Single Women Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think the best solution for this thread is to just move on with a bit better sensitivity and acceptance to the fact that we white middle class males have in fact had a privledged existence

Assuming this is correct, I'm missing the connection to the grievances being complained about in the thread, or the relevance if you like to the thread topic. Is it that being white, male & middle class gives us some sort of unfair advantage over another poster who is white, female & middle class? That sounds pretty demeaning to the competence of female posters, no? Or is it that us white, middle class males deserve to be treated poorly solely on account of our apparent advantages? Or maybe it's collective punishment for the sins of other white, middle class males who actually ARE the types of degenerates that have been attributed to all of us. And whichever way, how exactly does this inform a solution to the claimed grievances here & now??

Help me out with your logic here Pelagic.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I'll give my wifes view on sailing: Sailing is for windless days where we can drop the hook and work on the tans. I'm not touching the tiller, strings, chart, dock lines or anything other than the suntan lotion and a glass of wine. If you want help or want to sail when it's windy, go with the guys.
I'm OK with that.

OMG, serve me any day with 20-knot winds and azure skies and I'll kiss the ground you walk on. You gotta be that good and consistent tho, or no kissees...

[weavis]

After a sleep, a really good one by my standards, about 5 hours, I got to thinking about this thread.

It had no theme, no outline, no direction and became polarised by one negative view regarding men. It had no chance of success. Just a mess of of half spoken thoughts and protectionist push backs.

We need to start with the premise/fact that men and women are different. We need to understand the interaction between the sexes is based on not one, but two sets of conditions. Male and female viewpoints. Neither are wrong, just different.

We need to recognise, that the world is full of unfair situations. Yet are deeply ingrained in our culture so much so that both sexes dont understand why but accept them as the status quo either without thought or with anger.

Without the over lay of a religion with its own rules that ALL adhere to, usually a community or country falls into individual desires and direction, but then falls prey to an evil other 'religious' idea of political correctness. Political correctness was a real tool of communism devised in 1931 to introduce the west to the tenets of communism by making the least able thought or person, the standard for everyone to support and be judged by. Not only accept but actually promote and refusal to endorse will incite the wrath of everyone else. As individuals we SHOULD be able to say, I "dont agree" and not be taken to task over it.

It is yet something else that has damaged relationships.

There will never be equality between the sexes. Neither should there be. It should be parity. I am not equipped to deal with things in a female way or have a female perspective. I cannot do it. Im not programmed that way. I marvel at the manner of the female approach to solutions and there are times that it is the only way a problem can be solved.

The reality, in general is that men and women BALANCE each other.

If we strip away all preconceptions and thought patterns, CF is about boating.

The real topic of this thread is a mixture of finding the communication issues without stereotyping, and to relate the problems that beset men and women in the cruising world that persist, and see where both sexes can understand the differences and overcome problems.

As moderators on CF, we are charge with keeping the forum rules. We are not in charge of the topic per se, but have to keep the topic in line with CF directives. Without the balance of the female moderators, it would be easy for this to be a male perspective only thread.

In saying that, we the moderators are going to ask the members who post on this thread, to actually help each other to understand the problems, perspectives and issues related to interaction between the sexes in a positive way. It doesnt help either side if men come out swinging because they are labeled as all things evil in the world, and if women are labeled ultra feminist. We are people.

A long post but one that lays out the direction of this thread. If we dont do this then thread closure is the alternative and I know some of the participants here REALLY are trying to work for a better understanding.

So lets keep politics out, lets keep niceness in and let us listen to each other.

[gamayun]

So I'll give you an example and I have many -- but please understand, I grew up a tom-boy, most of my friends are males, my work environment is mostly male -- so these stories are fascinating, a little bizzare and hard to understand. Maybe you can help she'd some light? A couple years ago, I was an instructor at a female-only sailing weekend. Several women went out with me on my boat. An hour of so later, as we passed under the Bay Bridge, one said "I've been so nervous up to this point because I've never been on my boyfriend's boat without huge stress right now. I always dread going past that bridge. This was the first time it was fun." I don't know their relationship but I can tell you she was not the only woman on my boat to have said something similar over the years. I am currently instructing another woman to help her take her boat out without her husband. Not because she wants to be away from him, but because she enjoys sailing more than him, but is too afraid to "take charge" of her own boat. Why do men in these relationships not WANT to create strong and competent partners? Why don't they insist their woman take command so if it ever comes to that, they would know what to do? I had the good fortune of meeting Linda Newland, whom someone mentioned earlier, and she had said something very similar. Her then boyfriend didn't know a thing about sailing, took control of the boat, and kinda freaked her out as he said "here, you take it." And she did. She went on to do some of the biggest, baddest sailing/racing you can ever imagine. If you can find her 1982 account of the storm during a Farralones race here off San Francisco in which a number of boats and sailors were lost, I assure you you'll find few with her level of grit and good decision-making under pressure. Is she a feminist and man-hater? I seriously doubt it, and nothing I've heard her say would suggest it, but she has strongly supported bringing women up through the ranks to become more confident as sailors. For whatever reason, many women get turned off by a man yelling at them because they're not yanking on a rope just right or not quit into the heeling at 30 degrees and over-canvassed like an idiot. Does saying this sort of thing make me a misanthrope? Hardly. Seriously, I get a kick out of sparring with you guys, even the thin-skinned and thick-skulled ones. But I suspect that if you would just give some women here a little breathing room and let them take control from time to time, you might just hear from them about how awesome you really are

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by weavis

With respect, from my perspective, that is not true. Two sides to everything.

I'm sure there is two sides but his perception is his perception, thus he's no longer here, aren't the ladies that apparently are keeping away doing so on how they perceive the forum? My point is it's not just ladies that keep away from threads like this, I bet there's many guys reading that also don't contribute due to fear of getting publicly shamed for being on the wrong side of PC.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by daletournier

My point is it's not just ladies that keep away from threads like this, I bet there's many guys reading that also don't contribute due to fear of getting publicly shamed for being on the wrong side of PC.

Im hoping to make this a respectful PC free zone. Can only be done will all of us contributing. Thank you for all your contributions...

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Isn't it possible that many guys also don't comment or contribute, it's not just a gender thing it's about varying personalities? Many guys sit on the sidelines as well as they just know they can't win against PC gender biases.

Your also (as well as other ladies) a part of the clobbering, you display just as much "testosterone" as other contributors at times, ie your one sentence snarky replies to Exiles posts, but of course when it's guys debating or defending then it's easy to throw a label such as "testosterone" around, that descriptive label isn't appropriate for your debating style, why? your a woman?

Ive seen women bully aggressively regularly here and get snarky but that's different. I see guys like weavis who calls out NOT OK behaviour but then gets labelled the attacker and then bullied directly and indirectly by a number of people for calling out a woman's prejudice? what if it was a guy that said "all women solo sailors are prostitutes" would this thread of gone a different way? , I see Boatie carry on about not liking macho or bullying guys , but then starts bullying in a cowardly indirect way, even the "chill" comment was condescending and bullying, Sailor chic who I respect jumps in with a indirect passive insult and retreats with "I'm not part of this" ah, yes you are? . The subtlies of the double standards seem to be totally unnoticed by many because it's not convenient , maybe some of you should challenge your conditioned beliefs.

In regards to losing ladies from the thread or forum in general, it's not only ladies. I glanced over at sailnet the other day and there was a great thread started by Markj regarding crossing to Europe, remember him? He was a long time contributor here, over 12,000 posts. Well we missed out on that information in that great thread because he's no longer here. Why? Turns out he advertised for some female crew here on Cf, copped a whole lot of slack from the over sensitive types, wasn't supported by the mods and now dosent take part in this forum, our loss. So before you go "the poor ladies" get bullied out if this place by to much "testosterone" etc here's a bloke that would never be considered to "sensitive" that's not returning, he's not comfortable here.... once again our loss.

I absolutely feel the same applies. I'm on SN and it's a completely different atmosphere there. The problem on CF is that it seems there is a 9:1 ratio of men to women. And when you lose both men and women because of the harsh postings, the loss of a few women is going to be felt more significantly because there were so few to start with. I'm not saying "be more policitcally correct, blah, blah, blah". I'm trying to say to be more thoughtful in your posts. So, instead of critiquing every single thing we say, offer your own thoughts and suggestions. Move this thread in a thoughtful direction! Give us your own examples of females on your boats. Did you give them the tiller, offer to talk them through their own docking, ask them where they would like to go for the day? These sorts of things would be so much more productive..so let's lay off already on all the "you're bashing men, and it's just not fair" whining and get on with how you help build up other sailors - young, old, male female, single or not. It would certainly be more interesting to me [emoji4]

[weavis]

Originally Posted by gamayun

I absolutely feel the same applies. I'm on SN and it's a completely different atmosphere there. [emoji4]

OK. This is useful. What do they do right that we do wrong? Specifically.

Dale. Thank for clear concise outlining of some issues..

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by weavis

OK. This is useful. What do they do right that we do wrong? Specifically.

I'll try to find examples but without going back and re-reading all the posts, id have to say that SN posters are just more polite. They don't seem to get snarky with each other, but if someone does, they mostly ignore the poster or call the guy out and he's not heard from again. They don't really engage. It's nice feeling much like a small country town versus a big city. One is likely to feel fewer angry, petty, negative people in a small town. In a large city, everyone seems to want to run you over or yell at ya. Stereotyping - well, yes, but the feeling is what it is...

[Pelagic]

What is SN?

[MLOI]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Why don't they insist their woman take command so if it ever comes to that, they would know what to do?

Really?
Its our fault that we dont insist hard enough that women folk take over?
We are not assertive enough, and thats why women think we are too assertive?

Lucky I realised many years ago that playing to lose is the only path to success in the war of the sexes

(Fwiw I mostly do bow on my boat when we have guests of either sex on board. My best mate actually got jealous because his GF got to helm all the time, particularly when it was just the two of us. Shes funny, she'll happily drive my boat from dock to dock, but refuses to consider chartering a yacht herself.)

Mike

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

What is SN?

Sailnet forum.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by gamayun

So I'll give you an example and I have many -- but please understand, I grew up a tom-boy, most of my friends are males, my work environment is mostly male -- so these stories are fascinating, a little bizzare and hard to understand. Maybe you can help she'd some light? A couple years ago, I was an instructor at a female-only sailing weekend. Several women went out with me on my boat. An hour of so later, as we passed under the Bay Bridge, one said "I've been so nervous up to this point because I've never been on my boyfriend's boat without huge stress right now. I always dread going past that bridge. This was the first time it was fun." I don't know their relationship but I can tell you she was not the only woman on my boat to have said something similar over the years. I am currently instructing another woman to help her take her boat out without her husband. Not because she wants to be away from him, but because she enjoys sailing more than him, but is too afraid to "take charge" of her own boat. Why do men in these relationships not WANT to create strong and competent partners? Why don't they insist their woman take command so if it ever comes to that, they would know what to do? I had the good fortune of meeting Linda Newland, whom someone mentioned earlier, and she had said something very similar. Her then boyfriend didn't know a thing about sailing, took control of the boat, and kinda freaked her out as he said "here, you take it." And she did. She went on to do some of the biggest, baddest sailing/racing you can ever imagine. If you can find her 1982 account of the storm during a Farralones race here off San Francisco in which a number of boats and sailors were lost, I assure you you'll find few with her level of grit and good decision-making under pressure. Is she a feminist and man-hater? I seriously doubt it, and nothing I've heard her say would suggest it, but she has strongly supported bringing women up through the ranks to become more confident as sailors. For whatever reason, many women get turned off by a man yelling at them because they're not yanking on a rope just right or not quit into the heeling at 30 degrees and over-canvassed like an idiot. Does saying this sort of thing make me a misanthrope? Hardly. Seriously, I get a kick out of sparring with you guys, even the thin-skinned and thick-skulled ones. But I suspect that if you would just give some women here a little breathing room and let them take control from time to time, you might just hear from them about how awesome you really are

The sorts of conflicts you describe between men & women, and the difficulties more women than men it seems have once onboard is widely acknowledged and is often discussed. In fact there are women who have written books about it. But to the extent you're ASSUMING that all guys are like that -- or the guys posting on this thread are like that -- would be akin to the worst types of stereotypes men throw around about having women onboard. It is true in some cases and not true in others, and frankly it kinda sucks to be necessarily included in some highly generalized stereotype just because it (justifiably) bums you out.

"Why do men in these relationships not WANT to create strong and competent partners?" Because they're insecure and their fragile egos can't handle it. There are some women like that too.

"Why don't they insist their woman take command so if it ever comes to that, they would know what to do?" Because they're insecure and their fragile egos can't handle it. There are some women like that too.

The little I know from the online persona of you and other women who have posted here suggests none of you would tolerate the behavior that befell the women you helped out, and you have no idea how ANY of the guys on this thread treat their wives, girlfriends, or women generally or while onboard their boats. Meanwhile, none of the examples you describe relate to posts on this thread which you & others claim are hostile & aggressive towards women.

Thin-skinned; thick-skulled; drop it; move on; stop whining; projecting your justifiable disgust over some mens' poor behavior to a group of male sailors on an internet forum who you've never met and don't know. I'm not seeing any of the guys behaving this way on this thread. So who's being hostile & aggressive, and who's not listening to who? And who seems to be "privileged" to make all sorts of derogatory comments about complete strangers that I don't believe would or should be tolerated if written by men.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by gamayun

I absolutely feel the same applies. I'm on SN and it's a completely different atmosphere there. The problem on CF is that it seems there is a 9:1 ratio of men to women. And when you lose both men and women because of the harsh postings, the loss of a few women is going to be felt more significantly because there were so few to start with. I'm not saying "be more policitcally correct, blah, blah, blah". I'm trying to say to be more thoughtful in your posts. So, instead of critiquing every single thing we say, offer your own thoughts and suggestions. Move this thread in a thoughtful direction! Give us your own examples of females on your boats. Did you give them the tiller, offer to talk them through their own docking, ask them where they would like to go for the day? These sorts of things would be so much more productive..so let's lay off already on all the "you're bashing men, and it's just not fair" whining and get on with how you help build up other sailors - young, old, male female, single or not. It would certainly be more interesting to me [emoji4]

I treat all crew members who sail with me the same, namely to try and get them schooled up as fast as possible so they can be as indpt. as possible in managing the boat, with or without me. Some are more capable and/or motivated than others. Both my treatment of them and how they respond are not gender related. If I start doing long passagemaking with a male or female crew member, I would consider myself negligent if that crew, regardless of gender, wasn't adept at dealing with all of the major systems to keep the boat safe and on course. I don't understand why on earth it could or should be otherwise, unless the crew member was incompetent, uninterested, or otherwise disabled. But I cannot generalize nor speak for others.

As for SN, what makes you think the ratio of males to females is any different than CF? I honestly don't know. I agree the atmosphere is different, but my impression is mainly that the mods have actively decided to intervene a lot less. While that's fine, I prefer CF because I feel it's a bit more serious when it comes to more techy threads and I don't waste nearly as much time separating the wheat from the chaff. But I disagree that SN is necessarily friendlier & more self-regulating. As with CF, it depends on the subject matter of the particular thread. I've read threads with just as much rancor as the more controversial threads here, and there are several posters over there that I thought were rightly thrown off CF for being deliberately & overly divisive. (Have no idea why MarkJ left CF but agree he was quite an asset).

[daletournier]

My partner just got back on board. I'm putting alot more effort into getting her better skilled, this is for both our safety as we have some serious travels coming up.

Now in saying that, I happen to agree with the above poster. Why should we insist or be more assertive regarding improving female crew skill set (other than for our own safety), why should it be my responsibility, isn't it their responsibility to learn and utilise my knowledge and boat? I've solo sailed alot (and I'm not a pedophile[emoji2]) , I don't actually need a great deal of help from my female crew, and my experience is a great deal of lady crew are happy to and just want to be passengers, I mostly have no problem with with that, as they bring other qualities to my cruising life (nothing to read into that).

The teacher appears when the student wants to learn but very rarely do I get sailing, voyaging type questions from my female crew. One English lady I had onboard loved sailing, it was a pleasure answering her questions and having her trim sails, she proactively worked towards becoming a better sailor. I had a Czech Republic girl on board and after a 700nm passage and 2 mths she said "you taught me nothing!" my response was no, you taught you nothing, not my responsibility, think of me as a book, you need to pick me up and start reading!

No one insisted I learn to sail and crew, I did so because I was highly motivated and wanted to learn to cruise, the same applies to women. If they truly want to learn to sail or cruise they will find away. If they can't learn in the environment with the husband, leave that environment or the husband, take responsibility.

Never yet had one lady say "can I drive the dinghy".... I'm making it a prerequisite that they become competent with the dinghy now.

Something I appreciate about lady crew is they get me more active. I find the ladies like to do more things, going hiking etc, this is great, they don't listen to my whining they just drag me along, which I appreciate.. Lol.

The quest for equality (assuming you don't have it) or parity is about women stepping up, not men stepping down. If women want to learn to cruise, then learn, take responsibility and own it.

On another note one of the most amazing sailors I ever met was a woman, met her nine years ago at Lizard island, small boat, she was 60ish,second time around the world, still had water in her tank from Panama, have tried googling her but unfortunately can't remember who she was, Dutch I think. Awesome lady nothing to prove, had great chats with her.

One of the biggest pain in the ass sailors I met was a professional woman captain, asked her and two guys to give me a hand with lines when backing into a travel lift on a very windy day. She started shouting orders, she become invisible to me. She stormed off once we were tired up, didn't like not being in charge.