Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Meantime, in the developed world

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...jailed-in-rome

A tragic example of a truly depraved mind.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by daletournier

It would be interesting to know the age of various posters, it seems to have a bearing on the various views.

Hubby B: 47

Wifey B: 38, but I still feel 21 and hubby sure doesn't act 47.

[redhead]

I wonder what the longest ever thread on CF was/is??

[Exile]

Originally Posted by BandB

Many of my female friends who date always split the bill. Why? Because they don't want to feel like something was bought and paid for. They feel like letting the guy pay for everything then going to bed with him is very little different than prostitution and it's not for them. When I dated and when I first met my hubby he did pay for the meals. He grew up in an environment where he was taught the man pays. I thought a gentleman paid. We've both changed how we perceive that, largely in talking with younger single girls today.

I didn't mean to parse out your otherwise thoughtful post, but I thought this particular paragraph highlighted some of the confusion some (modern? progressive?) women have when it comes to conforming to feminist/equality expectations. This confusion is then transferred to men, who (being simpler creatures ) often become befuddled & frustrated with what are interpreted as mixed signals. It's hard to generalize this stuff, but you don't have to be that old or "old school" to have grown up in an environment where, as you say, there's a norm where the "gentleman pays" for meals & such, at least during the courtship phase. But I'd also suggest that a "gentleman" would never assume that this implied an obligation for the woman to go to bed with him akin to prostitution! But then I realize there are all types of men out there . . . and all types of women . . . .

In my own experiences it really came down to the woman's attitude once the relationship got rolling. And again, this was only 2-3 times in a relationship history with some wonderful women who were truly independent and felt no need to display their "feminist" leanings -- they just lived it. But with these others it was after the early courtship phase when the expectations & entitlement started creeping in, along with their sense of victimization of course. And it wasn't over any immediate financial need, but perhaps triggered by a disparity in my favor.

If the attitude was more of a "traditional" mindset where this is just the expected role men are supposed to fill, then it would have been easier because it's more honest. And likewise, if a woman is truly living up to feminist ideals and believed in the importance of equality, then those are traits I also admire, are quite clear, and I can't imagine it being difficult to work things out pragmatically. But it's what I believe are many women these days wanting it, or worse, expecting it both ways that is one of the things making it difficult to form lasting relationships. There is confusion, imo, over what their roles should be and this leads to unrealistic and often unobtainable expectations for the men they choose to be with. I'm not even sure how aware they are of the mixed messages they're sending, nor if most guys really understand the source of their own confusion & frustration. And that's why I don't think the "gold digger" or other disparaging labels are appropriate for either women or men in these relationships, if for no other reason than they become superficial explanations for a more complicated problem.

I realize I may be unfairly generalizing, and obviously this is a guy's perspective. Like a lot of guys, I have given up trying to figure out female psychology, but perhaps some of the women here can enlighten. All I can say is that from my own experience and from talking to a lot of other guys (single & married), I can't help but believe there is a pattern. Maybe it's fallout from our "post-feminist" era??

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Exile

Like a lot of guys, I have given up trying to figure out female psychology, but perhaps some of the women here can enlighten.

Well I'm just a male, but that's just crazy:

1 - Women are not going to accept that you have stopped trying to understand them! They are going to see it as you don't care.

2 - They aren't going to tell you because they figure that:
a) men probably wouldn't listen anyway
b) if it has to be explained to them they are too stupid to understand

:n onono:

[Carat]

This might very well be the next go to online find-a-date..just kidding.

As a never been pregnant female, I would not know anything about raising a child. I can only form my opinion about it from experiences with family members and friends who have children. I want to mention that some of the women I know got pregnant to keep the man around, even though they won't admit it. Where are they now? Single or re-married. One of my male friends hooked up with a woman who had a kid, and she was desperate to hook up with a man for financial security. He said she was very aggressive about securing a future with him...it scared him. When my friend indicated there was no chance in a future, she found a different man a few weeks later and married him. When I taught high school, I had several pregnant students. Many were not pregnant when they started the school year. I was the cool art teacher, so they liked to share their life stories with me. I would say all of them ended up single once the baby was born. A few were left during the pregnancy. Either way, it was cool to be pregnant and these kids were getting attention. The need to nest is strong with young women, more so than young men. Hardwired? Yes, I feel humans are wired to reproduce. Need to secure a relationship with a man? Yes. Deceptive practices to get pregnant? Yes. I feel there is more deception than planning....in my opinion. It's not hard to remember to take a pill. Really. It's not hard to think about what you will give up to have a child and the responsibility that comes with it. Some people have such a desire to feel loved by someone, that they get pregnant to try to fill that hole in their lives. Others believe it's the religiously correct thing to do, and that's just what people are supposed to do....rules of society, I suppose. The weird one's are those of us who don't have kids, eh? Find someone, breed, get pregnant, get a house, get a car, get furniture, mow lawns, go to work, pay bills, pay more bills, too tired to have sex anymore, wash dishes...and so on. This is what the people in my life have indicated regarding raising children. However, the women who are still married to the father of their children wouldn't have it any other way. The single parents reflect back on their decisions and claim they would have waited.
Either way, each of us has our reasons as to why or why we didn't have a family. What is right for one, is not necessarily right for another.
Sorry to ramble on....

Question for the guys...what makes a man hook up with a woman who turns psychotic, yet still continues to keep the woman in his life?
One of my good friends gave in to the advances of a neighbor (who was living with a man she met online)....the guy found out about the affair and didn't care...actually he told my friend he could have her. Turns out, the gal is a raging psychotic. He has called the cops on her many times, rescued her from another situation with a man she shacked up with, and now drives her to work and picks her up. When she calls him, she drills him on what he's doing, where he's been and so on. And he claims he slept with her once. So why does he do all this stuff for her? Does he feel sorry for her knowing her sob story (which could have a movie made about it...totally F'd up).

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Wowow!

And so we are nearing #1000.

This may be pointing at a clear correlation between single men living aboard and the Cruising Forum.

A paired man living aboard,
barnakiel

[barnakiel]

I do not get this whole 'understand' lore.

There is nothing to understand beyond seeing the human. There is nothing to do beyond being human.

I take people as they are. Understanding is good for people who like to complicate the world by asking too many questions.

I am still young. Maybe to young to understand older men who will claim one needs the poses a secret skill known as 'understanding women'.

And who is to teach this skill? 60+ y.o. men who should be starting to try to understand God rather than keep their minds obsessed with sex, women, beer and clean diesel? The fact is they do not need clean diesel. They are not going anywhere anymore.

Maybe I should write a book on this. I am getting so many dislikes on my FB. It is like a niche subject but should give me some good sales throughout various cruising forums. I bet old cars repair forum is my next best target market.

;-)

It is OK to understand what one person wants, expects and dreams of (makes buying Christmas gifts so much easier). But trying to 'understand women' is like trying to talk to a million headed dragon. Not going to work.

Cheers,
b.

[jillf]

Fascinating thread!

I have to reply even at this late date because no one has mentioned the most important thing to me as a cruising woman...TRUST. If my husband (of 27 years) was to die before me, I'd probably live aboard at the marina for a while to say goodbye to our good ole' boat and get my sh*t together. Then I'd give the boat to my son and buy an RV. I trust my husband's judgement, skill, and willingness to consider my needs as well as his own....I understand what he values and what motivates him.
There is no one else in the entire world other than my husband that I would trust enough to sail out on the ocean with. Nobody.

I admire the few and mighty women that are brave enough to go it alone but my "issues" would prevent me from trying and it would take longer than I have to build up the trust I would need to sail with someone else.

Through out my life I have always been an "agent of change" so the cruising lifestyle suits me well but as much as I enjoy cruising I also need financial SECURITY. I am eight years younger than my husband and I would not be willing to be left in a position that required me to struggle financially for almost a decade until I reach "full retirement age" or worse still, to live in penury in my old age. I already have suffered a serious illness and know what it is to not be able to take care of myself. I love my husband (even more, if that is possible) for considering my needs though it has required us to suspend cruising for a couple of years to ensure our long term financial security. We are hoping to be back on the boat in January AND I CAN't WAIT.

[Gadagirl]

Some thoughts

I have read a lot on the theory that the human sex drive (built into our DNA) was based on procreation, no matter what gender. Women choose strength, health, intelligence and monogomy so the family will be provided for and protected, offering long term security to raise children and for survival. Men choose young, fertile, strong, intelligent women for the same purpose, security and survival. Each gender derives pleasure from sex. I just don't believe, in these modern times, that all women are having sex only for procreation, nor all men are having sex only for pleasure. I know many women that do not want children and many men that want children. And visa versa. In modern times we have informed intelligence, reasoning abilities, and consciousness. We are no longer controlled by basil instinct.

Men being "tricked" into fatherhood? Even before birth control was widely available, that was never a valid excuse. Sex causes pregnancy. Most people know that. If men want to be 100% certain not to cause pegnacy then they should take precautions, as some men here stated they did. But to pass all responsibility and blame onto women? Why on earth should the woman be the only one responsible? Hahaha! Would you find it an equal argument if a woman said, "He tricked me! He promised to pull out!" What do men find less pleasurable? Wearing a condom or being a father? Being sterelized or being a father? Really? Men want to not wear a condom but instead trust in pharmaceuticals and their partner to ensure they will not become a father, yet when those methods fail and they do become a father, "It was her fault."? I lectured my all of my children about the importance of birth control (their schools were not teaching all of the facts). I especially lectured my son. I basically explained to him that if he didn't take precaution, then after the fact it was out of his hands, that his future would be decided by the woman he was having sex with. I raised him to be responsible for his actions.

Disparity in wages? Yes it exists. Worse? Disparity in raises, promotions, and mentoring exists as well.

Monogomy, polygamy, serial monogamy, gay couples, platonic pals, married, committed, friends with benefits? I know them all. What ever floats your boat. However you live your life is not for me to judge. If it does not hurt me or mine, then it is really none of my buisiness. I really wish governments and religions would stop trying to control personal relationships.

Prenups? All for it. Men are not the only sex worried about the future security of their children.

In my 40's, early 50's it was just not practical for me to stop working, to stop saving money for retirement, to take off with or without a man. If I could cruise and still contribute towards my retirement funds, and be able to afford propper healthcare then I would be out there by now. So you men have choices. Find a younger woman, or any aged woman, living in a low income situation, whereby living with you on a boat seems a prize. You would be footing the bill = "Gold digger" in some mens interpretation of that. Find a woman that is equally financially independent as you, and they see living with you on a boat is a prize. Ahhh the unicorn! Just how many women do you think exist that are young, or any age, and financially independent, and think that living with you on a boat is a prize? Or find the part time woman, that joins in your travels sometimes. Or have one night stands. Or pay prostitutes. Or have a commitment, where you agree through marriage or contract that she will not be living in poverty after you pass. The choices are endless. Everything that you desire in life comes with a price and/or a compromise. Just like your choice in a boat.

Stop all of the insistent whining. You are not a prize! I am not a prize! We all have faults.

I believe happy couples have an understanding of compromise, empathy, gratitude, and sharing. It balances, not necessarily on a spread sheet. Just over time. Sometimes it is her time, sometimes it is his time. But all times are either endured or cherished, and all times can either strengthen or ruin.

Make the best of it.

[wolfgal]

I'd need to retire to keep up with this thread! It is fantastic, really! Imagine that men and women can read these viewpoints and learn about the whole question of "to have a mate or not have a mate," and this, for years and years to come! There is so much honesty in all of this! (I always sound so positive when I start because, after that, I can drop the bomb.)

Jill, thanks so much for offering us a glimpse at your love and your trust with your man. It is such a beautiful thing when couples have this!

OK, i've been listening to your voices while i read and considering the various perspectives. quite naturally, i've been measuring myself, my views against each post, and this has helped me shape my view even more. so..., please keep in mind that what i am about to say is a personal viewpoint that has just budded as a result of reading all this, i.e., you do not need agree. this is just another female perspective out of many, from someone who has had a different past, a different experience, a different outlook, and perhaps a different goal.

Here goes:

When I first posted as ChiChi some pages ago (a big thanks to those who recognized me and did not give me away!), I made myself out to be that gal who is doing all she can to get her boat and cruise. I said, yes, I am in that 1% group of gals who love adventure, who like the work of it, who gets it. And this is and was true. I also said that I hope to meet my mate out there one day and share in the journey, right down to that delicious non-fattening part, as Pelagic so deftly described it. This too is/was true.

But now, now that i've read the in's and out's of this thread, i realize that, more than likely, i will not be respected or appreciated by most everyone out there, right down to the mechanic, the sailmaker, the guy who offers a to grab a line to help me dock if i do not own my boat.

1.) no offense to the women who are in wonderful relationships with their mates: i'm talking about the scenario where i meet my man out there, and i do want a sailor. I want the guy who says it like Saul Bellow, "Come, my love, we have oceans to sail."

2.) Please don't get feathers ruffled by this mates. consider this: i'd rather varnish than cook, so there is that for starters. Beyond this, I do not want to be expected to cook. this is just a sample example (as in, almost silly), but do you see my point?

beyond this, i have come to the conclusion that it is entirely in my interest to own my boat throughout that wonderful relationship. Why? Because i can keep my home/the boat if he dies (whether he keels over or falls off - a big thanks to Ann for pointing this out), and i can leave him at the dock (or elsewhere) if the relationship is not healthy (remember that sailor who took advantage of me in a despicable way? ahem).

as a female, this is the security i need. well, i think i need to create a stash so that i can buy another boat if something happens to this one (thanks Goat!) too... How long until i can retire again?

as someone who was married to a guy who spoke to me in his language for twenty years and as someone who progressively noted how i never stood the chance of being right (i am not much of a fighter, but still), there is surely some truth in this:
in being the one who owns the boat, i'll always have a small but consistent advantage when it comes to the decision-making process; and, if I may, please let me take this one step farther, it seems to me that only a good man, a very, very good man will feel proud to be with a gal who owns the boat.

that's it for me tonight. may the show go on!

[Carat]

[Gadagirl]

Originally Posted by Chichi

as someone who progressively noted how i never stood the chance of being right

LOL A famous quote from my Ex "Oh, you F@#× up and did something right." It didn't have the effect of building esteem or confidence or even a geuine thanks. Just a back handed divisive complimant meant purely to negate any pride I may have felt. But yes, Ex for a reason.

[barnakiel]

I believe needs for TRUST and SECURITY may be very unevenly distributed thru the man-woman spectrum. Beyond any doubt, to many women trust and security are essentials.

On my (male, masculine, extreme) end of the spectrum, trust is welcome but not a requirement. I check rather than trust, also myself. And I do understand many women place trust very high on their list and I know this is so because I have heard this from many. I must ask my partner on this. I expect to hear 'I will settle on a bottle of Grand Marnier Cordon Rouge' though.

Security, in my book, has no place in the boat. Security, to me, seems nearly idiomatic with situations where 'things do not change' this is to say they change at a very slow and often predictable rate. Maybe living aboard is a bit like that, but sailing seems quite the opposite - things will change, often, and take turns, most often in unexpected direction.

And why I say the above is not to deny but only to show that there is some, possibly misguided, discrepancy between trust and security and sailing life. In the old times one would say that a sailor opted for trust and security when one 'swallowed the anchor'.

A sailor may lure an attractive (attractive for any reason) lady, promising her trust and security. Then immediately he will cast the lines and set off for an ocean crossing towards the paradise islands of the Caribbean and the South Seas. This renders him untrustworthy and a sea voyage is definitely not a secure business but man what a hell of an adventure, affair and romance these two may find!

And financial security, to very many, is what will kill the sailing dream. Sure some of us got lucky and could have both. I too know such people. But it seems that most of us, sailors, will rather go too small, too early. Then live it to the full and then call it quits and chase another rabbit.

After all, the amount of money required to do some pretty extensive cruising today is funnily small compared to real life (land life) needs - we can get a boat and cruise for many years on a fraction of what it costs to buy a mortgaged house, two cars, three flatscreens and see two kids thru the Unis.

I like this thread in the part when different voices are heard. This makes me think of a huge barbacoa style cruisers' party in the Bahamas. We could have a big bonfire, get very drunk on bushbeer and have a wild orgy. Next morning there would still be some single men living aboard, except something is telling me these would be different men.

;-)

Love to all ya,
b.

[Carat]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I believe needs for TRUST and SECURITY may be very unevenly distributed thru the man-woman spectrum. Beyond any doubt, to many women trust and security are essentials.

On my (male, masculine, extreme) end of the spectrum, trust is welcome but not a requirement. I check rather than trust, also myself. And I do understand many women place trust very high on their list and I know this is so because I have heard this from many. I must ask my partner on this. I expect to hear 'I will settle on a bottle of Grand Marnier Cordon Rouge' though.

Security, in my book, has no place in the boat. Security, to me, seems nearly idiomatic with situations where 'things do not change' this is to say they change at a very slow and often predictable rate. Maybe living aboard is a bit like that, but sailing seems quite the opposite - things will change, often, and take turns, most often in unexpected direction.

And why I say the above is not to deny but only to show that there is some, possibly misguided, discrepancy between trust and security and sailing life. In the old times one would say that a sailor opted for trust and security when one 'swallowed the anchor'.

A sailor may lure an attractive (attractive for any reason) lady, promising her trust and security. Then immediately he will cast the lines and set off for an ocean crossing towards the paradise islands of the Caribbean and the South Seas. This renders him untrustworthy and a sea voyage is definitely not a secure business but man what a hell of an adventure, affair and romance these two may find!

And financial security, to very many, is what will kill the sailing dream. Sure some of us got lucky and could have both. I too know such people. But it seems that most of us, sailors, will rather go too small, too early. Then live it to the full and then call it quits and chase another rabbit.

After all, the amount of money required to do some pretty extensive cruising today is funnily small compared to real life (land life) needs - we can get a boat and cruise for many years on a fraction of what it costs to buy a mortgaged house, two cars, three flatscreens and see two kids thru the Unis.

I like this thread in the part when different voices are heard. This makes me think of a huge barbacoa style cruisers' party in the Bahamas. We could have a big bonfire, get very drunk on bushbeer and have a wild orgy. Next morning there would still be some single men living aboard, except something is telling me these would be different men.

;-)

Love to all ya,
b.

I concur. Well said, barnakiel.

[jillf]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I believe needs for TRUST and SECURITY may be very unevenly distributed thru the man-woman spectrum. Beyond any doubt, to many women trust and security are essentials.

On my (male, masculine, extreme) end of the spectrum, trust is welcome but not a requirement. I check rather than trust, also myself. And I do understand many women place trust very high on their list and I know this is so because I have heard this from many. I must ask my partner on this. I expect to hear 'I will settle on a bottle of Grand Marnier Cordon Rouge' though.

Security, in my book, has no place in the boat. Security, to me, seems nearly idiomatic with situations where 'things do not change' this is to say they change at a very slow and often predictable rate. Maybe living aboard is a bit like that, but sailing seems quite the opposite - things will change, often, and take turns, most often in unexpected direction.

While I'm quite CERTAIN that you are VERY, VERY manly, you are very, very wrong.

Security (financial, physical, psychological, or whatever) is achieved through planning and risk mitigation and while not exclusively masculine, I would not consider those traditional feminine pursuits. I certainly would not set sail on a boat with a captain (male or female) that did not take the security of his or her vessel VERY, VERY seriously.

And trust? Trust is the bedrock of any successful relationship (romantic, work, or friendship).

Now at least I know what the popcorn was for.
Guess I'll grab some too.
Love you more.