Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-10-2017, 20:45   #826
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,773
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Yes, but these recent articles and the data they rely on don't necessarily support the conclusion that any such pay gap is on account of gender discrimination. There are other factors that are in play, most notably that many more women than men opt to forego years of career advancement & earnings in order to raise children. This otherwise indispensable contribution to society often results in negative financial consequences as compared to men.
Hi Exile, you brought this up twice now, I've also unsuccessfully tried to draw attention to "is it prejudice based on gender" which I don't believe it is.

It simply gets ignored?

There's no doubt that anyone out of the workforce for an extended period of time (in this case women opting to be mothers) effects what one earns. Yet what I'm hearing here is women earn less based on gender discrimination.

White men get paided more because they are "white and male"?
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 20:49   #827
Registered User
 
redhead's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: PNW 48.59'45N 122.45'50W
Boat: Ian Ross design ketch 63'
Posts: 1,338
Images: 9
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

I've been reading this never ending thread and am surprised at what seems to be an, if not majority opinion, at least one that is disturbingly widespread.

I'm not one to share too much personal information, but just to give you a picture. My husband and I have been married for over 20 years, the second time around for both of us. I was married briefly (very briefly) in my teens and it ended pretty terribly. I never wanted to go down that road again and so for the next 19 years I remained legally single, although there were some memorable relationships along the way. My career, although unplanned was surprisingly successful. It seems I had a knack for the jobs I went after. Being single and childless I was able to travel and relocate in order to rise, and I did. Always having fun. I met my husband when he came to the house to fix the plumbing (yes, I've heard all the jokes). Eight months after meeting we got married.

Now I was the dreamer of all things sailing and he was the sailor. We had that in common from day one. I had the house, the insurance, the 401K, the expense account. He had a business that he had built up for 25 years (now over 40) and was sometimes flush with what seemed like obscene amounts of cash, sometimes not so much.

Now we are on a boat 3000 miles from his hometown and business. I am a gypsy on my dreamboat and together we fix it up. My retirement is funding most of what we're doing and admittedly, that bothers him. I spent my career building up to this moment and he was just keeping his business going and so didn't pay too much attention to things like retirement. But remember, this is my dream - he would have been happy staying in New York.

Although it doesn't bother me, it does him. In the beginning we thought it would tear us apart. We had the divorce discussion a couple of times but it was more like feeling the knife's edge. Now he travels back to NY 2 or 3 times a year to do some work for old customers and comes back with however much it takes to make him feel better. I don't blame him, money is power and if we don't accept that fact we would be lying. He's much happier with his own money and I'll put up with his absense if it means that while he's here he is happy.

I will put up with a lot if he is happy. His respect and laughter delight me. I unashamedly have a crush on my husband.

All that being said, I have met many women in my life and the ones that are being described are well in the minority. I may like them or dislike them, but they're not vultures, or conniving bitches scheming to ruin the next man's life. Where the hell are you finding all these creepy women?

So at long last here's my question: If there is this much mistrust and contempt for women, why on earth would you want one on your boat?
redhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 22:55   #828
Registered User
 
double u's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: forest city
Boat: no boat any more
Posts: 1,830
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

"Where the hell are you finding all these creepy women?"
...maybe they find them in the dark places they themselves inhabit...& they only get what they deserve!
how did one of your better presidents put it:
"...don't ask what your relationship/lady can do for you, ask what you can do for your relationship/lady"
__________________
...not all who wander are lost!
double u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 23:13   #829
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,175
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redhead View Post
All that being said, I have met many women in my life and the ones that are being described are well in the minority. I may like them or dislike them, but they're not vultures, or conniving bitches scheming to ruin the next man's life. Where the hell are you finding all these creepy women?

So at long last here's my question: If there is this much mistrust and contempt for women, why on earth would you want one on your boat?
Speaking only for myself, the short answer is that I wouldn't. But I've never been in a relationship with a woman anywhere close to a vulture or a creep, or a scheming conniving b***h out to ruin me as you put it. I wouldn't even call them gold diggers for that matter, although that's how it panned out. Instead, I found a few who I eventually learned had a clear sense of entitlement, and as time went on (months not years), it was simply expected that I pay for everything we did as a couple, that I supplement their income to help pay for their personal needs, and that I was somehow responsible for their insecurities over what I guess was some sense of power imbalance they felt (or whatever, who knows??).

So why did I opt to do it? Well, I tried to tell myself that maybe their expectations were consistent with the way they were raised, or maybe how other men had treated them in previous relationships. Ok, so why did I opt to stay with them? Maybe because, as you put it, "I will put up with a lot if she is happy. His Her respect and laughter delighted me. I unashamedly have had a crush on my husband girlfriend." Ultimately breaking it off had little to do with the money, and everything to do with tiring of this attitude of "expecting everything and appreciating little," along with the resentment over our respective financial positions that (oddly) seemed to accompany it. It's never as clear when you're living through it as it often becomes in hindsight, and sometimes we're pretty good at deluding ourselves about someone we care about.

I wouldn't doubt that this attitude is the minority as you say, and of course hope you're right. But there seems to be enough of it out there to make men (and maybe some women) who don't necessarily have a generalized "mistrust and contempt" rather wary. I can't figure out whether these attitudes come from some old-fashioned idea that the man is expected to be the breadwinner, a generalized sense of common victimization over actual or perceived gender-based pay gaps, or maybe just opportunistic, but I do know it rubs me the wrong way and so I need to avoid it. I have no problem footing the bill if that's what the practicalities require, but there has to be some give & take.
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 23:39   #830
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 20,719
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

I Googled and picked the first stats I came up with, from pewresearch:Racial, gender wage gaps persist in U.S. despite some progress | Pew Research Center There were other responses that I did not check.

The following was taken from a chart of median hourly earnings:

I was surprised, because white men's earnings are topped by Asian men's, which are 117% of white men's. Black men earn 73 % of white men; and Hispanics, 69%.

For Women, the Asian women earn 87% of white men; white women, 82%, Black, 65%, and Hispanic 58 %.

So, as to white people, yes, white men earn more than white women, and this has been true for a very long time. I remember reading about it in the mid-fifties.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 23:54   #831
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 11,171
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
I Googled and picked the first stats I came up with, from pewresearch:Racial, gender wage gaps persist in U.S. despite some progress | Pew Research Center There were other responses that I did not check.

The following was taken from a chart of median hourly earnings:

I was surprised, because white men's earnings are topped by Asian men's, which are 117% of white men's. Black men earn 73 % of white men; and Hispanics, 69%.

For Women, the Asian women earn 87% of white men; white women, 82%, Black, 65%, and Hispanic 58 %.

So, as to white people, yes, white men earn more than white women, and this has been true for a very long time. I remember reading about it in the mid-fifties.

Ann
From the same source:
What contributes to these persistent wage gaps? Research shows that a majority of each of these gaps can be explained by differences in education, labor force experience, occupation or industry and other measurable factors.
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2017, 00:15   #832
Registered User
 
double u's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: forest city
Boat: no boat any more
Posts: 1,830
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

"differences in education"- don't know about the US of A, but around here average female education level is higher than male (university degrees, highschool, ...), & still there is the pay-gap
__________________
...not all who wander are lost!
double u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2017, 00:30   #833
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,175
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
I Googled and picked the first stats I came up with, from pewresearch:Racial, gender wage gaps persist in U.S. despite some progress | Pew Research Center There were other responses that I did not check.

The following was taken from a chart of median hourly earnings:

I was surprised, because white men's earnings are topped by Asian men's, which are 117% of white men's. Black men earn 73 % of white men; and Hispanics, 69%.

For Women, the Asian women earn 87% of white men; white women, 82%, Black, 65%, and Hispanic 58 %.

So, as to white people, yes, white men earn more than white women, and this has been true for a very long time. I remember reading about it in the mid-fifties.

Ann
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
From the same source:
What contributes to these persistent wage gaps? Research shows that a majority of each of these gaps can be explained by differences in education, labor force experience, occupation or industry and other measurable factors.
Add'l stats from the same source indicate that approx. 25% of women attribute at least some of their pay gap with men to gender discrimination, but it doesn't explain why and doesn't purport to be based on any measurable factors.

I don't understand why any of this is all that surprising, and it doesn't show how much the gap may or may not have progressed since the 1950's. But more to the point, what does this have to do with how a cruising couple handles their finances when there's a disparity between them? Is any particular woman necessarily entitled to support from a man solely on account of a pay gap between all women & men?? I'm not understanding the connection.
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2017, 00:32   #834
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,175
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by double u View Post
"differences in education"- don't know about the US of A, but around here average female education level is higher than male (university degrees, highschool, ...), & still there is the pay-gap
Education is only one of a number of measurable factors. See posts immediately above.
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2017, 01:24   #835
Registered User
 
double u's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: forest city
Boat: no boat any more
Posts: 1,830
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

...if partnership-considerations have reached the level of finance - it's a lost cause.
in our partnership of 39 & marriage of 29 years & 17 of those living on board (in the course of which we did 3 rtws) finance & how much either of us contributed or didn't never came up once, not one singletime!
see also my post abt. "women at sea" here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2268064
__________________
...not all who wander are lost!
double u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2017, 02:46   #836
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 9,572
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
....Pelagic spoke of the virtue of selfishness. It would be well for all of us to acknowledge our own; hopefully it would lead to understanding one's partner's, as well.

Ann
Hi Ann, I think it is important that I define the virtue of "selfishness" within the context of my philosophy.

The virtue of Selfishness is an acknowledgement that a persons act of material kindness and compassion, is based on the phylosophy that this action is for self centered purposes.
IE. It makes them feel good and no other reward or acknowledgement is needed.
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2017, 03:18   #837
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,773
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Hi Ann, I think it is important that I define the virtue of "selfishness" within the context of my philosophy.

The virtue of Selfishness is an acknowledgement that a persons act of material kindness and compassion, is based on the phylosophy that this action is for self centered purposes.
IE. It makes them feel good and no other reward or acknowledgement is needed.
I'd agree, have thought the same. It can be argued a selfless act is also a selfish act due to the pleasure or emotional rewards one receives.
I also believe that selfish is often thrown around (negativily) to much.
Often some one who chooses not to have children is labelled "selfish" yet one could argue having children is selfish.
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2017, 03:38   #838
Registered User
 
brownoarsman's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Round Bay, Severn River
Boat: Formerly Pearson 28-1, now just a sailing dinghy
Posts: 1,332
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
But more to the point, what does this have to do with how a cruising couple handles their finances when there's a disparity between them? Is any particular woman necessarily entitled to support from a man solely on account of a pay gap between all women & men?? I'm not understanding the connection.
Only so much as to say that, if you are looking for a relationship partner to cruise with, on average, as a male, you should expect to pay more than 50% of the total cost of the journey (not withstanding redhead's experience).

Because, as of you've noted, due to life circumstances (children, out of the workforce), societal circumstances (shunted into lower-paying occupations, e.g. nurse vs doctor, paralegal vs lawyer, etc.), and/or discrimination (if you believe in it), women are less likely to have developed a sizeable kitty they can live securely on as compared to men, due to lower earnings in each year of their work and possibly less paid work overall, and are going to need that kitty to last longer given longer lifespans, all again, on average.
brownoarsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2017, 03:40   #839
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 9,572
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
Part of what I have seen over the years is that women who are not married to their skippers, when he dies suddenly, they become homeless as soon as the death certificate is signed. Then, his legal family owns the boat, and turfs her out, and in some cases, it is done with great cruelty.
Ann
That is a really good observation Ann and I think probably more of a common problem, where a nomadic cruising lifestyle does not lend itself to creating financial security in foreign lands.

The other consideration is that many women who commit to a budget cruising lifestyle, have never been attracted towards building a career, so may have very few assets and generally poor business skills.

They are more of the traditional home maker personality, but with a love for ocean travel and of course their partner. (You)

This is where the onus to provide financial security for your partner in the event of your death, should be an undeniable obligation!

Setting up an incontestable Will with an executor / Trustee listed as an emergency contact is the best way to provide you with confidence that your partner will be well looked after.
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2017, 03:48   #840
Registered User
 
brownoarsman's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Round Bay, Severn River
Boat: Formerly Pearson 28-1, now just a sailing dinghy
Posts: 1,332
Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
"Anyone other than a white male makes less in the same job" quote.

There's a big absolute statement!
I can think of at least one occupation where it's not likely true! I kid, I kid.

Click image for larger version

Name:	download.jpg
Views:	70
Size:	14.8 KB
ID:	158234
brownoarsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising, living aboard, men, single

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out Rustic Charm Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 401 23-02-2021 11:49
Make a Living, Living Aboard JanetGroene Boat Ownership & Making a Living 0 19-11-2010 12:28

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:10.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.