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Old 31-07-2020, 02:56   #61
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

^^^^^

So, Peter, do you stand anchor watch 24/7 as required by COLREGS? That's another inconvenient rule that is often ignored. Do you rail against t hose who fail to follow that one?

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Old 31-07-2020, 03:18   #62
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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The apocryphal stories of ships with yacht rigging hanging from their anchors have one thing in common: no photographic evidence of the story!......
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Really?

Hey Cap'n! ... want a Windex?


... first time I heard the story it was Hong Kong and the top hamper of a junk.......
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Old 31-07-2020, 03:24   #63
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
^^^^^

So, Peter, do you stand anchor watch 24/7 as required by COLREGS?
What rule is that Jim? There are rules about not anchoring in channels and showing shapes/lights and such, but I do not recall one that requires a 24x7 anchor watch. Rule 5? Perhaps - but given anchored vessels are at the bottom of pecking order, and are by definition not in a good position to avoid a collision. In the event of an accident/damage, there are probably a dozen rules that would apply before Rule 5. Not so with single-handed passagemaking where inability to stand a proper watch would likely be #1 cause.

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Old 31-07-2020, 03:33   #64
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Really?

Hey Cap'n! ... want a Windex?


... first time I heard the story it was Hong Kong and the top hamper of a junk.......
As you know, Ping, my vision ain't the best, but I don't see any yacht rigging in that pic.

I've heard the story many times and from many supposed ports, but even in this day of universal phone cameras, no pictures that showed what was alleged to be in plain view have emerged.

Could be out there somewhere, though.

Jim
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Old 31-07-2020, 03:52   #65
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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As you know, Ping, my vision ain't the best, but I don't see any yacht rigging in that pic.

I've heard the story many times and from many supposed ports, but even in this day of universal phone cameras, no pictures that showed what was alleged to be in plain view have emerged.

Could be out there somewhere, though.

Jim
Well..... if you lob up in port with stuff like that strapped across your bow you aren't going to publicise it now are you...

Back in the dream time one of our ships arrived in Burnie with a Brydes(sp?) whale strapped across her bow.... didn't that cause a stink...

No... most times when yachts are run down it is just a paint scrape ... thinking Patanella and the yacht ( name forgotten .. one survivor.. no watch on deck at the time..) run down by this ship off the top of NZ .. see pic below...

Psssst... wanna Windex...? I have a few...
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Old 31-07-2020, 04:01   #66
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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What rule is that Jim? There are rules about not anchoring in channels and showing shapes/lights and such, but I do not recall one that requires a 24x7 anchor watch.

Peter
Why, it is good ole rule 5...

Every vessel shall at ALL TIMES maintain a proper look out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means...

All times means at anchor as well as under way. And commercial vessels follow this rule.

And obviously, yotties don't have the means to do so, and none of us cruising types follow this rule and the authorities seem content with this practice.

My point is that if you condemn folks for failing to follow rule 5 because they are single handing, how can you not condemn them for this transgression, yourself included? The authorities seem just as accepting of single handing as they are about the anchor watch... common practice rather than scrupulous rule minding.

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Old 31-07-2020, 04:26   #67
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Why, it is good ole rule 5...

Every vessel shall at ALL TIMES maintain a proper look out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means...

All times means at anchor as well as under way. And commercial vessels follow this rule.

And obviously, yotties don't have the means to do so, and none of us cruising types follow this rule and the authorities seem content with this practice.

My point is that if you condemn folks for failing to follow rule 5 because they are single handing, how can you not condemn them for this transgression, yourself included? The authorities seem just as accepting of single handing as they are about the anchor watch... common practice rather than scrupulous rule minding.

Jim
The full rule has been parsed. End states this is intended to avoid risk of collision. An anchored vessel has right of way above all others, and can do virtually nothing to avoid a collision so this is a highly technical statement with near zero practical application. Not so with not standing a watch while underway, where (likely) 999 of 1000 Rule 5 offenses are prosecuted.

But I'm surprised Jim given your experience. I would think you'd bristle at the notion that setting various alarms such as radar and AIS is a suitable proxy for standing watch. I would have guessed you would be a bit more traditional than that.

To the OP: sounds like there's a school of thought that 24/7 watches are unnecessary - it's the 'two wrongs make a right' argument. Because people routinely ignore Rule 5 for anchoring (which carries risk so low it's impossible to calculate), it's therefore acceptable to ignore Rule 5 when underway. Get a good night's sleep. Have a nice cup of tea, maybe do some yoga stretches in the morning so you can go on-watch refreshed.

Peter
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Old 31-07-2020, 04:59   #68
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

couple of comments on two topics being discussed ;

- as somebody who ran container ships through asia in the 70's & 80's, i have personal knowledge of arriving in port with bit of fishing junk hanging of the anchors...and we damn sure weren't taking any photos of it !

never knowing involved yachts though (they tended to have lights etc)

- let's not deny that any vessel which is not maintaining a look-out is breaking the regs. the fact that many vessels, of all sizes and types do it does not change the fact that it is a breach of the regs. you get caught, you're going to pay the penalty

a solo sailor knows this and accepts the risk. so what ? we all break laws all the time... again : so $%^& what ? it's not going to hurt anybody else is it ?

as Harry Day, the Royal Flying Corps First World War fighter ace said "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

for the record : i do many solo passages. find i can do abt 36hrs continuous, then need to stop for a kip. if coastal, i'll anchor. if deep sea, i'll heave to, as i'm sure many solo cruisers do (we don't all charge around at 10kts sound asleep !)

only for the rule obsessed, a vessel stopped at sea, showing appropriate not under command lights and / or shapes, while not absolved from keeping a proper look out, is not required to take action to avoid a collision (Rule 18). it's also relevant that if stopped, every other vessel becomes an overtaking vessel and so must keep clear.

cheers,
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Old 31-07-2020, 06:08   #69
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couple of comments on two topics being discussed ;

- as somebody who ran container ships through asia in the 70's & 80's, i have personal knowledge of arriving in port with bit of fishing junk hanging of the anchors...and we damn sure weren't taking any photos of it !

never knowing involved yachts though (they tended to have lights etc)

- let's not deny that any vessel which is not maintaining a look-out is breaking the regs. the fact that many vessels, of all sizes and types do it does not change the fact that it is a breach of the regs. you get caught, you're going to pay the penalty

a solo sailor knows this and accepts the risk. so what ? we all break laws all the time... again : so $%^& what ? it's not going to hurt anybody else is it ?

as Harry Day, the Royal Flying Corps First World War fighter ace said "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

for the record : i do many solo passages. find i can do abt 36hrs continuous, then need to stop for a kip. if coastal, i'll anchor. if deep sea, i'll heave to, as i'm sure many solo cruisers do (we don't all charge around at 10kts sound asleep !)

only for the rule obsessed, a vessel stopped at sea, showing appropriate not under command lights and / or shapes, while not absolved from keeping a proper look out, is not required to take action to avoid a collision (Rule 18). it's also relevant that if stopped, every other vessel becomes an overtaking vessel and so must keep clear.

cheers,
Ahh.. but this is where the hair splitters jump in as technically while hove to you are in fact underway at 1-1.5kts on a certain general heading.
When doing a long solo passage every night I reduce my main to 3rd reef and furl the jib to keep me on my heading at a steady 3-5kts depending on conditions.. I figure the chances of being hit are pretty much the same either way.
Advantages are if it blows a hooli no need to stagger to the mast half asleep.. just furl the jib a bit more.
The only time I have hove to on passage was when my AP died with 1700nm to go then it was heave to around 11pm and rise at dawn to continue.
So far I have died 5 times on solo transats..
Praise the lord for creating resurrection's..
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Old 31-07-2020, 06:14   #70
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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Yikes, indeed. I question whether a material number of yachts which are not single-handed are underway with everyone asleep at once. If so, this is really egregious and I agree, should not be promoted.
I have had two close calls with Commercial fishing boats, with no one in the wheel house, one I would have been run down had I not changed course. Both times were at night, early hours in the morning actually.
I have no idea if they went below for just a minute, but doubt that as who would with a converging course with another boat that was near by?
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Old 31-07-2020, 06:31   #71
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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So far I have died 5 times on solo transats..
Praise the lord for creating resurrection's..
So is it like Doctor Who, where each time you come back you look different?
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Old 31-07-2020, 07:12   #72
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So is it like Doctor Who, where each time you come back you look different?
Yup..
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Old 31-07-2020, 07:25   #73
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

get a grip people

You know how to tell a CF thread is a lost cause? It is when people start with the rules quoting.
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Old 31-07-2020, 08:21   #74
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

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The Navigation Rules are very clear. Rule 5 requires an "eyes and ears" watch. Rule 2 states there are no extenuating circumstances. If you think these are somehow guidelines or recommendations or best-efforts, great. But that is a personal decision to ignore the Rules. Sailors are quick to complain when a Powerboat forces them to alter course when you're under sail, or when a port-tack sailboat doesn't yield to a starboard tack one (and rightfully so).

I get that there's a certain romanticism about single handing - Bernard Moitessier and all. But you can't have it both ways. You can't chime in about standing a manned watch but give a pass to single handers. There is no "A" for effort.

Peter

I think it's clear solo sailing bends and breaks some colregs. But that doesn't necessarily make it irresponsible. Not unless you are saying you must be 100% compliant with all the rules all of the time. With this standard you must believe everyone is "irresponsible."
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Old 31-07-2020, 09:53   #75
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Re: Sleeping as a couple?

Something else to keep in mind is how easy it is to get in/out of the berth without waking the other up. When we are on our 30' Catalina, I sleep in the vBerth and she sleeps in on the make-up berth in the main saloon. Both will hold two people, but requires the person on the port side to climb over the one on the starboard side to get out.
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