The plan from someone still not a sailor

[gent48dd]

Originally Posted by grantmc

Bula from Fiji Gent48dd.

Typically my standard welcome is "Hoping that you'll gain help and useful information from the forum. Do feel free to post your own thoughts, questions and ideas here on CF. The forum only works when people post, and 95% of members here seem reluctant. Don't be a lurker."

But this seems completely inadequate given your lengthy thought provoking post. You invite responses so this is my perception.

I think that the harsh reality is, as another poster alluded, living on a sailing boat doesn't have much glamour (currently I am having a hard time fighting all the bitey bugs trying to eat me). For a large number of people it's actually just a caravan park on water. I think in your part of the world you call these a trailer parks. There are huge numbers living on boats that never actually go anywhere. I'm not knocking that, nor am I suggesting it's a bad way to live, but it is a common reality.

If you talked to them they'll have reasons for not sailing. But for most of those people their normal is that they are doing a job, perhaps on board, perhaps on shore. But they are living on the water, and the boat home is a comparatively cheap option. Sometimes the boat is a project boat and they tinker on their boats, forever buying another bit of gear or another drum of epoxy. For those people their boat soaks up all their money and time.

And believe me, it is easy to spend money on a boat. I've just replaced much of my running rigging (running rigging is what we mean by the ropes on the boat). Didn't need to replace, but to me the old cordage was looking tired and dirty and felt hardened. Sometimes I visit a boat shop and see some cool gizmo and can't help myself, So I have a dozen or so gizmos waiting to be installed, some I've had for 5 years. One day! And you'll commonly find this so at least I know I am not alone.

You're talking about a 50 foot boat. Dude that is a huge machine for a guy of your age and inexperience. And whatever design will also be significantly complex, and require either substantial work by you or by paid labour. Just anti fouling such a beast each season will be an expensive and significant undertaking. When something breaks and it will (quite often and regularly) then she will soak up money, and big boat means big money.

And I don't understand using a smaller boat as a pathway. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a 30 footer both to live and to sail. And as some said, maybe sailing isn't for you, who knows.

My advice, join the local sailing club and go sailing. Forget lessons and courses for the next 12 months (waste of money till you know you have a passion). Just go sailing. Most keelboat skippers at every Club need crew. Be crew, make friends, go sailing. Ask questions, many questions, and start most of the questions with 'why'. Where possible go out on different boats, you'll begin to see how they are all differently configured. Wander round the boatyards and docks looking at different boats.

But beware, many many people turn up just like you and we see them maybe 3 or 4 times and then never again. Same on courses (I am a sailing instructor). So I would suggest keeping your dreams to yourself when hanging out with other sailors, at least until you come to know people.

Go sailing, meet other sailors, hang out and be an active member. Help with things around the club. Help the skipper/owners when it's time to do boat work. In Wellington we have a Classic Yacht Assn. Just a very small bunch of people that find very old yachts, acquire and then refurbish and sail them. Huge amounts of work, but a wonderful way to learn skills, hangout with other sailors and also go sailing. Maybe there is a group like this where you live.

Being from a trucking background you might have the impression that boats are like trucks or cars. They're not. Most of the boats that most people can afford are bespoke and at least 40 years old. They might have had a production run of 6 in total. And there have been 40+ years of owners who made changes and modifications and added gizmos etc. Also it means hunting down parts or more likely improvising. There is no part shop you can go to for much of a boat. That aside there are some boats that have had large production runs as a result of being built for many years.

The other thing I would counsel is to go old school. Forget about Youtube (cos most of it is bs as you say in America). Read books, and old blogs. Here is one I highly recommend to start: Atom Voyages. In 3 months when you've read through all James' work drop me a pm and I'll recommend another.

But seeing as how you are already in the forum. Here's a thread to read: Babsam (buy a boat, save a marriage). Also read some of Jane's blogg posts (the links are in the thread). This is the tale of 2 people who bought a very expensive boat and had no idea what they were doing. Nor did they have any aptitude. And they never got better, just went from disaster to disaster.

Did I mention you should also go sailing? Oh and keep a log; right from day one. When you've clocked 100 (nautical) miles then post here and we'll celebrate. That is about 500 hours sailing (not including getting boat ready and putting her to bed again).

I do not for a moment wish to put you off, quite the opposite, hence recommending James' web site. What he has accomplished is amazing, and his writing so matter of fact. But more importantly it is inspiring and I hope that you will be inspired.

Good luck, go sailing!

I thank you for the advice, that's why I joined a forum. You hit the nail on the head. Ya I have seen all the videos on YouTube and I am following many of those people my current favorite is the family sailing Zatara. Right now I do not see myself in the Bahamas or places like Tahiti. I don't even have a boat and you are correct I would fall into the category of "Boat Caravanning" with some coastal sailing almost exclusively in and around San Juan Island Washington State. The current plan is a boat to live at anchor in Reid Harbor because it is very protected 5 miles from Roche Harbor where I can provision and my sailing would be mostly between Duncan (Victoria Island, BC) and Tacoma, WA ( my kids and grandchildren live in Tacoma), (friend in Duncan BC), there sailing clubs in Roche where I can meet people living in the area I plan to live in for awhile at least till I get enough experience to venture a bit further on weekends. A a a a 50 ft was kind of pipe dream, on the other hand it is possible I just might pick up a first mate, I am 65 but you never know. I don't believe I can handle a 50 ft boat by myself. Mostly right now just looking for all the feed back I am getting, and there are people leaving all kinds of links, which I appreciate, thanks for the feed back.

[gent48dd]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

@gent48dd,

I guess it's my sad duty to tell you what I think. With the Miniere's you don't get enough warning to be safe alone at sea; and really, not even as crew. An attack at a moment when all hands are on deck can have you overboard in a fraction of a second. It would be an extra burden on any skipper, and terribly cruel to fail to disclose, as well. Imagine this happening at night, them risking themselves to rescue you, almost impossible.

Suppose you had a Force Fifty. At 52,000 lbs., you're docking the boat, get an attack. Just as bad as in a big rig on the highway, man. You'll tear heck out of the dock. Maybe even get tossed off the boat when it stops and you roll off.

If you go overboard and have an attack, would you be able to coordinate to swim?

**********

Sailboats require maintenance. Stuff breaks on old and on new boats. Fixing them under way in a seaway can be seasick-making. Would being seasick trigger an attack?

Unfortunately, since you cannot trust your body to not send you a Miniere's attack, I think you need to make a totally different plan. If you go back to work and are good at this brokering job, then possibly crewed charters in the places of the world that you most want to visit could be arranged.

We all come to the time when we shift from being an asset as crew to "too much worry." It is a hard factor to come to grips with. But we do have to accept the things we cannot change, and then decide how to move forward.

I am a sailor with a lot of miles, and struggling with the "too much worry" stage now. I regret writing so negatively, but I really think you should not go forward with this plan in its present shape. You may feel free to risk your own life, but the enduring pain you risk giving to others if you persist is really huge. I do not think we should do that to others, or risk doing it.

Ann

PS. You might look up cinnarizine HCL (called Stugeron in the UK). It is a drug that has been used in larger doses than those for preventing seasickness for the treatment of Miniere's Disease. It is not generally available in the US, as the producer did not want to pay for FDA testing. It is available, however, via mail order from Canada. Then, maybe you can arrange a Zoom consultation with a specialist in Canada. Be sure to have a letter from your physician, with all his/her thinking about your particular case, like a proper referral. Maybe some hope lies in that direction.

A.

Thank you so much for your comments, I take them seriously, this is not really that negative, what you are saying is how are you going to deal with this or that. To be honest I don't know till I am there. One thing I didn't talk about because my introduction was so long already and I gave the worst case stuff about my disease, and there were years of being hit and being down for 45 min, I mean in a grocery store I just fell over, talk about embarrassing. But as I grew older while I still had attacks, they didn't last as long, they became fewer, they didn't knock me to the ground, but the visual stuff was still bad. Last attack was 3 years ago lasted less than a min. My Doc told me that it's very possible this will just fade over time. The problem is there in no telling every case is different. So my plan was get debt free, by the boat and learn. Where am I talking about? Live at Reid Harbor just North of San Juan Island, WA like living in an RV, I am 5 miles from Roche Harbor where I can provision, when I do sail it would be on inland waterways 24 miles to Duncan BC, 100 miles from Tacoma all inland water sailing, this is where I would learn and find out, what I can do. The biggest thing I worry about is not me, my biggest concern is what if I am coming into Roche Harbor and I endanger someone else, that is a problem .... so I take your comments seriously, I tank you for responding

[gent48dd]

Originally Posted by DefinitelyMe

Sounds definitely doable. Just a couple of observations:

1) internet: if you need it 24/7 then unfortunately you will be limited to coastal cruising. Sat Comms are not (currently) capable of providing what you want. They are super expensive and there are still times, frequently, when you can't get a reliable signal.

2) it would be a shame to sink all this time, effort and money into this project only to discover that, for whatever reason, the lifestyle will not work for you. Anything to do with boats is generally glamourised. The reality is rarely in keeping with the expectations. I think it would be good if you could give it a go first without investing too much. Try crewing for someone, for example.

I will be coastal only going between Duncan BC, and Tacoma WA hoping to live at anchor at Reid Harbor, which is 5 miles from Roche Harbor San Juan Island and the internet off of San Juan is strong, when I start this it's not really about sailing, it's about living at anchor because as much money as I spend here in Albuquerque sharing the expense of a house, I could be living at anchor and have 600 bucks left for maintenance on the boat and that is from my retirement, does not include the money I make at my new job which at the very least will 40k but more likely closer to 60k. I can live on the boat and my retirement will pay for 90% of all expenses. That said I will not really be sailing, I will be living on a boat in the harbor .... does not make you a sailor. BUt I want to use my weekends to pull anchor and actually coastal sail Canada to Tacoma, when I gain enough experience I look at going to Alaska. Not really blue water sailing. All this time I have to watch my disease, it should fade and the more years I go with no problems, I am inclined to think I can hit blue water, but that is way, way off, right now get debt free, buy a boat I can live on and learn how to take care of the sytems of the boat, Thank you so much for your post and Happy New Year.

[gent48dd]

With all the response I got I saved this for last. I understand your point. One thing I di not explain in 1st post, really I am expecting to live at anchor, probably Reid Harbor just 5 miles north of Roche harbor ( where I could provision ), it's all inland water ways but you have a strong point "What if". I take your thoughts very seriously. I am not worried about myself, far more worried about what happens if I am coming in to Roche harbor to provision and an attack happens and I end up damaging someone's boat or worse injuring someone. THAT I am worried about. Mostly I will be at anchor working at Reid Harbor move 5 mile to provision. First attempts at sailing will be to head for Duncan, Victoria Island, BC Canada 24 miles, to see a friend, if I can master that then down the inland water ways to Tacoma 100 miles to see my granddaughter. That said I have spoken with my Doc who feels I could go back to truck driving because 1) episodes are far , years apart, and the severity has greatly decreased. That does not mean that I can walk out of this house and and really sever attack happens but it is rare. So I continue to watch my health; you no what is weird about this disease they very best thing you can do for is work out in the gym, meaning hard work, be physical, no doc can tell my why but they all say physical , hard physical activity helps better than any drug they can give me. Well working on a sailboat, sanding, scraping is physical. There is no cure, and most doc who deal with this disease will tell you, no way to predict if you are better. The worst thing I worry about is not me, I jumped out of airplanes with 130 pounds of equipment 95 jumps successful 1 jump parachute failed, I am alive, climbing a 1000 foot rock, I took a 140 foot fall, I survived. What worries me I what happens if I am bringing the boat in to a marina (say to provision) and I have an attack if only for a few seconds and I hit a boat or worse hurt some one, that is what worries me, how can I deal with that. Right now my thinking is don't take the boat in, take the tender in and better yet not a powered tender but one I must row, great physical exercise something I need that is good for me , take jerry cans for the gas, there are ways around the problem, but I want you to know I really appreciate your comments ... You might be correct, I can't , I am trying to think my way trough this, why would I want to do all that ... I saw a picture, I may never be able to be on the ocean I can accept that, but I saw a boat, that is my boat, it is the prettiest boat I have ever seen, it's beautiful. I am going to make a new post not respond to a comment, it is the most beautiful boat I have ever seen ... well I have seen boats costing millions, I am talking about a boat I could afford, anyway thank you so much, really and there might be a point where I have to say I can't do this but I am going to try. I thought your comments were really good thoughtful , Thank you God Bless and Happy New Year

[gent48dd]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their response, wow that was nice. It's OK to question me challenge me, I don't mind that how else do you learn? If every thing you say and everyone cheers and agrees with you, have you learned anything? That said I talked about a goal about getting to a 50ft boat. That is a lot of boat, well it's not quite 50ft, how about 47? I fell in love with a boat lol and I have been starring at this for months. It took my breath away damn that is a beautiful boat. I think very first I I looked at the shape of the bow, and then my eyes looked at the shape of the stern, and the the whole line of the boat. Maybe not to everyone else, everyone has their won ideas of what is pretty. Then I saw the inside the woodwork, to me this is a beautiful boat. Then I started search for this boat for sale ...... NOW the boat in the picture I will post is 300K, that is out of my price range, I can go as high as 100k at 17.5% interest over 10 years, that payment is the exact same payment I make every month right now on a house and still have enough money to live on and I am talking Retirement SSI pay, but I am going back to work and I will have the retirement pay + minimum 40K and I can make that money till I am 80 as long as my brain works. I saw this boat, I fell in love with it ... it's not for every one but it is for me Vagabond 47 Ketch cutter rigged.

[mvweebles]

Gent48 - one observation. "Solid 24/7 internet" is not happening on a boat. I've tried and even where connectivity is reasonably reliable (ICW near St Pete FL where I now live), it can be sketchy with gaps. Honestly, is really stressful trying to keep a veneer of normal work.

If you're doing dispatch work where you're expected to respond reliably and promptly, you will have gaps. Won't be pretty.

Good luck otherwise

Peter

[LittleWing77]

GrantMC has given you the best advice in Posts #10 and #11

Plus Ann's advice about treatment for your Meniere's. I had no idea we had specialized drugs up here that the States doesn't have.

Also put aside the Vagabond 47. It is HUGE, unless you had a permanent crew of three. You have no idea how huge because you. do. not. sail. As well, you would have an incredibly difficult time getting insurance with no sailing background and no qualifications.

GET SAILING! As soon as possible. See if you like it or not, before yearning after $300,000 ketches that would probably kill you.

Did I mention get sailing asap...?
Happy New Year,
LittleWing77

[gent48dd]

I have not commented for months, I have been reading, reading, listening. There is so much to make decisions about. It's good that I figure I am two years away. I broke it down, what is my purpose. I have a disease that I have had no problem with for three years but that does not mean there won't be problems and several people have brought up things to think about that are real, bad storm have reef the sail I am alone, what if it happens then? 1) purpose :: I need to be able to see my granddaughter in Tacoma and see a friend in Duncan BC. If I just lived in an apt. or house in near by area and drove it won't work for me, prices are just too high in Seattle to Tacoma and driving to BC and taking the ferry to Duncan takes all day and cost is high and then the hotel to stay and, and, and it's a lot of money.

Then I thought you like sailing what about just a simple sailboat live aboard. That is not a problem for me in that I have lived in small spaces most of my life I am use to that. 2) is a sailboat they only answer, no. I could buy an RV there is a year round RV place near Blaine WA, I have been through Blaine many times as a truck driver going to BC.

So I checked that out an RV with a small car, going to Duncan is still $$$$ especially since I want to go every other weekend, and down to Tacoma at least once per month. What about an RV with a medium size power cruiser, plenty of old cruisers I can buy and I don't run the risk of having to be up on deck. There is a marina 5 miles from the RV park but using that marina means I triple the distance I have to go to get to Duncan and I figured the fuel cost per month just to make to trips of 130 miles and that cost suddenly reminded me why I was looking at a sailboat.

The more I break this down looking at other options the money spent on an RV and a place to keep a cruiser, insurance on both, upkeep on both, I realized for that kind of money you could a pretty nice sailboat. Certainly with more up to date instrumentation. If it is newer maybe I won't have to upgrade so much stuff just maintain what I have.

What I am looking at is living at anchor at Suart Island WA. That is a very well protected anchorage and it is only 5 miles from Roach Harbor where there are supplies boat supplies & food supplies and San Juan Island has good internet some brand new on the north side which is only 5 miles from me. If I anchor at Stuart Island it is only 25 miles to Duncan BC and 60 miles down to Tacoma. It's inland waterways so even in bad storms there should not be to many days when it's not a good idea to go see someone.

Sailboats require a lot of maintenance and as far as I see it now by just staying on a sailboat the money I would spend on maintaining two (RV & boat) is better spent on maintaining one. I don't think I will save that much money but I will have more money for up keep.

I am not so worried about the sailing part, I am worried about the up keep part and the internet, I have to have internet to work and I am looking into Irididium Go and will probably try to find people who are at Roche who are already using internet in the area. I can write off the internet as I will be a load broker who is available 24/7, middle of the night wake me up I will find you a load.

I spend most of my reading and watching people fix things, there is one other very big challenge POWER. The NW is not known for lots of sunshine so while solar is usable it probably won't be the main source.

I am still two years away but for me the Army taught me planning, even though as soon as things go wrong your plans go out the window. But planning helps you avoid catastrophic mistakes. Reading gives you good background and what you must learn for someone who has already done it. You can read all day long about jumping out of airplanes but until you do it with someone who has done it for years you don't get it. I think sailing will be the same way.

3) I will look forward to taking time off and sailing down the coast, just sailing, or even up the coast towards Alaska. The real pipedream would be to sail from BC to the Mediterranean all the way to the Holly Land but I would have to be retired retired done with working.

Thank you everyone who has responded, I read everything.

[Papasail]

Gent,,,

I am ex-military, and have spent long years in the medical field: my dream is the same as your own. Knowing Menier’s disease quite well, I am sharing the opinion that this idea of sailing could be quite bad for you. 1. Vertigo and falling off the boat in your waters means you don’t survive. 2. Not knowing when vertigo may occur/ possibly in a very stressful situation (storms), adds complexity and danger to an already difficult situation. 3. Your (salt) intake is a key factor, and between watermakers (lack of mineral content), and dehydration from wind & sun, you will have a poor chance of maintaining a homeostatic mineral balance.
4. Induced vertigo from continuous motion, and seasickness will likely affect you (at some point). 5. A smaller vessel will rock more than a larger vessel... if you pick a vessel against my advice, pick a sailboat with a calm sea motion = (Pacific Seacraft). 6. Who will you have to help you if you are alone? This is inherently dangerous given your condition. While single-handing a vessel is not uncommon, it raises stress levels right away, and leaves you with fewer breaks and time to get fully rested.

Why not go at this from a different angle: make sailing friends (now), and go sailing.... go (often!), one nice afternoon trip won’t help you understand how you may tolerate living full time on a boat. Even better than that, find people who handle rough conditions, and go with them. Test yourself against a broad number of other boaters to see how your seasickness compares to theirs... it may teach you that you do fine, or possibly worse than others. In any event, vertigo in a boat is unsanctionable, and I urge you to “live on land, but have fun with others out at sea”. This will protect your life, and help keep your quality of life in optimal, and realistic, perspective.

Bill

[Joh.Ghurt]

Gent,

have you consider how these anchorages look in winter? Please check them out. If you don't find many live-aboards there during winter, consider that they know what they're doing and you might be missing some details.

As to internet, forget Iridium or any satellite based system (except perhaps for the new Space-X one). Mobile is the only affordable way to go. If you have decent 4G or 5G reception, it's good enough to do video-conferencing.

Don't worry about power. Sure it's nice to have solar panels, but in the end it's just a question in what way money buys you power. With a generator, you exchange diesel-money for power, with crazy big solar-panels, you spend the money on the equipment. Don't drink the eco-cool-aid, run the numbers what works best in the area you plan to be.


I hope you find a solution that fits your desired life-style.

[gent48dd]

Yes, but great question. I am not this sun and fun boater person. The NW nothing but rain lol. Winter ... actually I researched winter San Juan Island history, I have researched how much sun, rain all that. What I found difficult to research was "seas" how rough does the water get and how often. I will leave you with this I have driven a few of the Ice Roads of Canada, worked as a driver for a company 10 miles from the Canadian border in ND, lived and worked in -40 temps for days on end, basically 32 degrees is T-shirt weather.

I am from NM born and raised which is a great place for weather, but I have worked for 8 years in Iraq where waking up it was 95 and by noon you were at 120+. I adapted, came home and was back again driving through Canada. I can adapt to anything BUTTTTT here is what will be the challenge for me. MY x always noticed this about me, probably has something to do where I was born and raised, when it gets cloudy and dark and rains, and rains, I have problems mentally. My x once said you have difficulty not seeing the sun. I think she is correct, I have noticed that about myself; NW what sun? lol, I will struggle at first, I struggled when I went to Iraq with the heat ( we actually had a few days over 140) ended up staying 8 years. If life is always perfect, I know that is what people strive for, perfect does not mean to me perfect weather or perfect anything. Non-perfect is what is perfect for me because it means that I am a live and I am always having to adjust. Solar panels are not going to provide a lot in the NW. I have researched hours of sun per day over the past 10 years, solar is not a good choice, but Wind power is, you always have to have a good generator

[gent48dd]

where there is a will, there is a way, you have to think about it. What you are thinking about is that you sail into a place and check your internet. I am talking about living at anchor in a place that has spotty internet. Soooo by the equipment hike it up up the hill and establish you own network. This is not like a cruiser who moves, I am living on a boat at anchor. Does that mean I don't sail around Noooo, I do look I am living where it is easy to see whales, I am surrounded by beautiful mountains, beautiful water. So build what you need, I don't think anyone say a thing about seeing a big sat dish placed on top of the mountain, I am not talking about direct TV sat dish, I mean a sat dish 8 feet across. and then just share it with anyone in Reid Harbor. Simply ask they contribute 10-15 bucks a month for using it. I will be making enough money to pay for it all so I use the money I charge for charity. I am not worried about the internet, I was in the beginning, when I first wrote this post. I am far worried about what boat and my ability to handle that boat, the IT side of this will work itself out.