaks and 419 scamers.

[tallboy]

Watchkeeper, thanks a lot for again very useful information sent.
Sorry about the delay in responding but I've been on the road for a couple of days and on top of that quite busy, too.
I'd really like to learn more about the steel vessels you mentioned.
I'd really appreciate to keep in touch via email (micha192@gmx.net)
Thanks again,
Michael

[tallboy]

I've seen somewhere a listing offering your boat for sale.
Can you confirm this and can I make an offer without the broker?

[Cherise]

Having lived in Kas, Turkey for a few months (a major port for the Gulet runs out of Fethiye area), they are wooden, thus need upkeep, they do NOT fall apart in a few yrs as another member put it....whom I believe just wanted to state an opinion or something.
My dad does business with a man who runs a lot of gulet cruses out of Fethiye...he makes a good deal of money doing it....if his boats were falling apart all the time I believe profit would be a big issue.
Here is the BIG problem with Gulets...they are HEAVY! Remember Roman and Greek history when they would build like boats....but they had oarsmen ready and willing...well that is why. The Med, especially the closer you head over to the Middle East lacks wind in the Summer and so these gulets will raise their sails but almost always have their motors running too. If you google search gulet tours in turkey under sail...you should find one or two that claim to SAIL theirs...it is due to the type of Gulet they buy. If you are serious about this you should contact them to see if they have a charter for sale. Or if you are serious...I can get in touch with our gulet business friend who may have a gulet going on the market? Maybe he is a broker....he is trustworthy!

[Cherise]

Originally Posted by Diego

What is wrong with Turkish sailboats?

I want a 50'+ three berth+ sail boat to sail around the world on with my family (wife + 2 children).

We currently move about every 3-6 months to a different country and would continue that practice, but I'm not sure we would truly be considered a "live aboard" family. We would continue renting houses in each port. The sailboat would just make it easier to move and a place to keep our eight suitcases of stuff that we currently move from country to country.

I keep looking at these large charter boats available in Turkey for dirt cheap. Every time I ask a sailor friend if they might be suitable for our needs, I get the same answer... they aren't "passage vessels."

Why not? Are they going to sink somehow when they hit ocean water instead of the med sea?

Then I read about a family that did exactly what we are doing with a Turkish sailboat they bought in Greece. They sailed around the world in 2 1/2 years and then sold the sailboat for $20K less than they bought it for... so they basically rented a sailboat for $20K for 2+ years.

What's true? Why are Turkish sailboats frowned upon? Why are they so cheap? Is there something you can do to one that makes sailors happy that they are now magically a passage vessel verses a charter boat?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Diego I do not know where you are located but why not buy an older boat in the US with an aft cabin (for nice privacy from the kids) that is seaworthy...I LOVE Hardin ketches (Hardin 45 is hugh below and a ketch rig may help teach your kids sailing....starting them out on running the mizzen).
Eastcoast seems to have the best deals (although we are seeing nice prices in Calif. too)...maybe a charter from the Carib. or FL then sail her over to the MED leaving in June (early JUNE)...that's when most leave. I find a lot of interest in this as my folks own a seafront villa in Kas, Turkey (amazing views and building quality) and I myself want to buy a boat in the US and sail her over that way...boats are cheaper here than Europe, they have VAT (although I don't know if being American we can get out of that?) but also if our economy worsens (I anticipate a crash this may-july...sorry bummer I know) so I believe sailboats will come down more this summer/fall.

[filsatine]

Originally Posted by watchkeeper

I purchased this 25mt 92 built Black Sea ketch as a neglected yacht needing a refit and fully rebuilt her for live aboard/private cruising/diving.
The reason I purchased her, a second hand hull was the basic hull design, build quality and below water lines with long keel were prefect for a long range cruiser with reasonable draft 2.4mts that I intended rebuilding to my own tech/specs.

I wanted good sea handling character, reasonable sailing ability with a big volume interior in a more classic style with spending $2.0m plus on a new build.

I gutted the hull, replaced the keel, stern truck post, some planks (chestnut planked with oak frame) pulled every nail and replaced with coach screw under a epoxied wood plug.

All new deck, bulkheads, coachwork and interior, new 180hp Iveco apirated diesel, poly grey/black tanks with Techna electric heads.
New masts/spars and S/S rigging.

All marinized cabling/electrics with combination Victron Multi multi plus invertors and chargers to 1200Amp/hrs 12 x 2vDC GEL traction house batteries and all Furuno nav duplicated salon helm/cockpit helm. I designed and equiped the galley to work blue water and alongside on shore power with live aboard function criteria. Thats important, to visualize your all round requirements then design build that to cope with a knock down or 360 in hull down conditions.
760Kg of batteries let lose in a roll over can be problematic.

As a project..difficult, the result...very good. Would I do it again...absolutely. Would I recomend someone do the same ...only if they know boat build and can manage difficult but clever workers plus the most critical have a suitable donor hull.

Managed find Watchmaker's boat for sale, although it give me more confidence to buy her knowing the work that's been put in, something pretty awful has happened to the bow. Not sure how this can be fixed.