State of Living Aboard in Florida

[Montanan]

FYI:

In 2009, Florida lawmakers ruled that only the state, not municipalities, could regulate anchoring, though local governments retained the right to govern liveaboards.

Not all marinas allow liveaboards.

Sometimes it's a case of their government permit not allowing permanent residents on boats in the marina.

Reference to a listing of Florida Liveaboard Marinas:
https://www.living-aboard.com/florid...d-marinas.html


In South Florida particularly there has been an ongoing `war' waged on liveaboards for years. Florida Statutes specifically address liveaboards. One of the most important among them is allowing local government authorities to enact and enforce regulations restricting or prohibiting live-aboard vessels (except for the Intracoastal Waterway), and in marked boundaries of mooring fields. In federally managed areas like Biscayne National Park the Code of Federal Regulations governs and a special use permit is required to moor for more than 14 consecutive days or more than 30 days within a calendar year.

Advisory Legal Opinion - Definition of live-aboard vessels


"Live-aboard vessels" are defined for purposes of Chs. 327 and 328, F.S., in s. 327.02(13), F.S. (1984 Supp.), in the following terms:

"(13) "Live-aboard vessel" means:

(a) Any vessel used solely as a residence;

or

(b) Any vessel represented as a place of business, a professional or other commercial enterprise, or a legal residence.

A commercial fishing boat is expressly excluded from the term 'live-aboard vessel.'"

From this alternative statutory definition, it clearly appears that a vessel can be a "live-aboard vessel" under s. 327.02(13)(b), F.S. (1984 Supp.), even if it is not used solely as a residence, as long as it is "represented as a place of business, a professional or other commercial enterprise, or a legal residence."

A "legal residence" is a location where a person is presently living with the present intention of making it his permanent abode. Minick v. Minick, 149 So. 483 (Fla. 1933); Wade v. Wade, 113 So. 374 (Fla. 1927). And see Walker v. Harris, 398 So.2d 955, 958 (4 D.C.A. Fla., 1981), stating: "A person may have several temporary local residences, but can have only one legal residence. A legal residence, or domicile, is the place where a person has fixed an abode with the present intention of making it their [sic] permanent home." See also Black's Law Dictionary 807 (5th Ed. 1979), defining "legal residence" as "[p]ermanent fixed place of abode which person intends to be his residence and to which he intends to return despite . . . temporary absences." While subjective intention is the best evidence of "legal residence," Florida courts have clearly recognized that residence may be established by objective facts as well. See Brown v. Brown, supra, at 383, stating that "residence is a matter of objective fact." See also Walker v. Harris, supra, at 958, stating that, although subjective intent is the best proof of domicile, "[t]his is not to suggest that proof of legal residence cannot be measured by objective factors[.]"

Therefore, I am of the opinion that vessels which are used as a person's primary residence may be "live-aboard vessels" for purposes of municipal regulation permitted by s. 327.60(2), F.S., even though they are not used solely as a residence but are also used for recreational purposes, if such vessels are represented as such person's "legal residence" pursuant to s. 327.02(13)(b), F.S. (1984 Supp.), and that the determination of whether such vessels are represented as a person's legal residence may be based on a combination of the person's subjective intent and objective facts.



327.60 Local regulations; limitations.—
(1) The provisions of this chapter and chapter 328 shall govern the operation, equipment, and all other matters relating thereto whenever any vessel shall be operated upon the waters of this state or when any activity regulated hereby shall take place thereon.
(2) This chapter and chapter 328 do not prevent the adoption of any ordinance or local regulation relating to operation of vessels, except that a county or municipality may not enact, continue in effect, or enforce any ordinance or local regulation:
(a) Establishing a vessel or associated equipment performance or other safety standard, imposing a requirement for associated equipment, or regulating the carrying or use of marine safety articles;
(b) Relating to the design, manufacture, or installation of any marine sanitation device on any vessel, except as authorized in subsection (4);
(c) Regulating any vessel upon the Florida Intracoastal Waterway;
(d) Discriminating against personal watercraft;
(e) Discriminating against airboats, for ordinances adopted after July 1, 2006, unless adopted by a two-thirds vote of the governing body enacting such ordinance;
(f) Regulating the anchoring of vessels outside the marked boundaries of mooring fields permitted as provided in s. 327.40, except for:
1. Live-aboard vessels; and
2. Commercial vessels, excluding commercial fishing vessels;
(g) Regulating engine or exhaust noise, except as provided in s. 327.65; or
(h) That conflicts with any provisions of this chapter or any amendments thereto or rules adopted thereunder.
(3) This section does not prohibit local governmental authorities from the enactment or enforcement of regulations that prohibit or restrict the mooring or anchoring of floating structures, live-aboard vessels, or commercial vessels, excluding commercial fishing vessels, within their jurisdictions or of any vessels within the marked boundaries of mooring fields permitted as provided in s. 327.40.
(4)(a) A local government may enact and enforce regulations that require owners or operators of vessels or floating structures subject to the marine sanitation requirements of s. 327.53 to provide proof of proper sewage disposal by means of an approved sewage pumpout service, approved sewage pumpout facility, or approved waste reception facility when anchored or moored for more than 10 consecutive days within the following areas:
1. Marked boundaries of a permitted mooring field under the jurisdiction of the local government;
2. No-discharge zones as published in Volume 53, No. 13 of the Federal Register, page 1678 (1988); Volume 64, No. 164 of the Federal Register, pages 46390-46391 (1999); and Volume 67, No. 98 of the Federal Register, pages 35735-35743 (2002); or
3. No-discharge zones established pursuant to 40 C.F.R. s. 1700.10.
(b) Before a local government may adopt an ordinance to enact and enforce such regulations, the local government must ensure that there are approved sewage pumpout services, approved sewage pumpout facilities, or approved waste reception facilities available within its jurisdiction. Any ordinance adopted pursuant to this subsection may not take effect until reviewed and approved as consistent with this subsection by the commission.
(c) This subsection does not prohibit a local government from enacting or enforcing such sewage pumpout requirements for live-aboard vessels, floating structures, and commercial vessels, excluding commercial fishing vessels, within any areas of its jurisdiction.
(d) The commission may adopt rules to implement this subsection.
(5) A local government may enact and enforce regulations to implement the procedures for abandoned or lost property that allow the local law enforcement agency to remove a vessel affixed to a public dock within its jurisdiction that is abandoned or lost property pursuant to s. 705.103(1). Such regulation must require the local law enforcement agency to post a written notice at least 24 hours before removing the vessel.

Snipet from CruisersNet https://cruisersnet.net/florida-mari...0Florida%20Law.

In Florida, the law defines liveaboards as persons who stay aboard their vessels for 10 days out of any 30 calendar days. Those days do not need to be contiguous. That is the *only* definition under Florida Law. The fact that you are not a Florida Resident, do not receive mail at the marina, intend to leave in 60 or 90 or 120 days and are transient, etc., etc., has nothing to do with it. If you stay aboard, the clock is running in Florida on your liveaboard status.
The short story…
Riparian Lands (tidal lands up to the mean high tide line) are held in trust for the people of Florida by the State of Florida, and this trust is administered by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission. Since the bottom land is public, to operate a marina in Florida, on Riparian Lands, the operator must get a lease from the State to do so. The lease, like any lease, specifies what services the marina can offer. One of these services is “liveaboard” tenants. The state has been loathe over the past 30 years to allow startup or new marinas to provide liveaboard services.

[Corvidae]

Originally Posted by ScottyMR

Milton Friedman
Thomas Sowell
Walter Williams

Friedman, who Machiavelli would call if he needed an economist. Sowell, who the GoP calls to excuse Reagan, Williams, who the right calls to excuse slavery.

Really batting a hundred there if you're looking for the amoral and overrated economists in history. All you missed was Mises.

They're not only wrong, the blindness to negative externalities of their policies is willful and malicious. Which explains their adoration on the right.

[SUNCAT365]

Originally Posted by dwedeking2

I used to live aboard at Beach Marine in jax Beach. They're under new ownership but from the pictures seemed to have plenty of space if they still accept liveaboards.

You just have to look around.

Their current rate is $25/ft. Twice their rate from not long ago. Not realistic for most liveaboards.

[Tommee]

Hey Scotty, glad to have you on board. I have lived on board my Hans Christian 43 for 30 years & as a single handed Lass, sometimes life is challenging. BUT, I wouldn't change the lifestyle for anything!! I bought her in Fort Lauderdale & even in those days Liveaboards seemed to be frowned upon. I have been in New Zealand for over 20 years & even here, a yachting mega centre, the marinas are increasingly shutting out "nasty vagrant liveaboards!!" However, If you can buy that yacht & make your life on the Ocean, do it while you can. The adventures to be had, the challenges which crop up & test our abilities & sanity, but when overcome (hopefully!) make everything well worth the effort. Personally. I believe that all those who criticise us & treat us like vagrants are in essence jealous of our freedom. We are doing something they would love to do, but can't.
Very good luck to you.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by ScottyMR

Woodland,

If you REALLY want to know, this is where to find out, because they explain it much better than I, and with much more authority...because they are/were highly educated scientists:

Read:
Milton Friedman
Thomas Sowell
Walter Williams

Each were professors of economics. One was a Nobel winner. Two were/are black. All were/are champions of the downtrodden. All have written a ton of books that explain the answers to your questions in simple ways that most all of us can understand. So that's a challenge. Will you read a different perspective? I know you have opinions. Everyone has one or more. Do you have an open mind? And if you don't like to read, they all appear in an astounding number of youtube videos. You are in favor of free education. Watching these guys on youtube will give you a virtually free education...gotta pay for internet access and a PC I suppose. And some electricity...so I guess there's no totally free education. But this is a University of Chicago, Stanford, UCLA, Cornell, Harvard, George Mason level education. Kinda hard to turn one's back on a free education of that quality for someone that's pro-free education.

Joseph Mengele was a highly educated scientist too. You seem to be missing the most fundamental point about science - no one (except the popular media) gives a rat's tuckus about name dropping scientists. It is the science itself that matters. Since they were 'highly educated scientists' you ignore the financial meltdown of 2008 - courtesy of the religion of Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan. The entire supply-side & deregulation cult is a gigantic fraud, perpetuated by the rich and powerful in order to become yet richer and more powerful. Nothing more to it than that. And please, don't be a total sucker and fall for the deregulation joke - they want nothing to do with that. They want tons of regulations and laws that favor and enrich them and none to protect the plebes. That is the 'science' of these people.
This cult is out to subdue and crush all but a tiny fraction of the population who hide behind their walled compounds and boardrooms. And, they must crush the government too, because that is probably the only institution that can stop them. The entire 'drown the government in a bathtub' baloney is all about that.
Government is inefficient, often inept, and maddeningly frustrating. But if you think that you would be better off in a world controlled by a handful of enormously powerful corporations - you have already drunk the kool aid.

[timb7734]

Sorry to say but it is a mistake to not register in Florida, and the tax is only 3% to do so with a cap of like 15K. Marinas routinely have enforcement officers walk through, and the fines are not fun.

Documentation is of no help, as on the water, officers still look for the FL sticker if there are no FL numbers displayed.

Also IMHO Fort Pierce is not far enough south for the winter, having spent a few winters at Harbortown Marina and waking up to ice/frost on the docks, definitely having heat running 24/7 for a few weeks.

For some years we spent the summers in Brunswick GA, leaving the boat there, but the temps there are just as bad as southern FL, and you need to join something like an FOP lodge downtown so you can access the pool. There were plans to build one at or near the marina but we haven’t been back for years. We stayed there in the water in the summers as the insurance was 1/2 the cost compared to remaining in FL.

We then lived aboard all winter at Legacy Harbor in Fort Myers as that area has the best mix of weather, available amenities, and population density, but then we stored up river in a building which saved all the UV degradation from sitting in the sun in Georgia.

Today we own a home in Florida so we can live aboard all we want as we do not meet the definition of live aboard.

All that said, north of Fort Lauderdale you will be cold, and south, even on the west coast, winter slips are booked a year in advance in many locations. If you intend to summer in south Florida you better have a/c, for which a dock with power is an attractive choice. Summer dockage, around Fort Myers is half price if you shop, $800 a month for a 50’ boat.

I would try to get situated in a dock over summer and have the marina get to know you, then ask to get in line for the winter.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by timb7734

Sorry to say but it is a mistake to not register in Florida, and the tax is only 3% to do so with a cap of like 15K. Marinas routinely have enforcement officers walk through, and the fines are not fun.

Actually, the use tax in Florida is 6%, with a cap of $18k. But you are right that enforcement officers routinely walk the docks in most areas. If you choose not to register, as you are required to do after 90 days in the state, you are risking significant penalties. And the registration fees are very modest -- less than $200 per year, unless your boat is well over 100'.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by Davy J

Sometimes, ..... It's better to be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

His comments kind of reveal he is a "trust fund baby".

[SUNCAT365]

Originally Posted by squarpeg

I am at Fernandina Beach Marina. It just reopened. $20ft. dockside... $500month for a mooring. There is space here. It is still shallow on the inside dock, but they have deeper slips. Must put up with pollution but the town is great. Cold in winter but if at the dock you can run electric heat. I am not personally living aboard but there are people doing it. I think you can find a spot to settle into in North Florida without much issue. I would never tell a marina I was a live aboard. Just ask if they have a slip for a couple months. See how you like it. If good just tell them you'd like to stay a few more months. Your goal is to be the perfect tenant. Doubtful they ever ask you to leave.

I've seen people asked to leave after just a few days like this.

[SUNCAT365]

Originally Posted by cdy

In Florida - boats are easy to find - its the slips that are difficult - find the slip first - then the boat

Liveaboard possibilties:
Ortega River - Jacksonville
St Augustine - several marinas
Green Cove - Reynolds Marina
Daytona- several
Titusville- Municipal Marina _ waiting list
Merritt Island ( Harbortown)
Ft Pierce - a couple

Ortega limited somehwat after the 1st (fixed) bridge.

[SUNCAT365]

sigh sigh sigh sigh sigh sigh

[WeeFerg]

Halifax Harbor marina in Daytona Beach has many live-aboards AND has at-slip pumpouts, which is a terrific service and is free to dock holders.We've lived here off-and-on since 2002 and always happy to return from cruising. It's always been a friendly marina to us.
We also stayed for varying lengths of time in Jax Beach and liked it and Titusville, not quite as much.
Beware of Cocoa Village area, it has (or, at least until last year had) a major rat problem, even on the southern anchorage.
Rent at H.H.M. has been about $600 pm. for a 42 foot boat.
Also, by the way, the I95 is right on the doorstep for GA.
It's a small town with big town facilities.
(To the Town Manager: I'm available for advertising consultations if you would like.)

(On a TOTALLY unrelated point: the boat will be going up for sale soon, unfortunately!)
Be happy to meet you and show you around and answer any questions.

[Nani Kai]

Has anyone mentioned the additional, fairly expensive, boat insurance costs for keeping a boat in Florida (which is outside the hurricane box for most insurers)? Also, you'll be nailed with a one time sales tax, or maybe it's an excise tax, for keeping your boat for more than 90 days in Florida.

FYI, we spent three quiet weeks in Titusville Marina in December 2019 and loved everything about it: the property, staff, bathrooms and laundry facilities, proximity to town for food, drink and a variety of welcoming churches, and the rockets blasting off from nearby Cape Canaveral.

[zemurray]

I dont believe you have to pay the state sales tax when registering the boat in FL if you have proof that you paid another state the sales tax when you bought the boat.

It’s not expensive to register a boat in FL, ours is registered there and I live out of state. The insurance is dependent on the value of your boat. our policy is reasonable, but I have a stated value of 35k, so not a lot.

[sailorboy1]

I didn't pay sales tax when i moved to Fl and my insurance didn't increase more that normally did in a year.