Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

[john61ct]

The super-high income households that drive up the averages, you don't get to knock on those doors.

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by daletournier

That's awesome BTW, that's hopefully what these sort of discussions achieve , provoking of thoughts and questioning of norms.

I tend to be abit of a contrarian, I like questioning what we've always accepted to be true. So far that's worked for me.

Yup! And that goes for everyone, too. I'm finding it valuable to read and understand everyone's positions, some to emulate, some to avoid, and all to learn from!

[BandB]

Wifey B: I'm finding it eye opening, shows an attitude that appears common in the sailing world. We have another showing attitudes just as bad in the crewbay thread. Now, those of you having a hard time finding that perfect female to accompany you, I can tell you why. In many cases the girl you want to find doesn't want to be with you. As long as you see relationship problems as always caused by the other person, why would they? As long as you look down on females, no modern, capable female is going to say yes to you. You'll only get the weaker ones.

The couple I'll point out here that has been sailing together since almost the beginning of time is Jim and Ann Cate. They've got a relationship of mutual interests and respect.

As to the crap being tossed around arguing inequality in pay, deny the problem all you want but it's real. In fact, it's broader. Anyone other than a white male makes less in the same job. Now, it's not true on jobs like teachers or nurses with set pay, but it's true on nearly every profession that isn't set. In education it's true at the Superintendent level, it's true at the college professor and dean level. It's true at the CEO level, although a couple recently have broken through. Someone said not true for lawyers or surgeons I think, but it absolutely is. It's true all the way up in the medical profession, starting with chief resident. It's true in public accounting. We fool ourselves into thinking we've made progress we haven't. The statistics are an ugly reminder.

I've never suffered in pay by being female and we employ so many females in our highest management positions with a female CEO and COO, with 80% of our key employees female including non traditional female jobs like Captains and Engineers. However, just because it hasn't impacted me directly, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ultimately, the statistics don't lie.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Chichi

........So back to the question: to be the giver or not the giver...
....Oh my, it is not easy for anyone.

I think we all have a tendency to moralize our actions, which often leads to poor judgements and compromised outcomes because of that emotional baggage.

Years back, I reflected on "the importance of being selfish"....from the philosophical perspective of a decision making tool.

Simply put.....if you accept that every decision and action you make is for selfish reasons ....then it frees you from having any recioprical expectations from others, or falling into some kind of martyrs mindset that drains the spirit.

It is very empowering!

[a64pilot]

Females on average do in fact make less pay.
You think maybe, that Maternity leave and the propensity to quit the job after having a child just might have a little to do with it?

As far as pay of employees who’s pay is not set. I have a secret for you, employers will pay as little as they can, it maximizes their profits.
If your a manufacturer, you pay as little as you can for raw materials and charge as high as the market will bear for your products too.

So is it the employers fault for paying Women less, or Women’s fault for accepting less?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Females on average do in fact make less pay.
You think maybe, that Maternity leave and the propensity to quit the job after having a child just might have a little to do with it?

Yes. Maybe the most significant factor.

Originally Posted by Exile

Yes, but these recent articles and the data they rely on don't necessarily support the conclusion that any such pay gap is on account of gender discrimination. There are other factors that are in play, most notably that many more women than men opt to forego years of career advancement & earnings in order to raise children. This otherwise indispensable contribution to society often results in negative financial consequences as compared to men.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by BandB

Wifey B: I'm finding it eye opening, shows an attitude that appears common in the sailing world. We have another showing attitudes just as bad in the crewbay thread. Now, those of you having a hard time finding that perfect female to accompany you, I can tell you why. In many cases the girl you want to find doesn't want to be with you. As long as you see relationship problems as always caused by the other person, why would they? As long as you look down on females, no modern, capable female is going to say yes to you. You'll only get the weaker ones.

I thought we were talking about relationship conflicts arising from one person having possibly unrealistic or inappropriate expectations of financial support from the other? Isn't that gender-neutral, and more of a character trait that occasions both the weaker & stronger alike?

The couple I'll point out here that has been sailing together since almost the beginning of time is Jim and Ann Cate. They've got a relationship of mutual interests and respect.

Certainly seems that way, and worthy of admiration. Perhaps especially since they both experienced first marriages that didn't work out.

As to the crap being tossed around arguing inequality in pay, deny the problem all you want but it's real. In fact, it's broader. Anyone other than a white male makes less in the same job. Now, it's not true on jobs like teachers or nurses with set pay, but it's true on nearly every profession that isn't set. In education it's true at the Superintendent level, it's true at the college professor and dean level. It's true at the CEO level, although a couple recently have broken through. Someone said not true for lawyers or surgeons I think, but it absolutely is. It's true all the way up in the medical profession, starting with chief resident. It's true in public accounting. We fool ourselves into thinking we've made progress we haven't. The statistics are an ugly reminder.

I don't doubt the gap, but question that no progress has been made. Would like to see some relevant stats on that one, along with what may be perpetuating it.

I've never suffered in pay by being female and we employ so many females in our highest management positions with a female CEO and COO, with 80% of our key employees female including non traditional female jobs like Captains and Engineers. However, just because it hasn't impacted me directly, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ultimately, the statistics don't lie.

I guess the thread relevance on all of this is whether this pay gap disproportionately affects women over men with their financial wherewithal to join their significant others in the cruising lifestyle. I think that was what Ann was suggesting, but maybe difficult if not impossible to generalize. If, as in say Dale's example or mine, the woman would not be encumbered with a mortgage, car payment, maintenance costs, or maybe even provisioning, does this level the financial playing field enough to make affordability less of an issue?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Years back, I reflected on "the importance of being selfish"....from the philosophical perspective of a decision making tool.

Simply put.....if you accept that every decision and action you make is for selfish reasons ....then it frees you from having any recioprical expectations from others, or falling into some kind of martyrs mindset that drains the spirit.

It is very empowering!

This seems like a great way of looking at a seemingly very complex issue, although some of the most selfish may, by virtue of their own self-centeredness, lack the capacity to do so! But certainly an insightful tool for those who may be resentful about thoughts of not getting back what they feel they have put in.

[JPA Cate]

Part of what I have seen over the years is that women who are not married to their skippers, when he dies suddenly, they become homeless as soon as the death certificate is signed. Then, his legal family owns the boat, and turfs her out, and in some cases, it is done with great cruelty.

To me, this above is why, imho, the woman needs financial security above and beyond just being with her chosen fellow, she needs some kind of retirement and medical. The loss of your total support system along with your beloved and your home is too huge a risk to not find a way to help herself out of.

Not being a man, i really don't know how this shakes out for one, but, really, if it were her boat, and she supporting him, I really think he should have a good backup plan in case of a catastrophic event to her.

Pelagic spoke of the virtue of selfishness. It would be well for all of us to acknowledge our own; hopefully it would lead to understanding one's partner's, as well.

Ann

[Olddan1943]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Part of what I have seen over the years is that women who are not married to their skippers, when he dies suddenly, they become homeless as soon as the death certificate is signed. Then, his legal family owns the boat, and turfs her out, and in some cases, it is done with great cruelty.

Pelagic spoke of the virtue of selfishness. It would be well for all of us to acknowledge our own; hopefully it would lead to understanding one's partner's, as well.

Ann

So much for a compassionate family. I think my family would handle it differently according to my verbal instructions.
I hesitate to put it in writing because it is difficult to undo things legally.

Example: A woman who wants a defined cash amount upon the husband's death verses a defined percentage. Put it all into a Trust and divvy up within the Trust.

Per the boat? Sell it, split the proceeds as defined within the Trust, being generous to the lady for putting up with the old fart.

There are other ways to dispose of his assets.... assuming it is not his wife for she usually gets it all. Perhaps an escalating clause based upon the number of years together.

Gotta think about her health insurance too.

I am thankful I have a family who understands such things.

WARNING: I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV. The above are merely suggestion.

Okay, I'm done. Let the fights begin.

[sandrunner]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Part of what I have seen over the years is that women who are not married to their skippers, when he dies suddenly, they become homeless as soon as the death certificate is signed. Then, his legal family owns the boat, and turfs her out, and in some cases, it is done with great cruelty.

To me, this above is why, imho, the woman needs financial security above and beyond just being with her chosen fellow, she needs some kind of retirement and medical. The loss of your total support system along with your beloved and your home is too huge a risk to not find a way to help herself out of.

Not being a man, i really don't know how this shakes out for one, but, really, if it were her boat, and she supporting him, I really think he should have a good backup plan in case of a catastrophic event to her.

Pelagic spoke of the virtue of selfishness. It would be well for all of us to acknowledge our own; hopefully it would lead to understanding one's partner's, as well.

Ann

Well said Anne and admittedly a topic I grapple with at times between my own ears. I would like to think I have various scenarios covered, but ultimately "think" doesn't get it done after the fact.

[a64pilot]

Take what Ann said, and average lifespan of a Woman as opposed to the average Man, and add in the average age difference between married couples.
That makes it pretty plain that any Woman that does not have concerns about finances is either independently wealthy, or likely very foolish.
I’d bet on average that the Woman lives ten years after the death of her husband, couple that with as he got old and infirm she was likely to be able to assist in his care, but who is going to assist her?
A Man that has been married for decades and does not plan on her outliving him, and Plan on how she is to be provided for financially, is a Cad.
After I die, I don’t want my Wife to have to live in poverty and eat cat food as she doesn’t have the skill set to know how to get public assistance.

Everyone should be concerned about how they live their “golden years” cause if your destitute, I’d think they may be a nightmare.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Part of what I have seen over the years is that women who are not married to their skippers, when he dies suddenly, they become homeless as soon as the death certificate is signed. Then, his legal family owns the boat, and turfs her out, and in some cases, it is done with great cruelty.

To me, this above is why, imho, the woman needs financial security above and beyond just being with her chosen fellow, she needs some kind of retirement and medical. The loss of your total support system along with your beloved and your home is too huge a risk to not find a way to help herself out of.

Not being a man, i really don't know how this shakes out for one, but, really, if it were her boat, and she supporting him, I really think he should have a good backup plan in case of a catastrophic event to her.

Pelagic spoke of the virtue of selfishness. It would be well for all of us to acknowledge our own; hopefully it would lead to understanding one's partner's, as well.

Ann

That's an awful scenario, and is hopefully the result of the deceased spouse's oversight or neglect as opposed to any malice towards the surviving spouse. But it's probably more applicable to longer-term relationships where expectations are more certain and well-established. It is true that marriage confers legally enforceable financial rights to protect both parties. But it would be nice to think this is a natural consequence of a committed relationship and not the other way around. In the absence of formal marriage, there are other ways of getting it done, but it requires a bit more effort & diligence. The boat itself could be re-titled in joint tenancy, automatically giving each spouse 100% ownership should the other die. A will or trust coupled with a durable power of attorney may be advisable for both spouses in the event one becomes incapacitated short of death. Life insurance could also work well under these circumstances. Then the surviving spouse could get some liquid assets and wouldn't necessarily be compelled to sell the boat, or could do so at a more leisurely pace.

But much of this is also advisable for married couples, but then again not necessarily appropriate at all for some in shorter term relationships other than marriage. In some cases, being relieved of the expense of housing, provisions, maintenance costs, etc. by one partner could allow whatever assets the other partner left behind to be invested and to grow. It depends on each couple's particular circumstances and probably doesn't lend itself well to assumptions that apply generally.

[daletournier]

"Anyone other than a white male makes less in the same job" quote.

There's a big absolute statement!

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Females on average do in fact make less pay.
You think maybe, that Maternity leave and the propensity to quit the job after having a child just might have a little to do with it?

As far as pay of employees who’s pay is not set. I have a secret for you, employers will pay as little as they can, it maximizes their profits.
If your a manufacturer, you pay as little as you can for raw materials and charge as high as the market will bear for your products too.

So is it the employers fault for paying Women less, or Women’s fault for accepting less?

Hi A64, employers paying less to workers that don't have set pay rate doesn't just apply to women, but (some) employers will pay men less to all employees if they can also.

Is it the employers fault, the employees fault (for accepting the less), the consumers fault for always demanding more for less eating away at profits or the costs of over regulation on small businesses?

These things are complicated, but employees will always view the employer as the bad guy (although he created a business that employees ).