Single Women Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look

[Exile]

Jeanne Socrates is one of my all-time favs:

https://svnereida.com

I'm betting that she never allowed a guy or anyone else to get in her way.

The types of issues being discussed may be more prevalent in one gender vs. the other, but they are more than anything human traits that have to be dealt with & overcome. It makes the most sense to then deal with them at an individual level. What purpose is served by indicting entire groups who happen to share immutable traits??

[daletournier]

This was the lady I met.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_Pajkowska

She was just impressive.

Approximately the same time, I met this guy
https://g.co/kgs/G242NH
had some awesome conversations passing time with him, another amazing person.

I felt like such a novice in the company of these two people.

[boatman61]

daletournier (Quote) I see Boatie carry on about not liking macho or bullying guys , but then starts bullying in a cowardly indirect way, even the "chill" comment was condescending and bullying, (Quote)

If you think my posts were bullying that's your prerogative.. and you must have led a sheltered life.
I was posting perspectives of Zee's opinion on men viewed from a male's experiences.. not a knee jerk 'Oh poor me I'm being assaulted' attitude.. if that's too abrasive for your thin skin I'm bad.. and where you get the 'Cowardly' from escapes me..
I guess I just don't like seeing a gang attack on an individual, so step up.
As for my 'Chill' comment.. it was a jokey response to Weavis's earlier 'Chill out' post.. but I guess its one thing if a Mod say's it.. us commoners must be respectful.
Notice you backed off fast from our earlier direct conversation.. but are now happily snarking indirectly..
Your right.. we have nothing in common.


And.. If I was worried about being bullied myself or simply paranoid as some on here seem to be this quote below could be seen as a veiled threat.. especially coming from a Mod god...

(Quote)I dont think you have thought this through at all.

YOu like to keep a good clean reputation for deliveries. YOu dont think people should get upset or riled up from internet burble and you find it funny.

Here is the dichotomy of your statements. The internet will make you or ruin you. The information does not have to be true. One delivered boat owner can destroy your business just by placing comments in all the right places. If I were to look up your name when considering you as a delivery skipper, if I saw a consistent placement of comments everywhere I looked... then you dont get the job. You eventually start to get NO jobs when people who know people point to the comments to other people... DOne consistently and methodically, you will be destroyed. (Quote)

Lucky for me.. I'm not.. and.. life's boring these days so the challenge of something new could be great fun.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by boatman61

(Quote)
I dont think you have thought this through at all.

YOu like to keep a good clean reputation for deliveries. YOu dont think people should get upset or riled up from internet burble and you find it funny.

Here is the dichotomy of your statements. The internet will make you or ruin you. The information does not have to be true. One delivered boat owner can destroy your business just by placing comments in all the right places. If I were to look up your name when considering you as a delivery skipper, if I saw a consistent placement of comments everywhere I looked... then you dont get the job. You eventually start to get NO jobs when people who know people point to the comments to other people... DOne consistently and methodically, you will be destroyed. (Quote)

Im trying to see how this could be a veiled threat. Its a statement of how the internet works.

The problem is that it may or may not affect some people. If it doesnt matter where your next income come from then, well it wont.

For me a a medical practitioner with staff and bills, any hint of misconduct could shut me down fast. The internet can be the worst enemy.

You would have to be way paranoid to think otherwise.

[weavis]

So lets move and discuss more solid things regarding how to make CF a more encompassing place....

statistically, CF is the largest boating forum on the web. Approx 5000 people a day visit....

Some of the members insist on breaking the rules.

We ask for language control, and yet.......
We ask for politeness, and yet.....
We ask for self control in discussions and yet......
We ask for no name calling and yet...
We ask for no public questioning of moderation taken. Please write the mods if you have a problem and yet.................


Without any moderation, CF would be a battle ground.

Without the help and co operation of the members, the mod team have to step in. Then ironically if we allow a situation, we get accused of not doing our job.

Let me tell something. If everyone followed the rules, did not use CF to further their own agendas, and just discussed, you would not see us for dust.

It doesnt happen. That is not our fault. Everyone agrees to the rules when joining. The mods have to step in when they are broken.

Recently, I had to write a member and remind that the use of language on CF was explained in the rules. Then I removed a second post and informed that he could write me and edit his post to conform. I was told that he had self edited the original post,and he felt his freedom of speech had been infringed.


oh well.

We do our best.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by weavis

Im trying to see how this could be a veiled threat. Its a statement of how the internet works.

The problem is that it may or may not affect some people. If it doesnt matter where your next income come from then, well it wont.

For me a a medical practitioner with staff and bills, any hint of misconduct could shut me down fast. The internet can be the worst enemy.

You would have to be way paranoid to think otherwise.

Weavis... read the post..
I said if I was paranoid or felt bullied I COULD view this as a veiled threat... just as you saw Zee's comments as a personal attack and demanded an apology.
I did not say it was..
I could also now say.. if I was paranoid.. you've given some on here a good idea..
I'm not a doctor, so contact with bodies is non existent but.. if someone with a boat wants to go elsewhere for a skipper its their prerogative..
But considering 80% of my jobs have been for CF members I feel pretty safe where my reputation is concerned.. pretty sure an unhappy owner would not be backwards coming forward to say something.
To date my only bad review here was from an Aussie who was trying to get out off paying for a delivery.. rear berth cushions smelt due to hydraulic fluid leak.. and for some unknown reason the spring genoa sheet blocks were worn after 17,000nm.. must have been careless.
My site is just an extension of my CF profile.. only better..

[weavis]

As you notice, the mods have given this thread a great deal of latitude. A great deal.

SO for the last time, let us put the previous million posts behind us and just get on track. Perhaps the best thing to do will be to remove posts that are not moving forward. If that fails, then truly this thread is toast.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Exile

The sorts of conflicts you describe between men & women, and the difficulties more women than men it seems have once onboard is widely acknowledged and is often discussed. In fact there are women who have written books about it. But to the extent you're ASSUMING that all guys are like that -- or the guys posting on this thread are like that -- would be akin to the worst types of stereotypes men throw around about having women onboard. It is true in some cases and not true in others, and frankly it kinda sucks to be necessarily included in some highly generalized stereotype just because it (justifiably) bums you out.

"Why do men in these relationships not WANT to create strong and competent partners?" Because they're insecure and their fragile egos can't handle it. There are some women like that too.

"Why don't they insist their woman take command so if it ever comes to that, they would know what to do?" Because they're insecure and their fragile egos can't handle it. There are some women like that too.

The little I know from the online persona of you and other women who have posted here suggests none of you would tolerate the behavior that befell the women you helped out, and you have no idea how ANY of the guys on this thread treat their wives, girlfriends, or women generally or while onboard their boats. Meanwhile, none of the examples you describe relate to posts on this thread which you & others claim are hostile & aggressive towards women.

Thin-skinned; thick-skulled; drop it; move on; stop whining; projecting your justifiable disgust over some mens' poor behavior to a group of male sailors on an internet forum who you've never met and don't know. I'm not seeing any of the guys behaving this way on this thread. So who's being hostile & aggressive, and who's not listening to who? And who seems to be "privileged" to make all sorts of derogatory comments about complete strangers that I don't believe would or should be tolerated if written by men.

Exile, what exactly in my writing makes you think that I think all men (or you, particularly) are like that?! I don't. I am telling you what I've heard from some women (and please excuse me if I don't put "some" before every instance of gender usage). I've already said I grew up a tom-boy, I hang out with men more often than women, and I don't really understand the sensitivities women have with taking charge about things; I'm just telling you what they (errrr....pardon me) some of the women tell me about some of the guys.

I do wonder why this thread cannot get back on track. I've tried but it appears I keep making it worse. So I'm outta here, too. Good luck figuring out women.....

[weavis]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Weavis... read the post..
I said if I was paranoid or felt bullied I COULD view this as a veiled threat... just as you saw Zee's comments as a personal attack and demanded an apology.
I did not say it was..
I could also now say.. if I was paranoid.. you've given some on here a good idea..
I'm not a doctor, so contact with bodies is non existent but.. if someone with a boat wants to go elsewhere for a skipper its their prerogative..
But considering 80% of my jobs have been for CF members I feel pretty safe where my reputation is concerned.. pretty sure an unhappy owner would not be backwards coming forward to say something.
To date my only bad review here was from an Aussie who was trying to get out off paying for a delivery.. rear berth cushions smelt due to hydraulic fluid leak.. and for some unknown reason the spring genoa sheet blocks were worn after 17,000nm.. must have been careless.
My site is just an extension of my CF profile.. only better..

Phil, we will move on from this. If you had understood my post in the first place, you would not be saying any of this. Your abilities and persona have NOTHING to do with truth when some one decides to take you down on the internet. Stalkers dont give credence to truth and neither do people who do these things. Rumour innuendo and lies are good enough.

Restaurants have been destroyed by commentary on Trip advisor. I watched a great restaurant in Mallorca who reached number 10 on their charts, suddenly get a flurry of posts all saying the standard had dropped, the food was terrible etc. The went to #211 in a week and people stopped coming. In the end it found that they were from friends of the landlord who wanted them out because he was selling the building... too late for the restaurant after this... cant prove it, cant do nothing just close the doors. THIS IS THE POWER OF THE INTERNET.

Thats all.

[weavis]

WE will give the thread a few more days. If it cant reframe and get on track it will be redundant. We already lost one female poster whose contributions have been invaluable.

What to do...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by weavis

Phil, we will move on from this. If you had understood my post in the first place, you would not be saying any of this. Your abilities and persona have NOTHING to do with truth when some one decides to take you down on the internet. Stalkers dont give credence to truth and neither do people who do these things. Rumour innuendo and lies are good enough.

Restaurants have been destroyed by commentary on Trip advisor. I watched a great restaurant in Mallorca who reached number 10 on their charts, suddenly get a flurry of posts all saying the standard had dropped, the food was terrible etc. The went to #211 in a week and people stopped coming. In the end it found that they were from friends of the landlord who wanted them out because he was selling the building... too late for the restaurant after this... cant prove it, cant do nothing just close the doors. THIS IS THE POWER OF THE INTERNET.

Thats all.

Weavis.. we will move on from this..
Just accept that I MAY just be more worldly wise than you obviously seem to think and stop trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.
Now you can have the last word..
But as far as I am concerned this is all from me..
Play on people..

[Exile]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Exile, what exactly in my writing makes you think that I think all men (or you, particularly) are like that?! I don't. I am telling you what I've heard from some women (and please excuse me if I don't put "some" before every instance of gender usage). I've already said I grew up a tom-boy, I hang out with men more often than women, and I don't really understand the sensitivities women have with taking charge about things; I'm just telling you what they (errrr....pardon me) some of the women tell me about some of the guys.

I do wonder why this thread cannot get back on track. I've tried but it appears I keep making it worse. So I'm outta here, too. Good luck figuring out women.....

I don't believe your growing up as a tomboy gives you a pass anymore than my being effectively raised by three older sisters excuses some of the negative attitude towards women that I've been guilty of at times. The difference I see is I think I'm pretty aware of it, understand where it's coming from, and recognize that, no matter how justified I try and tell myself I am, it's not a healthy way to move forward. I've also had some encounters with a couple of absolutely dreadful female boat owners/captains and crew but know all too well that they are the exception to the rule. As for male boat owners/caps who display bossy, controlling behavior towards wives, girlfriends or other women onboard, it is a well known phenomenom which I've witnessed numerous times myself and is widely acknowledged. I've suggested reasons for this in response to your questions, but I wasn't raised to act that way so I really don't know. It's kinda like asking why some people are a**holes, with the caveat that the stresses & confines of boats do seem to change personality & behavior for reasons that often escape me. But are these really sincere questions on your part or just a way of suggesting that this type of male behavior is more the rule rather than the exception?

I've repeatedly answered & provided specific examples of where you & others generalize & stereotype about men, but obviously I have no way of knowing if this is how you actually feel. Your replies are often snarky (like this one), bossy (as a non-mod, I would never tell another poster to "get over it" or "move on"), or non-responsive, and when pushed on your double standards you claim victimization on behalf of other women by hostile & aggressive male posts that you have opted not to identify. Other women have echoed your concerns, however, the mods have taken them seriously, and so I don't question the perception. But without a little help by citing examples I don't know how the mods or anyone else can try & make this a more comfortable place for those who feel this way.

We've already had what I think were valuable discussions, along with numerous examples, about how the perception of the reader may be completely at odds with the intent of the writer. I think this is a common problem generally with the internet where it's that much more difficult to read peoples' personalities, and I think it's particularly pronounced in thread topics such as these where there are posters with an obvious sense (justifiably or otherwise) of victimization. That can often result in different people thinking completely differently about, for example, an article about gender discrimination in the workplace even though they all have the same sincere desire for women reaching equality/parity. The problem these days is that people with equally good intentions but different opinions on how to reach certain goals get labeled & stereotyped, and then the conversation ends.

But so it be, and as Weav has said things are getting redundant. I'd also like to think we could get back on track, if only I knew what track we were once on! Notwithstanding our disagreements, I admire you and others who opt for the lifestyle of living aboard & cruising, and I don't doubt that there are probably more difficult obstacles to overcome for women. But I see women in those situations less as victims and more as determined people who are that much stronger for often having a harder road, and so it's hard not to like & find inspiration from women like you, Zee, Ann, sailorchic, and many others who have & have not weighed in.

[zeehag]

itis a damned shame so many must be subjective and unable to see the realities of life and living. blindness cures nothing.
apologies need not be rendered by me as i accused no one of anything, merely listed that which is residing on water in many busy ports.
if folks cannot appreciate their lifestyles they should change that to make selves more comfortable.
personally i donot care who lives on water, and have friended in person many of those on the list, as they were and occasionally are my neighbors.
there is enough divisiveness and hate without contributing to that.
love thy neighbor, to all you hypocritical christians. if the shoe fits wear it without accusing anyone of accusing you. nothing said is meant for you.
treat others as you would have others treat you.
too bad so many have forgotten this one.
life is what you make it.
Never allow yourself to become a victim. that is from within as is happiness. state of mind.
a choice.
i CHOOSE to happily reside on water and cruise. it is a wonderful lifestyle, especially once out of home ports. variety is spice of life.

[Capt Phil]

Originally Posted by gamayun

So I'll give you an example and I have many -- but please understand, I grew up a tom-boy, most of my friends are males, my work environment is mostly male -- so these stories are fascinating, a little bizzare and hard to understand. Maybe you can help she'd some light? A couple years ago, I was an instructor at a female-only sailing weekend. Several women went out with me on my boat. An hour of so later, as we passed under the Bay Bridge, one said "I've been so nervous up to this point because I've never been on my boyfriend's boat without huge stress right now. I always dread going past that bridge. This was the first time it was fun." I don't know their relationship but I can tell you she was not the only woman on my boat to have said something similar over the years. I am currently instructing another woman to help her take her boat out without her husband. Not because she wants to be away from him, but because she enjoys sailing more than him, but is too afraid to "take charge" of her own boat. Why do men in these relationships not WANT to create strong and competent partners? Why don't they insist their woman take command so if it ever comes to that, they would know what to do? I had the good fortune of meeting Linda Newland, whom someone mentioned earlier, and she had said something very similar. Her then boyfriend didn't know a thing about sailing, took control of the boat, and kinda freaked her out as he said "here, you take it." And she did. She went on to do some of the biggest, baddest sailing/racing you can ever imagine. If you can find her 1982 account of the storm during a Farralones race here off San Francisco in which a number of boats and sailors were lost, I assure you you'll find few with her level of grit and good decision-making under pressure. Is she a feminist and man-hater? I seriously doubt it, and nothing I've heard her say would suggest it, but she has strongly supported bringing women up through the ranks to become more confident as sailors. For whatever reason, many women get turned off by a man yelling at them because they're not yanking on a rope just right or not quit into the heeling at 30 degrees and over-canvassed like an idiot. Does saying this sort of thing make me a misanthrope? Hardly. Seriously, I get a kick out of sparring with you guys, even the thin-skinned and thick-skulled ones. But I suspect that if you would just give some women here a little breathing room and let them take control from time to time, you might just hear from them about how awesome you really are

Very well put, gamayun... I have been out of boating/cruising for a number of years now but your thoughts take me back to when we had moved from sail to power due to my health issues. My wife was really into sailing as was I but we had the crap scared out of us on a sail back from the Sea of Cortez one year. My bad as we were over canvassed on our Transpacific 49 not reefing when we thought of it and rather waited until conditions dictated we better take in some sail. I was used to being the skipper mainly because my wife is not comfortable making decisions and I had years and years of experience, she had about 5 years of living aboard and cruising.
When we moved aboard our powerboat, a 54 foot DeFever, one of the first things I did was teach her to drive the boat and try her hand at mechanical maintenance. When asked why she had to learn this ‘stuff’, I told her I could pop off ar fall O/B anytime and she had to know these things to either come back and pick me up or return my remains to land. She thought for a moment and looked at me somewhat quizzically and said, ‘that makes sense’.
When I say drive the boat, that entailed telling me what to do, how she wanted the vessel prepared for offshore including stowage of nick nacks that one invariable acquires on a live aboard, proper stowage of lines, fenders, anchors and safety gear, etc... she became very competent and even took a couple of deliveries when we got busy( I had a small delivery business in San Diego). Although she was not licensed as I was, she met a number of brokers and marine types who realized she had the ability and experience to handle deliveries herself.
My advice to the males who glance over this thread is to let your partner spread her wings and take over running your vessel on a regular basis like every other time you go cruising. You will be amazed at how well she does!!
Cheers, Phil

[JPA Cate]

I am a woman who detests wrangling. I am writing here, only for myself, and with the intent of helping other people understand some of what they are experiencing, or experienced in the past. All that I write is only my opinion, and it is my thought that that is what everyone else writes, as well. And, we all know about opinions.....

I am hanging in here because I, personally, am of a persevering nature. Probably, I am an unusual person, having had many non-mainstream experiences. And, I think this last, is one thing I have in common with some of the male cruisers on this forum.

Now, I am not intending this as an attack, but the timing of the question about what women do when they need to urinate really put me off. Why it put me off is related to how I was conditioned as a girl child, and is personal, but may not be unique. However, I do not mind answering the question, and I, too, think the thread needs to move on. When I need to pee, I come below and use the head. I would not do this anywhere crowded, when I need to be on watch every second. If I were singlehanded, I'd be using an empty mayonnaise jar with a good lid.

I cannot answer the watch schedule question, as I have never sailed singlehanded.

Ann

PS. It is really hard to see one's own biases, but I think gamayun's advice to use to look into them is a really good one. It is something I think all people, including me need to do.