Size is important ....or is it?

[FamilyVan]

Zinger, how does he achieve the fuel range necessary for a NW passage?

No doubt he has not gone with standard twin 350 HP Detroit's/Caterpillars and has gone with smaller 100 HP or so engines, saving weight for additional tankage beyond the standard 1500 litres, even still, I can't imagine with such a light displacement hull how he could extend his fuel range much beyond 1500 miles?

Has he stayed with aluminum, or redesigned for steel? The steel would cost him much of the weight savings from smaller engines. I've had the aluminum models out in ice, and they are not good performers in ice.

I guess weight savings from not having a fly bridge or mast mounted buoyancy tanks would also be significant.

I guess fuel stops on Baffin, and Victoria Islands, McKenzie River.

I know the St Roche II did the trip west to east with only 3000 litres, but she had fuel assistance en route from the CG.

Is she still fully self righting without the buoyancy tanks aloft and on the stern?

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[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I agree and really don't know where most of these responders come up with the silly ideas that smaller is better. Our boat is 54ft, 25 ton and I just finished bringing her over to Porto Cervo myself, anchored inside the harbor near the small beach, was then told to take a mooring by the harbor fellow.... No problems, no issues, do it all the time by myself. Have had all the hydraulics, electrical devices and engine fail all at once, still got the boat in safe.

"Silly", huh? OK, if you say so... ;-)

Then again, I'm not the one who considers leaving the cockpit of my puny 30-footer - to attend to a problem on deck in 30-35 knots of breeze - to entail an unacceptable level of risk, as it apparently does aboard your 54...

;-)

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

"Silly", huh? OK, if you say so... ;-)

Then again, I'm not the one who considers leaving the cockpit of my puny 30-footer - to attend to a problem on deck in 30-35 knots of breeze - to entail an unacceptable level of risk, as it apparently does aboard your 54...

;-)

Jon,

Why do you get so worked up when people have or want a bigger boat than you have? Can't you just get used to the idea and forget about the dooms day posts.

If your comfort level doesn't exceed a 30 footer, great.... stick with your 30 footer. But if I or someone else feels comfortable on a 65 foot boat... so what? Why does that bother you?

[poiu]

Originally Posted by No boat yet

Newbie looking for some practical advice....I have tried the search facility but can't find the answer so would appreciate experienced members opinions ....

We all know that size is important but is a bigger boat necessarily beneficial? My wife and I are very experienced travellers but inexperienced sailors....we are going on a world tour starting 2017 - clearing up business and "stuff" this year and next - we will be buying, a new boat between 45 and 65 ft in the new year.....cost isn't an issue and we will probably want a skipper for the first year or so......question is, does a larger boat cause any extra annoyance when it comes to marinas etc! Certainly our local one doesn't have any berths available for anything over 45 ft ....I favour the larger size, Jeanneau, Oyster or similar as the extra space has to be useful if it is going to be home for 5 yrs or more, more headroom, visitor space etc....but will the extra size be a PitA?

Help appreciated.

I think there is some great advice here as usual. Just filter through it well and as mentioned, there is in fact plenty of information in previous posts.

If you are going to high latitudes then an aluminium boat is the way to go. Plenty of superb yacht makers in Holland especially. You can insulate a fibreglass hull and be equally warm. It is just not as tough.

As to size; that is partly linked to the crew requirement. I personally would ensure I don't need hired crew. It's not for me. Others have the polar opposite view. If you find you like crew then I think you might want a boat of a minimum of 70 ft and fit it out with crew quarters so you and the crew can enjoy privacy. 100ft would be ideal for crewed comfort. Take two and you will never have your sleep disturbed by watches. If you are a more sociable and amenable type and if your crew is too then you can all get by on any sized boat pretty much.

If you go non-crew then the size of boat might be determined by what is the maximum size you would feel comfortable living in. I think an upper limit for a couple may be also around the 70ft to 75ft size as anything above that is a bit pointless - fluttering around like a moth inside a stately home.

The bigger you go the more maintenance there is, but it doesn't rise in proportion to size. A bigger boat usually has only one engine, one genset, 6 winches etc just like a smaller one. Sailing bigger boats is on balance not really any harder than small ones.

Extra size isn't a problem for berthing except for a few marinas in most parts of the world, but you can park around the corner usually in a nearby bay. Nicer anyway.

Shallow draft is more important in some places like the Bahamas/Florida and you can specify a lifting or folding keel if that will be an issue for you.

There is a lot of bureacracy if you go big. Under 78ft and you are a small yacht. Somewhere around 82ft+ under the MCA rules you become a ship and will be obliged to have pro-crew with a ton of rules and regs to conform to. Yuck.

As a wild guess for your solution - Build a 75ft alu boat for just you and the wife. Hire a skipper to teach you how to run it for a few months or a year then off you go. After the first year it should be de-bugged and probably quite reliable for a few years. I hope you can afford it as this plan will probably cost you a few $M over 5 years, mostly in depreciation. If money is an issue then just down size. You'll have exactly the same fun going smaller, just a little less comfort.

I'll underscore previous advice. If you or your wife haven't done some long passages then charter first to test how you get on. A lot of people can't stand it. Seasickness, discomfort, fatigue.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by poiu

I think there is some great advice here as usual. Just filter through it well and as mentioned, there is in fact plenty of information in previous posts.

If you are going to high latitudes then an aluminium boat is the way to go. Plenty of superb yacht makers in Holland especially. You can insulate a fibreglass hull and be equally warm. It is just not as tough.

As to size; that is partly linked to the crew requirement. I personally would ensure I don't need hired crew. It's not for me. Others have the polar opposite view. If you find you like crew then I think you might want a boat of a minimum of 70 ft and fit it out with crew quarters so you and the crew can enjoy privacy. 100ft would be ideal for crewed comfort. Take two and you will never have your sleep disturbed by watches. If you are a more sociable and amenable type and if your crew is too then you can all get by on any sized boat pretty much.

If you go non-crew then the size of boat might be determined by what is the maximum size you would feel comfortable living in. I think an upper limit for a couple may be also around the 70ft to 75ft size as anything above that is a bit pointless - fluttering around like a moth inside a stately home.

The bigger you go the more maintenance there is, but it doesn't rise in proportion to size. A bigger boat usually has only one engine, one genset, 6 winches etc just like a smaller one. Sailing bigger boats is on balance not really any harder than small ones.

Extra size isn't a problem for berthing except for a few marinas in most parts of the world, but you can park around the corner usually in a nearby bay. Nicer anyway.

Shallow draft is more important in some places like the Bahamas/Florida and you can specify a lifting or folding keel if that will be an issue for you.

Most of the world? I don't know where most of the world is, but I live in the country that is unanimously identified as having the longest coast line in the world, by a very large margin.

There are minor provinces here with longer coastlines than the UK.

I live in the capital city, there are literally dozens of marinas and yacht clubs in a 100 km radius, but I can't find a single club within 150 km that can accommodate my 35' boat.

If you prefer to cruise in highly industrialised areas, there are lots of big deep docks. Not most of the world though.

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[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Jon,

Why do you get so worked up when people have or want a bigger boat than you have? Can't you just get used to the idea and forget about the dooms day posts.

If your comfort level doesn't exceed a 30 footer, great.... stick with your 30 footer. But if I or someone else feels comfortable on a 65 foot boat... so what? Why does that bother you?

"Worked up", eh? Nah, sorry to disappoint, but Highly Amused is a bit more like it... ;-)

The OP came here soliciting opinions on boats between 45 and 65 feet. Nowhere have I suggested that he, or anyone else, should be cruising on a boat as modest as mine. Rather, I have simply expressed my own preference, based upon my own experience, for sailing boats at the lower end of the spectrum he defined... Again, perhaps my experience is unique, but problems that arise on larger, more complex yachts generally translate into bigger problems than aboard smaller boats, and are often exacerbated by the crew's diminished ability to simply deal with them physically, if need be... That is all I'm saying, many others obviously are comfortable taking a bit more risk in that regard, than I would be, even if I could afford to do so... ;-)

Anyway, nice try at deflecting the question as to why Bigger was not necessarily Better, in the example I alluded to...

;-)

[poiu]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

Most of the world? I don't know where most of the world is, but I live in the country that is unanimously identified as having the longest coast line in the world, by a very large margin.

There are minor provinces here with longer coastlines than the UK.

I live in the capital city, there are literally dozens of marinas and yacht clubs in a 100 km radius, but I can't find a single club within 150 km that can accommodate my 35' boat.

If you prefer to cruise in highly industrialised areas, there are lots of big deep docks. Not most of the world though.

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OK, sloppy wording. I'll try again: Except for a few marinas where you want to be it's not a problem as you will often be wanting to be at anchor. It is a fact that in most of the world and most harbours in the world you can't get big yachts into, but you can usually get near enough to where you want to be by finding nearby an anchorage or by finding a large enough marina or harbour not too far away.

[Chris Whitney]

As the owner of a 40 cruiser, I can say both bigger is better, but to big is too much. My advice is buy the boat for what you want to do, then get crew/friends to teach you to sail it knowing their help is temporary. If starting with a boat which needs crew to sail will be tough to transition later when you are older (55 years old is a lot different than 65 in getting up the Campionway of any boat). I would love to hear from folks cruising on 65' boats with just the couple on board.

In this conversation I reflect on my anxiousness of bringing my little 40 into a fuel dock, or slipping past whoever in a fairway to try to turn into a transient slip, duel engines and bow thrusters only go so far in tight spaces. I find anchoring out is much more fun than the stuffy marina's. Cooler temperatures (Florida) and better sunrises and sunsets. The joy of a bigger boat is you don't need a marina! Self contained is the key! When you learn the joys of anchoring then bigger/self contained is really better. To me is you want to hang out in marinas. You can stay in a lot of 5 star hotels with marina views and access to docks for a million dollars.

To me a cruising boat is about the trip, the destination is the cherry on the sundae. Bigger is Bigger. I originally wanted a 34-36 but the deal on the 40 was so good I took the leap. As this was my first cruising boat so was intimated at first, now love the features of a 40, so sure I could love the joys of a 60 until I get in traffic!

Got a good bit of advice about your boat should embrace the way you live. If you like spam and crackers, small is fine. If you cant stand to be away from air conditioning then you are going to need a bigger boat!

Looking forward to my "money is no object" boat of my dreams!

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Chris Whitney

Looking forward to my "money is no object" boat of my dreams!

Yes, it would be quite fun & interesting to read what the OP winds up with. Should he be inclined to continue with the thread that is.

Speaking of, I just saw a vid of an Amel 64. A bit glitzy for my taste, but otherwise "wow"! It's even got Dockhead's garage for the RIB when the marina's too tight to accomodate the mother ship. Of course in my book one can't go wrong with a big Oyster, right Ken?!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Exile

Yes, it would be quite fun & interesting to read what the OP winds up with. Should he be inclined to continue with the thread that is.

Speaking of, I just saw a vid of an Amel 64. A bit glitzy for my taste, but otherwise "wow"! It's even got Dockhead's garage for the RIB when the marina's too tight to accomodate the mother ship. Of course in my book one can't go wrong with a big Oyster, right Ken?!

It IS possible to mess up on an Oyster that's too big. I know of two couples, maybe three who each purchased an Oyster 62 who are now in their 70's and require a two person crew aboard at all times. Neither couple is able to sail, dock or anchor the boat alone, they are totally dependent on crew. So all they seem to do is complain about the crew they have, the crew they had or finding new crew. I think part of it has to do with the boat not being large enough to accomodate crew in separate quarters to have their own space.... then they get on each others nerves, or their wallet isn't large enough to seek out high quality professional crew, and instead they get the left overs. BUT before the larger boat naysayers get too excited, I've met many couples on Swans 65 &70, Oysters 575 and 625 and larger who are doing just fine with their very professional crew, in most cases... Only one individual is required to help out.

[brownoarsman]

Was curious so did a bit of research. Apparently, the Supreme Court held that all full time employees of a vessel of any type are covered by the Jones Act. OP, if you don't know what it is, you may want to read it before hiring crew full time and look into this matter for yourself.


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[MYTraveler]

If you plan to have a crew, go to at least 80 feet if you want some privacy.
At least in the US, 65' does trigger some additional requirements, which is part of the reason my boat is just short of 65'. FWIW, I have not wished for a smaller boat here on the west coast.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Was curious so did a bit of research. Apparently, the Supreme Court held that all full time employees of a vessel of any type are covered by the Jones Act. OP, if you don't know what it is, you may want to read it before hiring crew full time and look into this matter for yourself.


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That only applies to United States, and the OP's from United Kingdom.

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[brownoarsman]

Must have missed that.


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[FamilyVan]

I got the impression the op wasn't looking for a professional full time crew, but rather an occasional pilot to assist in high latitude/sketchy navigation.

The distinction makes a big difference. You can share your living but not your sleeping space for a few weeks in the arctic, but if we're talking about months/years then the crew will need separate living quarters, putting you up into the 60's.

Op have you made that distinction? Or maybe you aren't far enough into your decision making process yet- in which case, its something you will want to determine before purchase.

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