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Old 01-10-2019, 23:45   #1
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small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Hi Folks,

I LOVE big boats! (say - 50 to 60ft) The larger the "better". Less shaky, less nervous - every movement is slower and gives me time to think
And I hate harbors - prefer the anchor.

BUT of course it stresses out or maybe even might freighten tiny, unexperienced persons with the vast force of its mass und wind.

now - given a certain budget, is it better to sail a smaller boat or a larger (old) boat. Is living space more important than speed and ease of handling?

to what level can a big boat be made (easy handling and cost efficient)... large bunkers, hull prepared to sit on dry land (cleaning hull), ketch for smaller sails... etc etc ...
avoid labor intensive materials like teak deck, wooden applications etc

are there people who regret having a big (old) boat?

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Old 02-10-2019, 00:00   #2
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Hey there, a couple of things you might have wrong in your thinking... I have a big, old boat (Amel supermaramu, the 'delos' boat). 26 years old, and it has everything made to sail two up. I can single hand her easily as well, just docking is hard single, tho the bow thruster takes the pressure off. Electric furlers on main and genoa, windlass controls from the cockpit, everything led back to cockpit in fact. Easier to sail than most boats, including much smaller ones. Also, boat speed is related to length, so smaller boats are slower than bigger ones as a general rule.
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Old 02-10-2019, 02:59   #3
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

I agree with Sojourner, we sailed an older 55ft boat 40,000nm. It was easily handled by a couple in their late 60's and my wife could park it anywhere.

The real advantage was the three times we were caught off-shore by bad weather, F8 to F10 gales and storms...The boat was rock solid in 25+ft waves and took care of her crew so well that my wife stood her night watches alone.

I once crossed the English Channel, in a F8 gale, in a Beneteau 30 and found it alot more uncomfortable.
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Old 02-10-2019, 04:23   #4
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Well a 30 foot beneteau is a hell of a lot smaller than a 55 footer. Can't compare the two.


I'm a big believer in light(er) boats - from handling, to being able to rise above the waves instead of smacking into them, better performance so your passages are usually shorter, plus the loads on a lighter boat are much less than on a similar sized heavy boat.



Speaking of handling - I took a new Amel 50 out for a test drive and asked the other two on board to step aside and let me do everything. I could leave the doc (med stern to mooring ), unfurl, reef and dock the boat again with ease, all on my own.



it's a new boat, new design, big wide stern, twin rudders, but I would gladly take it across the ocean tomorrow if they gave me the keys.



Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer View Post
I agree with Sojourner, we sailed an older 55ft boat 40,000nm. It was easily handled by a couple in their late 60's and my wife could park it anywhere.

The real advantage was the three times we were caught off-shore by bad weather, F8 to F10 gales and storms...The boat was rock solid in 25+ft waves and took care of her crew so well that my wife stood her night watches alone.

I once crossed the English Channel, in a F8 gale, in a Beneteau 30 and found it alot more uncomfortable.
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Old 02-10-2019, 07:06   #5
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

rise above the waves... sounds romantic - but what about seasickness?
is "smacking" through not easier for your stomack?


I am 100% "seaworthy" - but endless up n down is still getting on my nerves some time...
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Old 02-10-2019, 07:37   #6
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Download the now free Cruising Encyclopedia from Steve and Linda Dashew. My Sundeer 64 is long but narrow and light.

If budget is a constraint then I always recommend an old Bene Oceanis 50; the one designed by Bruce Farr with 4 heads. A little remodeling to turn a head into a pantry and another into a workshop and you can set off. These are affordable because they are ex charter.
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Old 02-10-2019, 07:44   #7
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

wow.


Envy you I do now


VERY nice boat.
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Old 02-10-2019, 09:27   #8
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

We ALL love big boats, and every one of us would have one if "real life" could be disregarded. A few of us can do so, but most of us can not. We are constrained by the fact that displacement - and therefore OWNERSHIP COSTS - increase roughly to the third power of an increase in length.

So consider that in going from 30 feet to 40 feet the increase in ownership costs is 1.3 x 1.3 x 1.3 is 2.2 times. Going from 30 feet to 60 feet, the increase in ownership cost is 2 x 2 x 2 = 8 times. That is EIGHT times, The difficulty is never the finding of the money to BUY a boat. The difficulty is always in finding the money to OWN a boat!

There are also many considerations in regard to accommodations that are NOT well considered in the currently fashionable gin palaces. These deficiencies of concept are not, however, obvious to most first time buyers and novice sailors, which is why the factories can continue to sell the gin palaces.

Specify just exactly what it is you want your boat to do FOR you, and we'll be able to say something sensible about what sort of boat will be optimum for you.

Besten Grüss :-)

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Old 02-10-2019, 10:40   #9
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Sorry... I posted this wrongly in another thread ofmine:



.. What i want.. A bit exagerated:


- the largest 2 up boat Under 20m That we Are able to handle With ease.



- a heavy Ship that will plow through thin ICE as If it were nothing


- a Tank With outmost comfort possible in heavy seas and strom


- unsinkable If capaized


- a nobrainer when hitting trees floating With 7kn


- a spacy... Not luxuriös... Liveaboard With large bunkers for outmost autarky


- strong engine for any Kind of Situation



After STUDIYING some Yacht Design i came up With 15m steel Ketch With long keel, piilothouse and two Helms.


BUT my Budget... 100k - 150k leads me to old boats which Are mostly motorsailers which i assume to sail Too terrible..?!
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Old 02-10-2019, 13:41   #10
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Selbstgenügsamkeit (self-sufficiency in English) is asking for a bit much :-) PARTICULARLY if you're gonna go ploughing through thin ice. It appears to me that you are asking for something you just will never get on a budget of “100K – 150K” What kind of money are you talking? US$? DDK? DMs? Euros?

So here is, ad seriatim, a brief reply to each of your points:

“the largest 2 up boat Under 20m That we Are able to handle With ease.”

A 20M (65 foot) sail boat is not difficult to handle for two COMPETENT people PROVIDED it is PROPERLY rigged. I can do it singlehanded, but it requires a degree of caution and forehandedness that novices do not generally have. If you are talking powerboat or MS in power mode, there really isn't anything to the BOAT HANDLING, particularly on passage. Seamanship is a kettle of fish of a different colour!


“A heavy Ship that will plow through thin ICE as If it were nothing”

Why would you want to do that? Just where are you going to go? If you are going to be hanging out in the Baltic, why plan for something that you will not be encountering? If you are thinking of Svalbard, maybe you are getting a little ahead of yourself. I doubt that you'll be getting to Queen Maud Land for many a year.


“ A Tank With outmost comfort possible in heavy seas and strom”

Comfort in heavy going has nothing to do with being a “tank”. It has to do with some fundamental design parameters that you will learn about if you read Skeene's, and with the interior arrangements of the vessel. Physical strength and integrity obviously are also important, but as you learn more about yacht design and construction you'll begin to understand how that's achieved, and that steel construction is not necessarily an advantage.

“ unsinkable If capaized”

There is NO boat that is “unsinkable if capsized”. Even if there were, you would not live long aboard it once you are butt over teakettle, so this desideratum is entirely spurious. You will want to consider carefully just what it is that capsizes boats. Read Miles and Beryl Smeeton's Once is Enough. And talk to some people here who have "seen the elephant".


“a nobrainer when hitting trees floating With 7kn”

Why would you hit “trees floating with 7kn”? I sail in waters that are infested with floating logs. I've never hit a log.


“a spacy... Not luxuriös... Liveaboard With large bunkers for outmost autarky”

“Autarky” depends on having STORAGE space not on having a “spacy live aboard”. A certain catering to bodily comfort is obviously required, but that is really the least of it if it is Selbstgenügsamkeit you are after. There is no reason you shouldn't have a comfy, spacious double bunk conducive to the “maintenance of relationships” while you are in harbour or on the hook. But never forget that comfort while you are ON PASSAGE demands a single bunk no wider than 700mm and fitted with a lee-cloth to keep your dreams from being interrupted by your hitting the deck sole with enuff force to do you a serious injury :-)!

“Bunkers” (tanks) are NEVER sufficient — except that they can take space away from other things that may be MORE necessary :-)! You will find that diesels, of the size that can be in question here, use about 2 litres per ten horsepower per hour. So given that you have a solid voyage plan in mind, and know your available horsepower, you can now work out just exactly how much fuel you'll need to carry.

“- strong engine for any Kind of Situation”

All modern engines are “strong”, perhaps with the exception of the “marinized” engine BMW put out many years ago. Again, Skeene's will teach you something about the horsepower required for various displacements. In English as in German it is necessary to distinguish between the concepts of “powerful” and “durable”. The former is a function of selection, the latter a function of design and manufacture.

“After STUDIYING some Yacht Design i came up With 15m steel Ketch With long keel, piilothouse and two Helms”

Yes, that is fine :-) While not fitted with a pilot house in their original configuration, you may want to contemplate a Colin Archer type of hull and rig. Heavy. Ketch rig. Designed to handle the weather (and the ice) off the coast of Norway. Ancient design. By one of the best. And never forget that Neptune's propensity for poking you with his trident is just the same now as it was in Colin Archer's time!

"BUT my Budget... 100k - 150k leads me to old boats which Are mostly motorsailers which i assume to sail Too terrible..?"

Bear in mind that crossing oceans in small boats under power is a pain, not the kind of thing sensible men do except on a dare. Or for handsome wage. It takes SAIL to do so satisfactorily, so MSs are not, in my opinion, the way to go. But then, when it comes down to it, the vessel I prefer for crossing oceans is the Airbus 320 :-)!

It sounds as if you might like to spend a few bux on signing up for a "Crooze'n'Learn" job. The Hanse factory is in Greifswald, I believe, so I'd imagine there is also a sailing school. Spend a few Euros with them before you commit to the ownership of a boat of your own :-)!

Cheers

TP
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Old 02-10-2019, 21:18   #11
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway View Post
rise above the waves... sounds romantic - but what about seasickness?
is "smacking" through not easier for your stomack?


I am 100% "seaworthy" - but endless up n down is still getting on my nerves some time...
This is correct. The lighter the boat, the more motion you will have, all else being equal. It is a simple matter of momentum. The heavier the boat, the more momentum it will have, and will be less thrown about by the seas. As I said, all else being equal or as near equal as possible.

The issue is that for the heavier boat you will need more mechanical advantage in the form of bigger winches, bigger motor, bigger sails, etc., to maximize speed and ease of handling. But the lighter boat will always be a bit faster and easier to handle, no matter what you do.

"You pays yer money and you takes yer choice".
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Old 03-10-2019, 01:46   #12
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Thank you tp for your detailed answer. I appreciate That. Some Things i Second 100% some Not.

If you ve never Hit a log.. You were lucky. There are storues about sunken yachts in canada Due to this.


There also stories about yachts motoring 12h through the night in heavy storm against Wind and current because the engine was Not strong enough to get them 2nm into a harbor.


Thanks for assuring me That Too heavy motorsailers Are Not the right Thing... I know.. Deep in my heart That you Are right... Although i like them...
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Old 03-10-2019, 06:01   #13
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer View Post
I agree with Sojourner, we sailed an older 55ft boat 40,000nm. It was easily handled by a couple in their late 60's and my wife could park it anywhere.

The real advantage was the three times we were caught off-shore by bad weather, F8 to F10 gales and storms...The boat was rock solid in 25+ft waves and took care of her crew so well that my wife stood her night watches alone.

I once crossed the English Channel, in a F8 gale, in a Beneteau 30 and found it alot more uncomfortable.
Other than pointing out the obvious this post sounds rather political in other ways. Let's talk about the stress of boat size when fixing things. On any bigger boat that stress can be all encompassing. At least on the water I can assuage my stress with decisions to avoid sailing in places known to be troublesome. Putting off replacing the standing rigging on the larger boat comes with the stress of costing vastly more which only adds to the stress of sailing after not replacing it. We all have our dream boats that we'd own if we were blessed with deeper pockets but few are in this position. I assume if the asker were there would be no need for the asking.
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Old 04-10-2019, 03:58   #14
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Re: small, light boat or large and heavy boat?

Another thing ocures to me just this minuten while reading Priciples of yacht design "local hydrodynamic loads".


they had a look at 6 yachts, which fell from high crests (at least 3m) into the through and hull structure was damaged due to the pressure load.


steel - smallest buckle.
Wood and plastic - delaminated or cracked.
alu - larger buckle


now - with the argument earlier of small boats "rising with the waves" - they will also fall deeper. Going "through" waves will result in less force when hitting the waves bottom.


...cool book!...
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