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Old 23-10-2017, 00:56   #796
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

If I am not mistaken, Marriage and Religion have just been introduced to this topic

I really don't think it is a useful tool in finding clarity.

We all have differing versions of the psychological baggage that we pick up during our formative years.

Some people need guidance and whatever is the socially accepted practice of their Peers.

Others take a Utilitarian philosophy and simply go with what works for them.

My point is that "judgements" are meaningless when it comes to sexually charged relationships because we tend to take our animalistic urges and apply socioreligious parameters to feelings that are often full of mixed messages.

Some people actually like their relationships and sex rough and eventful.

I try not to judge them.
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Old 23-10-2017, 00:57   #797
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

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Involuntary circumcision of little girls and honor killings are "important if not sacred institutions for many, many people", does that mean everyone should respect them?

Moral equivalence? Same degree of harm? The absurdity of your analogy is self-evident and doesn't require further critique.

Sure if you choose to, want to set high expectations, go ahead.

What's worthy of respect are the many people I admire who believe in the institution of marriage and try to live up to its ideals. This has little to do with my own personal views on the subject, nor yours. I don't need to be a convert to someone else's religion (or any religion) to accompany them to their church every so often. It's only a matter of respect & tolerance, and certainly presents no threat to my own beliefs.

I think the only valid reasons to involve church and the law in our relationships are religious and legal/financial ones, not just outmoded traditions or social expectations.

I agree to an extent, but probably think it's a combo of all those factors. But regardless, many good people have strong feelings about marriage being a foundational issue in their lives and those of their families. I don't see much harm in that, and to the extent it helps keep families together it's a positive.

But that's just me.
That's pretty obvious.
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Old 23-10-2017, 01:02   #798
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

"...our animalistic urges..."
there are only those! everything else is a smokescreen!
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Old 23-10-2017, 01:02   #799
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

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No, I was just expressing my puzzlement why people seemed to be treating getting married as the default mode for having a sailing / living partner.

Especially since so many were talking up the resulting financial hazards.
Hi John, I agree, why is it the default mode? that's probably my point earlier on, time to discuss other realities without judgement or taking the moral high ground that comes with the old institution type thinking.

Do what works, conventional or not..... there's no rules.
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Old 23-10-2017, 01:39   #800
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

anecdotal evidence: seems to be more of a default mode in the US of A than here on the "continent"
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Old 23-10-2017, 02:58   #801
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

Yes.....no one really expected the Spanish Inquisition!
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Old 23-10-2017, 03:34   #802
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

I wasn't planning on coming back (as ChiChi), but the latest turn in this discussion is so honest, so important: to be or not to be the giver... I do not know the answer but I'll tell you a very personal story.

First off, please know that I'm frugal by nature, and ever so much more frugal since have made a plan that will (hopefully) give me the life i want to live. For decades now, I cut my own hair, do not buy make-up or creams (put olive oil or coconut oil on my skin). A toothbrush, toothpaste, hairbrush, shampoo and I'm good to go. I'm debtless and in the ever-nearing future (fingers crossed tightly) will be the proud owner of my time. I wanna live on a boat you see and cruise... A few years ago as the big 5-0 came around the bend, I made the decision, not to jump off a bridge, but to make my dream come true.

I actually wrote my dream down on two pieces of paper back in the eighties, and somehow these survived the 1989 hurricane. They were in my sister's things, and I fell upon them while helping her move last year. On one, the journey extended across oceans with stops in oh so many places. it was just short of being a circumnavigation. I described the boat too. On the other, I wrote that I had dreamed it: i was raising my two kids on the boat, and my son who was dealing with the sail at the forepeak, was a math wiz (this is a fun point because, my son really is a math wiz in real life). I wrote that I with a wonderful man. When I read my words last year, I nearly fell out of my chair. I had found my bucket list years after having remembered what my dream was. I took photos and sent them to my ex-husband, and this really helped somehow...

So what's my excuse for having lost sight?

I'm a slow bloomer. But beyond being a slow bloomer, I've got a major weakness, a handicap in my decision-making process (it runs in my family, in my dad, my sis...). It showed up early on but no one noticed the pattern.

When I was nearly five, I took a butter knife to a jukebox, stole every quarter in there and invited my childhood sweetheart, David, to the candy story to buy him everything his heart desired.

I remember the utter joy I felt to offer the whole store to him, as if I was offering the stars themselves. David was reluctant at first, and I remember saying, "try this one, this one too. This should be good." It felt so good.

The candy store owner (in our small town) dialed up my mother, and before I knew it, I suffered the humiliation of my life: i had to ask David to give my offerings back.

I never stole again, that's for sure. the thing is, it wasn't until fairly recently (when my folks passed away a few years ago) that i realized that the lesson that needed to be learned was completely overlooked.


You know where this is going. My life story: I fell into that trap, that trap of providing for everyone else but myself: when the hub said he wanted to open his own business; i turned into the woman behind the man behind the wheel. when the kids came into this world, constantly giving became the norm. and then it became what was expected of me. i pushed the hold button on my dreams. and it was as if I didn't WANT to notice, because the giving gave me joy. actually, maternal hormones amplify the joy; it is difficult to do otherwise. It was when the maternal hormones faded that i noticed where my life was and how i was being treated...

Why give so much, to one's detriment (and i do not want to dwell on this, but it was)? Giving gave me a sense of achieving something more important than my own career/wants: my kids are ex-chess champs, who play music and draw. they are well-mannered, educated, bilingual, cultivated... but they were raised in the city. You guess it: my ex doesn't like water. He doesn't like boats. He doesn't even like to swim. He wanted a brilliant career and needed my help, which I gave, of course. I was married for twenty years.

But grief, to get untangled without hurting everyone (this is a tough one!), to get back onto my feet, to think about my ideals (for a change) has taken so much of my energy. and the Focus, the focus required so to meet as many of everyone else's needs and expectations as possible has run me ragged. It boils down to this: in pursuing my definition of happiness, my dream, without tearing my kids lives apart, without crippling my ex's efforts, I am leaving behind a potentially very comfortable life that I helped build. that's my choice.

Anyhow, my father, who had this same handicap, never experienced the wake-up call: he gave and gave and gave... and got taken to the cleaners. he gave and/or was suckered (two sides of the same coin) out of every dime he made. He didn't realize that, in giving, he was the one who became dependent.

My sis is the same and, like me, put all her energy into the ex-hub's career. She left good work as a paralegal to help him build his dental practice, and this after putting him through medical school (twenty-seven years ago). Post-divorce, in her fifties, she can no longer keep pace within the paralegal field. She got screwed over in her divorce and is a receptionist now... chained to routine.

And she is all about her son. She makes me wonder if a mother even has the right to break out of the full-fledged commitment to family life. I've thought long and hard about this and found that, as much as it may not feel like it at times, the answer is yes. It cut me so deeply when my father went to the grave feeling used, dissatisfied, mistreated. He never pursued his dream, never heeded his bucket list. Deep down I know that my kids will benefit more from seeing me achieve my definition of happiness, and this is the best gift I can give them.


So back to the question: to be the giver or not the giver... For me, giving is a good thing, a very good thing. It is an emotional necessity and a fundamental part of what we call humanity. Conscious of how it can lead to those traps of losing perspective, losing one's footing, i find that the trick is to define it as a pleasure that I'm actually giving myself. i try to contain it by deciding that it is something i can allow myself to do only if it is in concordance with my core values and doesn't deter me from my own dreams, my bucket list.. that said, gauging the impulse is not that easy...

When I meet young people (especially the ones who are obviously givers), I encourage them to draw up their bucket list, tape it to the wall where they can see it every morning and cross off those things that they've achieved, add on more things as they go, and MOST IMPORTANTLY use it to guide them as they make life decisions, when they take a turn in life, and especially when they fall in love. We, as humans, waist so much time fixing bad decisions. I am convinced that using the bucket list as described here can help avoid this. The proof that it works: Last night I went on a date... with someone who doesn't want to live on a boat, who doesn't want to cast off. Thank goodness I found those two pieces of paper!

My feeling is that I am a lucky girl. I learned something along the way that is helping me take control of my life (I also read a couple of books about making passive income - working on it), but many, many women have similar stories and are, like my dear sis, working as a receptionist. She is lonely; she wants to travel; she wants to break out of the killing routine, but she is bound to the mortgage payment, a debt that is providing a safe and comfortable place for her son... (please note that my kids have a great dad but her son doesn't - and, in essence, this is why i'm lucky.) I really feel for my sis. She is stuck. To think that she could meet a guy and sail with him and perhaps find complicity and happiness... only to find herself confronted with the very things that make you guys so frustrated...

Oh my, it is not easy for anyone.
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Old 23-10-2017, 03:38   #803
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

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The average household income in Australia is $106,000......go door knocking and see how many households have that coming in, could just be "my perception" but I think you will find the average household doesn't have that amount or even close to that coming in.... Statistics will suggest I'm wrong.
Which average(s) are you talking about? Mean, median or mode?
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Old 23-10-2017, 04:05   #804
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

...& on how many doors could you knock, 1000, 10.000, 100.000? it would still be statistically insignificant.
it's very difficult but we should make an effort to discount our anecdotal evidence
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Old 23-10-2017, 04:59   #805
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

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Which average(s) are you talking about? Mean, median or mode?
Stu, from past posts i know your a stickler to "perfect" when it comes to terminology, grammar etc etc, if you struggle with what i say , so be it, I'm just not going there.
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Old 23-10-2017, 05:37   #806
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

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Stu, from past posts i know your a stickler to "perfect" when it comes to terminology, grammar etc etc, if you struggle with what i say , so be it, I'm just not going there.
Stu's point is that the average $106k could be 9 families making zero and one family making $1,060,000, or ten families making $106k each. Same average, very different median and modal statistics, and very different results depending on how many doors you knock on.

Similarly, while every female doctor you meet may be making the same as every male doctor, this doesn't take into account the large number of female nurses, who themselves may have chosen to be doctors (and so earn more) if it were not for the commitments of motherhood, societal expectations, etc. Hence, the overall average income for women is lower. I think ChiChi's story explains this statistic well, anecdotally.

Consequently, when you look at the assumed target market on this new part of the thread of 45-60+ year old women, hoping to meet financially-independent women who have never had children reduces your possibilities tremendously. Not to say you can't do it, just that it's harder.

I'm not saying that to you, specifically, Dale, just in general. It sounds like you've got a relationship that works for you and are all the better for it. Congratulations!
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Old 23-10-2017, 05:41   #807
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

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There is not a great deal of participation in this thread by women, and that may be as it should be.

It is not one I belong in very much
Yeah, Ann. If this thread wanted balanced, well thought out, and reasoned commentary, the OP would have named it "Smart comments from women who sail"

Just kidding, everyone. Ann, thanks for your always thoughtful comments. As a youngish man with the future wide-open still, the nature of compromise and relationship structure that this thread has highlighted has given me some things to think about!
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Old 23-10-2017, 06:51   #808
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

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Stu's point is that the average $106k could be 9 families making zero and one family making $1,060,000, or ten families making $106k each. Same average, very different median and modal statistics, and very different results depending on how many doors you knock on.

Similarly, while every female doctor you meet may be making the same as every male doctor, this doesn't take into account the large number of female nurses, who themselves may have chosen to be doctors (and so earn more) if it were not for the commitments of motherhood, societal expectations, etc. Hence, the overall average income for women is lower. I think ChiChi's story explains this statistic well, anecdotally.

Consequently, when you look at the assumed target market on this new part of the thread of 45-60+ year old women, hoping to meet financially-independent women who have never had children reduces your possibilities tremendously. Not to say you can't do it, just that it's harder.

I'm not saying that to you, specifically, Dale, just in general. It sounds like you've got a relationship that works for you and are all the better for it. Congratulations!
Yes I agree women often give up their careers or choose not to have careers in order to have children, that's not what I'm debating. I'm debating the interpretation that women get paided less for the same job as a man , I believe this isn't true.

I'm not sure that's what StuM is getting at, I question his motives , he likes correct terminology and goes there when ever he can, he knew what I meant.

Statistics, I'll back out, it's an argument I can't win, still not convinced, and don't accept anecdotal observation is worthless, it's a big part of learning and growing. The statistic thing has been debated many times before.

In regards to my relationship working... Lol.... It's a relationship, it's working sometimes and not other times, like my life it's a work in progress. We adapt and change.
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Old 23-10-2017, 06:57   #809
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

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Stu's point is that the average $106k could be 9 families making zero and one family making $1,060,000, or ten families making $106k each. Same average, very different median and modal statistics, and very different results depending on how many doors you knock on.
You got it. Govt statistics use both the median and mean household income and they are very different.

FWIW, The median weekly income was $1638 (85,000 p.a.), but the mean was $2,109 (110,000) in 2015/16 according to the Bureau of Statistics.

IOW, median households (which are the one that Dale would probably call "average" in this situation) do indeed earn a lot less than the mean household income. (which is probably the figure which Dale quoted).
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Old 23-10-2017, 07:03   #810
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Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

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Yeah, Ann. If this thread wanted balanced, well thought out, and reasoned commentary, the OP would have named it "Smart comments from women who sail"

Just kidding, everyone. Ann, thanks for your always thoughtful comments. As a youngish man with the future wide-open still, the nature of compromise and relationship structure that this thread has highlighted has given me some things to think about!
That's awesome BTW, that's hopefully what these sort of discussions achieve , provoking of thoughts and questioning of norms.

I tend to be abit of a contrarian, I like questioning what we've always accepted to be true. So far that's worked for me.
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