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Scorpius · 31-07-2020, 15:02

Oops. I seem to have taken this thread 'WAY off topic. My apologies.

chrisr · 31-07-2020, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ahh.. but this is where the hair splitters jump in as technically while hove to you are in fact underway at 1-1.5kts on a certain general heading.
When doing a long solo passage every night I reduce my main to 3rd reef and furl the jib to keep me on my heading at a steady 3-5kts depending on conditions.. I figure the chances of being hit are pretty much the same either way.
Advantages are if it blows a hooli no need to stagger to the mast half asleep.. just furl the jib a bit more.
The only time I have hove to on passage was when my AP died with 1700nm to go then it was heave to around 11pm and rise at dawn to continue.
So far I have died 5 times on solo transats..

Praise the lord for creating resurrection's..

good point, and as you say, 'hair splitting'

but just because i love a good debate with somebody who knows what they are talking about, i believe that a vessel drifting is not 'under way' - esp if NUC. i know the rules say NUC is exceptional circumstances, but crew asleep may meet this definition ! may be wrong, so i'll do some research...

cheers,

chrisr · 31-07-2020, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have had two close calls with Commercial fishing boats, with no one in the wheel house, one I would have been run down had I not changed course. Both times were at night, early hours in the morning actually.
I have no idea if they went below for just a minute, but doubt that as who would with a converging course with another boat that was near by?

imho fishing vessels are the WORST for keeping look out. long after i came ashore, i was running a shipping co. we had a trawler run into the side of one of our ships. trawler was about 20m and ship was 149m. our ship was give way vessel ie we were hit on stb side, but (apart from the obligation to avoid a collision) who in their right mind knowingly runs into the side of a ship in the middle of the ocean !

turned out trawler was on way to fishing grounds and all asleep. all incredibly lucky as if a few seconds earlier, the trawler would have been under the bow, and toast.

despite this, our mate & lookout had to plead guilty to failing to keep proper lookout.

ultimately the trawler was found 50% liable although i don't recall if the crew were also charged with failing to keep lookout

cheers,

**Jim Cate** · 31-07-2020, 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I think it's clear solo sailing bends and breaks some colregs. But that doesn't necessarily make it irresponsible. Not unless you are saying you must be 100% compliant with all the rules all of the time. With this standard you must believe everyone is "irresponsible."

Thanks, Mike! This is exactly the point that I was trying to make, but you said it far better than I did.

And I'm ready to give it away now. For the record, I don't do single handed ocean passages. I believe that I could do so with very little chance of collision or of being brought up for violation of COLREGS. However, I prefer to sail with Ann who both allows following the rules and keeps me on the straight and narrow! But I don't much object to singlehanding per se, and have observed that as a group the SH sailors don't seem to be involved in collisions very often, and that in the matters that count they seem pretty responsible to me.

Jim

**boatman61** · 31-07-2020, 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisr

good point, and as you say, 'hair splitting'

but just because i love a good debate with somebody who knows what they are talking about, i believe that a vessel drifting is not 'under way' - esp if NUC. i know the rules say NUC is exceptional circumstances, but crew asleep may meet this definition ! may be wrong, so i'll do some research...

cheers,

Few boats these days can heave to properly, most fore reach at varying speeds for example on a Sigma 33 I had trouble keeping it down to 3kts with 3rd reef in the main and 1/4 jib.. Less and she was uncontrollable.
You have a cat so dropping sails and drifting downwind stern 3/4 to the wind I guess could be classed NUC as you state, just be well lit.
But.. many will disagree..

**JPA Cate** · 31-07-2020, 16:31

Imho, it was the use of the term "irresponsible" applied to singlehanders as a whole class that got folks riled up. Many of us have friends who are singlehanders.

Here's an example of what I consider irresponsible. It has happened on my watches (midnight to 6-8 a.m.) only about 3 times that i remember. It is when I overtake an unlit sailboat, or cross paths with an unlit ship. On moonless nights, they are damn near invisible, and it might sink you. And no one on watch. The singlehanders we know have lights on, maybe VHF radio, maybe AIS for alarms, maybe radar. But those other guys, well, polite words fail me. For me it was frightening (what if I had not seen them in time to avoid them?), and it made me really angry, too.

For me, it is that the singlehanders do whatever they can to mitigate the risks of the practice, whereas those unlit guys were not, and to me THAT is irresponsible.

Ann, the totally paranoid watch keeper

mvweebles · 31-07-2020, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Imho, it was the use of the term "irresponsible" applied to singlehanders as a whole class that got folks riled up.

I guess I stepped on some toes. But let's be clear: It's either responsible to stand a watch or it's not. There aren't two sets of rules - one for singlehanders, one for everyone else. If folks believe there's a responsible way to stand watch while getting a decent night's sleep, then let's discuss that - regardless of whether you're a singlehander, or have a crew of 12 aboard.

As long as folks took umbrage to the use of 'irresponsible,' what steps should the OP need to take to responsibly operate their boat without a watchstander for 6+ hours out of 24? Let's be specific - how does a boat with any number of crew operate responsibly 24/7 for days on end without a watch stander for roughly 25% of the time? And I'm sorry, I don't buy that they hove-to except when the weather turns to total junk.

Peter

Mike OReilly · 31-07-2020, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Imho, it was the use of the term "irresponsible" applied to singlehanders as a whole class that got folks riled up. Many of us have friends who are singlehanders.

mvweebles · 31-07-2020, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Mike, you're a reasonable guy. What are the responsible watch keeping practices a single hander woildnuse on a 7 day passage that you'd recommend for the OP whether they have two or more persons on the boat?

Kelkara · 31-07-2020, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Mike, you're a reasonable guy. What are the responsible watch keeping practices a single hander woildnuse on a 7 day passage that you'd recommend for the OP whether they have two or more persons on the boat?

My longest passage has only been two nights at sea (not 7) so I don't know how many days I could comfortably continue, but what worked for me was: 5 minutes scanning the horizon, checking the sail trim etc, followed by 15 minutes snoozing ... unless there was a boat in sight (or AIS) with a positive TCPA, in which case keep eyes on it until it has passed ... during daylight it was usually more like 15mins doing things / 5mins resting ... either way the alarm went off every 20 minutes and I recorded what I saw in the log ... once within a few hours of land stay alert until the anchor is down. For passages <=24hrs I just stay awake on watch.

Quote:

Let's be specific - how does a boat with any number of crew operate responsibly 24/7 for days on end without a watch stander for roughly 25% of the time?

Like I said, so far only two nights, but I could do more (although there is presumably a limit). That is my attempt at being "responsible" with my eyes off the horizon for 25+% of the time, but I can't imagine why a double-handed crew would want to try it.

I'm sorry if you feel threatened by it.

mvweebles · 31-07-2020, 18:34

Not threatened at all. Just trying to figure out the parameters of responsible watch keeping. Sleeping for 20 mins, scanning the horizon, and crashing again apparently qualifies.

I spent several years as a delivery skipper moving boats between PNW and Cabo, usually 5+ day runs. If you were the owner of a yacht thinking about entrusting someone with its well being, would you consider that to be a responsible watch schedule?

Peter.

mvweebles · 31-07-2020, 19:01

Last try and y'all can have the last word:

Owner: "so, you're a delivery skipper? I'd like to have my boat delivered from California to Hawaii.,

Skipper:" that's right. I'm very responsible."

Owner:" How many crew do you need to make the trip?"

Skipper:" None. I sleep for 20 minutes, scan the horizon, then go back to sleep. Works great."

Owner: "well, that doesn't sound very responsible."

Skipper: "are you calling me irresponsible? I'm insulted!"

Or let's try this:

Delivery skipper to crew: "I need crew for a 7 day offshore run. What experience do you have standing dog watches?"

Crew: "I'm your guy! I'm really responsible. When I get tired, I just doze for 20 minutes. Works like a charm!"

Peter.

BlackHeron · 31-07-2020, 19:04

So you even know what a "dog watch" is?

**boatman61** · 31-07-2020, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Last try and y'all can have the last word:

Owner: "so, you're a delivery skipper? I'd like to have my boat delivered from California to Hawaii.,

Skipper:" that's right. I'm very responsible."

Owner:" How many crew do you need to make the trip?"

Skipper:" None. I sleep for 20 minutes, scan the horizon, then go back to sleep. Works great."

Owner: "well, that doesn't sound very responsible."

Skipper: "are you calling me irresponsible? I'm insulted!"

Or let's try this:

Delivery skipper to crew: "I need crew for a 7 day offshore run. What experience do you have standing dog watches?"

Crew: "I'm your guy! I'm really responsible. When I get tired, I just doze for 20 minutes. Works like a charm!"

Peter.

Have not yet had an owner question my watchkeeping on a solo delivery.. they tend to be both realistic and pragmatic.