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Old 01-08-2020, 19:28   #106
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

Btw we know couples who sleep both while the boat navigates "by herself".


I do not recommend this attitude.


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Old 01-08-2020, 19:32   #107
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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
The post before yours from boatman61 states he did a 2400 nm delivery of someone else's boat single-handed. And he has no idea if he's covered by insurance. And yet the very next post - the one quoted above - more or less says "I've never seen singlehanders act more irresponsible than other cruisers."

Call me rigid but standing a proper watch while underway is not optional in my book. Singlehanded or crewed. It's like saying it's okay to drive impaired if it's not possible to get a ride home from the bar. Lack of an accident is not evidence of responsible behavior.
Lack of an accident is not evidence of irresponsible behavior either..
The only time either is provable is when there's an accident and that requires irresponsible behavior from both parties.
Riddle me this.. If a yacht motor sailing at 6kts in calm seas and good visibility with 4 crew on board T-bones a boat under sail doing 3 knots with just one on board who is irresponsible???
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Old 01-08-2020, 21:20   #108
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
...I certainly know of no data that suggests single-handers have a higher incidence of accidents. If you do, please share...
Data? Nor do I, but anecdotally I can think of several wrecks or serious collisions of vessels while being singlehanded. These are all sailors I know personally and most of whom I spoke with after the accident. I am sure that there are many fully crewed boats which run aground and are lost or get in collisions, I just haven't met them.
  • Australia, in the 90's. Single hander, a friend of mine, ran straight on to the beach while sleeping and lost the boat.
  • Hawaii, in the mid 2000's. Not singlehanding, but a blind sailor with a non-sailing friend on board who was operating the vessel. Ran straight on the beach and lost the boat.
  • Argentina, in the late 1990's, singlehander lost the boat on the beach during a round the world cruise. This guy also lost a second boat, while singlehanding.
  • Mexico, Late 2016 (or so) single hander rounding Pta Mita in broad daylight, ran hard into a MARKED ROCK. Did not lose the boat but seriously damaged it.
  • Mexico, early 2000's.now famous single hander sailing up the coast, at night, ran onto the beach and lost the boat.
  • Mexico, Late 2010's single hander approaching an anchorage at night, unable to make out the actual location of the anchorage, ran straight onto the ground, lost the boat.
  • Mexico Sea of Cortez, 2018 or so, Single hander did not show up at destination. Pieces of his vessel later found on the shore. No sign of skipper

I too have had encounters with vessels, usually at night, sailing or motoring on a collision course with me and I was unable to raise them on the radio or by spotlight at close range. We avoided them. I view all of these incidents as being avoidable with proper lookout.
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Old 01-08-2020, 21:34   #109
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Data? Nor do I, but anecdotally I can think of several wrecks or serious collisions of vessels while being singlehanded.
Thanks Wing. A sad set of tales indeed. But as you say, it wouldn't be hard to generate a list of equivalent events where there were multiple crew on board. This is the problem with anecdotal evidence. It doesn't really advance the cause of knowledge much.

I personally think it is reasonable to state single-handing is generally more risky than sailing with more than one. And yes, I agree it will very likely put the sailor in contravention of law. My quibble is not over these factors. I simply take exception to the accusation that this necessarily makes the solo sailor "irresponsible."
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Old 01-08-2020, 21:45   #110
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

i personally also have trouble with the term "irresponsible" this implies that the solo sailor is somehow not being responsible...to who ? for what ?

certainly a solo passage is dangerous...quite probably illegal at some point, but how is this 'irresponsible' ?

drunk driving is 'irresponsible' as you may harm somebody else. solo sailing boats our type / size is extremely unlikely to harm anybody other than the sailor, and this i respectfully suggest is absolutely no-one else's business. if a solo sailor piles up on a reef, wrecks his boat and drowns, that's his / her privilege. what business is it of yours ?

as far as deliveries are concerned : i have had solo sailors deliver my boats, and would do so again. provided the skipper & owner both know and agree : so what ?
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Old 02-08-2020, 00:07   #111
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Your kidding, right? An owner would knowingly let you shove off alone in their boat for a multi-day run? Insured?
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Its 2500 miles.. as for the insurance company being aware I have not a clue.. thats the owners choice and responsibility as stated in my contract.. In Red.
.................
As the boat owner in question, allow me to provide the facts.

The boat was un-insured except for third part liability. To explain further, insurance is all about risk assessment. I elected to carry out my own risk assessment and as a result, elected for no further insurance except as stated.

The basis of risk assessment is to identify the likelihood of an event and the potential cost of the event. Compounded together forms the risk. To put it simply, a low cost occurring often event is the same as high cost occurring rarely event. Yes it is more complex than this simplification but this is the basis risk assessment.

In the scenario presented by Boatie's voyage, there were the following possible events to consider.

- Loss of boat (due to weather, hull integrity etc) - possible but unlikely - cost was the value of the boat.

- Loss of Boatie's life - less likely than loss of boat - cost (to me) was the potential loss of boat.

- Third party damage due to collision by way of Boatie being not on watch - extremely unlikely given the nature of shipping in the waters in which he was sailing. Cost would be loss of my boat, Boatie's life and some paint off a ship.

I could carry the lost of the boat (although sound and fit for the trip, it was small plywood boat after all, so replacement cost was low).

Boatie's life was worth ........... But he was taking the risk in this regard, not me.

In the extremely unlikely event of a collision with a ship in those waters, it would be very hard to prove that Boatie was not at the helm at the time so there was almost zero chance I would be responsible for repainting a scratch on the bows or removing the remainder of the rigging fouled in the ship's anchor.

The only other extremely remote vanishingly small possibility of liability would be Boatie being asleep at the time of a collision with another small boat. For this to occur, both small boats would have failed at keeping a watch. So that makes it even way less likely then extremely remote vanishingly small possibility. However, to cover for this never going to happen chance, Boatie could flick on the radar and set up the alarm ring.

Life is not risk free and insurance doesn't make it so but we can assess some of the risks and act accordingly.
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Old 02-08-2020, 04:17   #112
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pirate Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Data? Nor do I, but anecdotally I can think of several wrecks or serious collisions of vessels while being singlehanded. These are all sailors I know personally and most of whom I spoke with after the accident. I am sure that there are many fully crewed boats which run aground and are lost or get in collisions, I just haven't met them.
  • Australia, in the 90's. Single hander, a friend of mine, ran straight on to the beach while sleeping and lost the boat.
  • Hawaii, in the mid 2000's. Not singlehanding, but a blind sailor with a non-sailing friend on board who was operating the vessel. Ran straight on the beach and lost the boat.
  • Argentina, in the late 1990's, singlehander lost the boat on the beach during a round the world cruise. This guy also lost a second boat, while singlehanding.
  • Mexico, Late 2016 (or so) single hander rounding Pta Mita in broad daylight, ran hard into a MARKED ROCK. Did not lose the boat but seriously damaged it.
  • Mexico, early 2000's.now famous single hander sailing up the coast, at night, ran onto the beach and lost the boat.
  • Mexico, Late 2010's single hander approaching an anchorage at night, unable to make out the actual location of the anchorage, ran straight onto the ground, lost the boat.
  • Mexico Sea of Cortez, 2018 or so, Single hander did not show up at destination. Pieces of his vessel later found on the shore. No sign of skipper

I too have had encounters with vessels, usually at night, sailing or motoring on a collision course with me and I was unable to raise them on the radio or by spotlight at close range. We avoided them. I view all of these incidents as being avoidable with proper lookout.
These sound more like very bad navigational decisions than failure to keep a watch.. they sailed too close to shore and paid the price..
If they did that and compounded it by going to sleep they were not irresponsible, they were suicidely stupid.
I remember an incident in the late 80's when four former officers (navy and airforce) all well RYA qualified made the run from Portsmouth to Cherbourg and ran into the rocky coastline at the E end of the Peninsula.. how many fully crewed merchant or navy ships are in collisions or run aground.
Bad decisions are not the exclusive territory of the solo sailor but he makes a handy whipping post.
I called him on the VHF but he did not answer and I had to change course to avoid him.. Kinda passing the buck.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:22   #113
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

I was reading the thread, and fell asleep.

When I awoke I found it had crashed.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:49   #114
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Data? Nor do I, but anecdotally I can think of several wrecks or serious collisions of vessels while being singlehanded. These are all sailors I know personally and most of whom I spoke with after the accident. I am sure that there are many fully crewed boats which run aground and are lost or get in collisions, I just haven't met them.
  • Australia, in the 90's. Single hander, a friend of mine, ran straight on to the beach while sleeping and lost the boat.
  • Hawaii, in the mid 2000's. Not singlehanding, but a blind sailor with a non-sailing friend on board who was operating the vessel. Ran straight on the beach and lost the boat.
  • Argentina, in the late 1990's, singlehander lost the boat on the beach during a round the world cruise. This guy also lost a second boat, while singlehanding.
  • Mexico, Late 2016 (or so) single hander rounding Pta Mita in broad daylight, ran hard into a MARKED ROCK. Did not lose the boat but seriously damaged it.
  • Mexico, early 2000's.now famous single hander sailing up the coast, at night, ran onto the beach and lost the boat.
  • Mexico, Late 2010's single hander approaching an anchorage at night, unable to make out the actual location of the anchorage, ran straight onto the ground, lost the boat.
  • Mexico Sea of Cortez, 2018 or so, Single hander did not show up at destination. Pieces of his vessel later found on the shore. No sign of skipper

I too have had encounters with vessels, usually at night, sailing or motoring on a collision course with me and I was unable to raise them on the radio or by spotlight at close range. We avoided them. I view all of these incidents as being avoidable with proper lookout.
Didn't the great Moitessier run his boat on a reef or beach when he was sleeping?

Sleep deprivation is serious. Serious enough that every transportation regulatory agency in the US (and likely all developed countries) have rules in place to prevent driving long hours. Even flight attendants have mandatory rest periods even though they can be damn inconvenient. Sleep deprivation has been long studied and the effects on mental acuity unquestioned. It is one of the most popular forms of torture and annoyance used by nefarious people

Anyone who thinks pilots or surgeons or truck drivers can pull double shifts for days on end and still operate without diminished mental capacity is mistaken. And I think you know that. The thinking is probably along the lines of being 1000s of miles off the shipping lanes and such - what's the harm? Eventually, the person will hit civilization (hopefully figuratively vs literally).

Calling out me instead of singlehanders is interesting. But it does not speak well to your experience. I would think folks who have cruised long distances would be more concerned about watch schedules and the need for rest while underway 24/7. Surprised there are exceptions to the rule and science (well, these days, maybe not surprised anymore. Science seems to be fluid for many)
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:51   #115
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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These sound more like very bad navigational decisions than failure to keep a watch.. they sailed too close to shore and paid the price..
If they did that and compounded it by going to sleep they were not irresponsible, they were suicidely stupid.
I remember an incident in the late 80's when four former officers (navy and airforce) all well RYA qualified made the run from Portsmouth to Cherbourg and ran into the rocky coastline at the E end of the Peninsula.. how many fully crewed merchant or navy ships are in collisions or run aground.
Bad decisions are not the exclusive territory of the solo sailor but he makes a handy whipping post.
I called him on the VHF but he did not answer and I had to change course to avoid him.. Kinda passing the buck.
Isn't it possible the person who made these decisions wasn't stupid or suicidal, but rather mentally and physically exhausted?
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:10   #116
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Isn't it possible the person who made these decisions wasn't stupid or suicidal, but rather mentally and physically exhausted?
Not if they were following a sensible regime and safe practices..
There are many ways to sleep safely but doing it while close enough to shore to run aground is stupid.. were I close enough to do that I would close right in and drop the hook..
As it is I stand well off when doing long passages along a coast.. 5 to 10nm is the norm, sometimes much further if theres a curve in the coastline such as the Biscay or St Vincent to Trafalgar.. and if I go to sleep I change to a safe tack and reef down.
Never could understand coast huggers..
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:32   #117
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Not if they were following a sensible regime and safe practices..
There are many ways to sleep safely but doing it while close enough to shore to run aground is stupid.. were I close enough to do that I would close right in and drop the hook..
As it is I stand well off when doing long passages along a coast.. 5 to 10nm is the norm, sometimes much further if theres a curve in the coastline such as the Biscay or St Vincent to Trafalgar.. and if I go to sleep I change to a safe tack and reef down.
Never could understand coast huggers..
So when these thread pop-up and a couple want to know about watch standing, why not enlighten them on how they can both get some quality sleep - no watch required? FYI-- the last person who did that by suggesting AIS and alarms were sufficient got eviscerated in this forum, probably by some of the same folks who give solo sailors a pass in this thread.
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:34   #118
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Also.. I would be interested to know how many of those 'Beachings' were boats with Wind Steering gear.
Their big fault is when there's a wind shift the boat alters course smoothly with the wind and just 10 degres can create a disaster.
With an electric pilot your woken by slapping sails and change of movement pretty quickly.
As for the 20min catnaps.. thats a way to wear you down fast.. a long watch then reef down and grab a couple of hours a couple or 3 times a day is much better.
Ocean crossing these days is much safer with AIS but.. be aware, commercial shipping has largely given up Radar watch.. most ships I have hailed now say "I see you on my AIS, will pass your stern" or "Stand on we will adjust".
If anyone is considering becoming a singlehander I recommend they invest in an AIS Transceiver, cheap enough and a See and be Seen value.
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:38   #119
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

I'd agree, if you're going to singlehand for longer than you can continuously stand watch, an AIS transceiver and radar are both critical. And make sure the equipment is good and can reliably alarm for anything of concern. And that alarm better be LOUD.
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:53   #120
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So when these thread pop-up and a couple want to know about watch standing, why not enlighten them on how they can both get some quality sleep - no watch required? FYI-- the last person who did that by suggesting AIS and alarms were sufficient got eviscerated in this forum, probably by some of the same folks who give solo sailors a pass in this thread.
Now you are just being silly..
If there's two people the game changes.. Its like asking why you don't have full size goal posts on a 5 a side football pitch.
If you page back you will see I have given my two handed watch system.. if you sailed you'll know the lee berth in the saloon is the off watch berth at sea.. not enough room for two and the forepeak is never used at sea.
What the skipper should do however is make sure the watchkeeper's smart phone is left below decks.. playing games on watch has the same risk as sleeping and makes the 360 scan at night every so often near useless as they're night blind.
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