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Old 25-03-2020, 15:22   #61
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

We were getting ready to leave for an extended journey and at that time we had a CS36 in near perfect condition. We were sitting in a marina on a river that lead to the Georgia Strait which was our escape route to the Pacific. Just cleaning up a few little jobs and waiting for a cold front to pass.
There was a little woodie sitting at the dock and all sorts of noises were coming out of it. Next day I dropped by and tapped on the hull and two smiling faces appeared, he was 26 and she was 22 and they were sailing to Mexico and beyond. They invited me in to have a beer, I enjoy young people so accepted. It was 26 feet in length with about 8 feet in beam with a full keel. They had pretty much ripped the interior out and were making major changes. I quickly checked their work and explained that they shouldn't fool with the structural parts and carefully pointed them out. They had no fridge, a small solar panel that gave them lights/vhf and a single battery. This was prior to GPS days so no power needed for all the stuff we have now. These kids had very little experience sailing and were asking questions a mile a minute. They had about 3 grand into the boat and all their upgrades were done with their own labor and most materials were scrounged. My wife kept saying they would never go but I knew differently. There's something about how people approach a challenge that kinda tells you just how committed they really are. Long story short the next time I saw them was in the Baja in Mexico, they rowed their little hard dink over early one morning after arriving in our anchorage and were so excited to see us. First words out of his mouth...hey do you think you can teach me to spear fish..consider it done and I spent the next several days teaching him and talking about sailing. They ended up sailing half way around the world in that little woodie and on a budget that even I couldn't believe. Never saw either of them without the biggest and brightest smiles on the planet, they were loving it.
So my message is this, don't ever count young people out especially if they are driven by a purpose. You can't take your older mind that wants little to no risk and high in comfort sailing lifestyle and project that on to young people. It just doesn't work, these kids are in the prime of their lives and are capable of doing things we can't even imagine anymore. I've seen this over and over throughout the years. My advice to a young couple is don't ask old farts if something is possible, tell old farts what your going to do and don't bother listening to the naysayers, get your advice from people that actually lived a similar lifestyle. If they really want to cross oceans and are made of the right material, if they are bright and learn quickly then don't think they are not capable of pulling it off.
I met a young couple with 2 small children in Mexico that sailed from Vancouver that were on a circumnavigation. They built the steel boat themselves, 36 feet and they learned to sail enroute to Mexico. I laughed until tears flowed when they recounted some of their experiences. No middle age person would attempt what they did but they did it. Points for the young. That's why they get sent to fight wars, they think they are invincible and most of the time they are.
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Old 29-03-2020, 08:11   #62
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Ruin your dreams?? Hell no!
I'll be the first to tell you go make them happen!

We met a wise old man in mexico about 8years ago (right after we quit our jobs to go live our dreams) who after serving us ample tequila and sage advice offered some of the best advice ive ever gotten:
"How do you know when to take the leap?" we asked.
"If you're young enough to fail... always take the leap"

Only problem being... we still haven't figured out what "young enough to recover" translates to exactly. Even then we were almost a decade older than you are now, were living out of an old beat up '67 VW bus and driving Mexico and Central America from beach to beach with only enough funds to last another year (if we were lucky).

Here we are, 8yrs later and living our real dream... the one we never thought we could achieve and certainly thought we were giving up by quitting our jobs in our 30s with no real plan for the future.

We're 18 months into teaching ourselves to sail while island hopping the caribbean (and hopefully further) and literally having the time of our lives each and every day (though that's not to say there's not ample stress, fears, problems and chaos along the way).

Don't let anyone talk you out of following your dream (in fact, probably better to not even ask, much less listen to the responses)!!

Let me be very clear... That doesn't mean all the advice here isn't sound. It very much is!
BUT... you don't have to have all the pieces figured out first, which is the big thing most here have never figured out and why many will never actually go. Don't become one of the masses.

I say make your dream happen at any cost and figure it out as you go.

There are plenty of cruisers out here floating with us who work as they go. Plenty who change boats along the way.
Plenty who run out of money and keep figuring it out.
Plenty doing it far cheaper than you have planned (but most probably on a far cheaper boat they bought in cash).
And Plenty more (including us) spending way more than that.

Fair to say, there are also plenty who actually realize they don't love this lifestyle a few months in after dreaming of it and working towards it their entire life. Don't wait to find out which side you're on... Go, figure it out while you spend your days enjoying what has to be among the only true freedoms left on the planet...

But also admit upfront that there is a LOT you don't know and haven't calculated in; and that's just fine as long as you're willing to make it work, change the spreadsheets as you move along and figure out how to adapt as problems/hurdles/costs arise.

Like you, we tried to buy a as "new as possible" boat so that the maintenance costs would be low. We not only planed to live frugally, but had perfected it before leaving (living in a van for 7 years will do that)...
Getting the boat ready to be self-sustaining (so that we could then live affordably) cost far more than we had calculated and annual upkeep/repairs are impossible...except i have the bills to prove it.
We are in fact able to live frugally, but the annual boat expenses have been a huge surprise (even on top of what we'd expected from reading along here for years).



Im not going to give advice on the details of finances and which boat and taking sailing lessons because I know I wasn't willing to listen to anyone (which is why we never bothered to ask on here).

In fact, even today, as I watch the world crumble and realize that whatever investments we have/had back home could all likely go away and leave leave us with nothing, or at least having to start over from scratch - not once has the thought process given us regret or made us think we should have played it all "safer".

Quite the contrary. Even if we were back home we'd still be watching our investments at risk, still be stressing out (but doing it quarantined in a house rather that floating off a secluded beach) and frankly... may well not have lived long enough to even see these days, much less know the type of happiness we've come to know and understand along the way.


The only one that can ruin your dreams is you.
So don't let that happen.
Go. Chase the Dream. Taste the Freedom that few will ever know...

But all of that also doesn't mean you have to go today... Certainly nothing wrong with having even more foundation in place, with taking steps and making sure you aren't stressed out every step of the way. I fully agree you should take the leap, but you have to decide the best timing of that... make the best plan you can and be willing to adjust along the way.
Its one hell of a ride!

Also... if we can help in any way don't hesitate to ask!!
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Old 30-03-2020, 06:35   #63
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Dear Steve.
In my experience this boat is NOT what you need. You need either to reduce your sailing plans or get an ocean boat. Foe such a plan old Bavaria's before 2001 such as the 42 CC or the 44 CC are available around that price. Look at the rigging as it might need to be replaced and that is not cheap.

You need to understand that an Ocean capable boat is essential to adventure offshore. CC are stronger than aft cockpits. Ballpark figure you need minimum a 12 ton displacement in order to get though a storm offshore. With 37 you will feel like cork floating in hell.

The 37 is ia nice boat for the med sea providing you have good weather forecast info (such as Grib files) via SSB radio. Whether routing is essential offshore to avoid the worst.
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Old 30-03-2020, 07:02   #64
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macblaze View Post
Sine you like sailing videos, check out Sailing Bacchus Home (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXplY5fv_1RLG0nxN-qQEqw). They are sailing a Bene 36 to Australia. Particularly the videos before and after their trip to the Canaries. I think you will find you are investing a bit more into the Bavaria than you anticipate.

And I agree with Mike's comments about the boat being beaten up. You yourself are going to try to get the current owners to invest to bring it into "sail away" conditions and I think you will find you will have to do the same but probably a lot more than the $8500 it needs now.

Just my 2 cents
I bought a 48 ft boat cheap that was is rough condition. It surveyed OK for structural integrity but none of the systems were really functional. Estimates to get her into "sailaway" condition ranged from US $100-150K. I paid $70K for her with a Brand new Engine and Transmission installed.I figured I'd have about $220K in her total. Sounded ok to me. $353K later she is eminently seaworthy but we have barely touched the cosmetic flaws and she's probably worth less than 120K on the market. My Bad.
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Old 30-03-2020, 07:11   #65
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Pay cash. Have 20% of purchase price in a repair/maintenance account & go for it- I would never finance a depreciating asset- especially one that endures kinetic wear & tear. I own outright & live aboard - initial cost was $120k, I always have $24k on hand & have had to dip into it unexpectedly for things like canvas, compressors, pumps, etc. not that I’m an expert, but this approach has allowed me happy ownership & get a good nights sleep!
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Old 30-03-2020, 07:19   #66
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

I sailed from NY to Australia ina 37" Nan-Tai. Simular to a Tayana but buoilt I think for the charter business. The asking price when I went to the marina office was $70,000 and they accepted $40,000 and were happy to get it. Not being a vessel that was equiped for living aboard and ocean crossing, i invested another $90,000 it to make it a live aboard and make it safe enough to cross the oceans.

Think of the things you want and then think of the things you really need. Good dependable refrigeration, good battery bank (most charter boats are for day sailing and not equipped for crossing oceans), radar comes in handy as you can use the watchman when sleeping, also a water maker (again, I never seen a charter boat with one) as some of the islands you may visit you won't want to drink their water. Extra sails come in handy and charter boats don't come with storm sails. Wing generator or solar panels come in handy so you don't have to run your engine alot to charg batteries.
Put a few extra bucks asiide for cost of going through Panama Canal. I sailed from Panama to Am Samoa (Pago Pago) about 6800 miles in 74 days with a cost of $37 in fuel as I only used it to exit Panama and enter Am Samoa. It was also my dream and I never regretted it. Stayed in New Zealand for quite a while and then to Australia. Sold my yacht in Australia but took a beating as it was previously valued at $135.000 US$ and after paying for dock fees and storage on the hard awaiting it's being sold wound up getting $50,000 AU$. Not much but it was costing me to keep it there.
Think hard about buying a boat that is already equipped for living aboard and ocean crossing where the equipment is not to old and well taken care of. Enjoy your trip as all the islands are beautiful and most of the people you meet cruising are both helpful and friendly. Stay safe, stay dry.
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Old 30-03-2020, 07:50   #67
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Ok But a Tayana is not a Bavaria. Even old Again look at displacement figures and keel configuration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icemate View Post
I sailed from NY to Australia ina 37" Nan-Tai. Simular to a Tayana but buoilt I think for the charter business. The asking price when I went to the marina office was $70,000 and they accepted $40,000 and were happy to get it. Not being a vessel that was equiped for living aboard and ocean crossing, i invested another $90,000 it to make it a live aboard and make it safe enough to cross the oceans.

Think of the things you want and then think of the things you really need. Good dependable refrigeration, good battery bank (most charter boats are for day sailing and not equipped for crossing oceans), radar comes in handy as you can use the watchman when sleeping, also a water maker (again, I never seen a charter boat with one) as some of the islands you may visit you won't want to drink their water. Extra sails come in handy and charter boats don't come with storm sails. Wing generator or solar panels come in handy so you don't have to run your engine alot to charg batteries.
Put a few extra bucks asiide for cost of going through Panama Canal. I sailed from Panama to Am Samoa (Pago Pago) about 6800 miles in 74 days with a cost of $37 in fuel as I only used it to exit Panama and enter Am Samoa. It was also my dream and I never regretted it. Stayed in New Zealand for quite a while and then to Australia. Sold my yacht in Australia but took a beating as it was previously valued at $135.000 US$ and after paying for dock fees and storage on the hard awaiting it's being sold wound up getting $50,000 AU$. Not much but it was costing me to keep it there.
Think hard about buying a boat that is already equipped for living aboard and ocean crossing where the equipment is not to old and well taken care of. Enjoy your trip as all the islands are beautiful and most of the people you meet cruising are both helpful and friendly. Stay safe, stay dry.
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Old 30-03-2020, 08:05   #68
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Great Dream!

Wait 2-3 months to buy - prices are going to tank, and the initial cost of your project will drop.

Then, by the time you’ve gotten the boat ready, and done a bit of day sailing to become familiar, the worst should be past, and inter country cruising resumed.
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Old 30-03-2020, 08:13   #69
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

I'm impressed by your ability to crunch numbers but your assumptions don't seem to account for the following two realities that I'm sure my fellow boat owners and cruisers are well familiar with-

1. Even if you depart with a fully prepped boat with all new stuff, you will have many, many unexpected maintenance and repair expenses.

It's really hard to predict or budget for. Even if you triple your anticipated budget you could find yourself going way over.

So how do we handle that? Some choices-
- if the boat continues to float, don't fix it
- DIY to the max (need lots of tools, know how, and time, which interferes with cruising timelines)
- Cash out investments or get a job and do what it takes to keep your boat the way you want it along the way
- Work as you go so you have a source of income for living and boat expenses

2. Expect the unexpected, it WILL happen

Like what?
- a medical emergency
- an injury (more common with inexperienced boaters)
- heavy weather damage (also more common with inexperienced boaters)
- dragging anchor lands you on the rocks or beach (also more common with inexperienced boaters)
- hurricane damage
- a boating "accident" (watch movie "All is Lost" with Robert Redford, bugs me that he never wears a PFD but it's a sobering wake up call to what could happen offshore even with an experienced boater and a well outfitted boat)
- your partner gets fed up with the discomfort and inconvenience and leaves you single handing, which can be a big problem for an inexperienced boater

And there's probably more, but you get the point. This is hard to budget for and plan ahead financially. When you're young it's common to have a sense of immortality and belief that "it won't happen to me," and as a numbers guy you have to try very hard to strip the numbers away and look through the lens of real life.

For a reality check I suggest posting a question to experienced cruisers in this forum, something like "What what's the biggest unexpected event that interfered with your cruising plans?" and assume that any one of them could happen to you.

I'd prefer that you get your boat and cruise locally to get lots of real world experience before investing the time, money and taking on the real world risks of crossing oceans.
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Old 30-03-2020, 08:18   #70
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Lots of good advice in the answers to your questions (I loved the 'go broke before you're 30 ;-).

I am a coastal cruiser in the Pacific northwest, and my ambitions are far more limited than your own. One lesson I've learned in 10 years with my gaff-cutter is that catastrophe is unpredictable, but likely over time, and often self-inflicted. They grow less likely with experience (you get better at avoiding them, and better at managing them).

You need to face up to the possibility of having to buy-your-boat-multiple-times. Lose your engine, or blow out your sails, or drop your rudder, and you have NO CHOICE but to pay the cost of repair, irrespective of the cost. And boats depreciate, but the cost of repairing them does not. If you can't do this, then your only option is to abandon your boat.

Find out the cost of a dismasting or replacing all your sails, or replacing your engine, and include in your plan what you would do in the event.

As for experience... you can't learn enough in a lifetime to fill in all the boxes in the matrix of a mariner. It takes years to achieve justified confidence in your abilities. This isn't a reason not to start, but you and anyone daring/foolish enough to accompany a rookie on an extended blue water cruise must be realistic about the possibilities, and totally committed to building those same skill sets.

All the best. Your dream may be impractical, but "a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?"
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Old 30-03-2020, 08:26   #71
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV__Grace View Post
I'm impressed by your ability to crunch numbers but your assumptions don't seem to account for the following two realities that I'm sure my fellow boat owners and cruisers are well familiar with-



1. Even if you depart with a fully prepped boat with all new stuff, you will have many, many unexpected maintenance and repair expenses.



It's really hard to predict or budget for. Even if you triple your anticipated budget you could find yourself going way over.



So how do we handle that? Some choices-

- if the boat continues to float, don't fix it

- DIY to the max (need lots of tools, know how, and time, which interferes with cruising timelines)

- Cash out investments or get a job and do what it takes to keep your boat the way you want it along the way

- Work as you go so you have a source of income for living and boat expenses



2. Expect the unexpected, it WILL happen



Like what?

- a medical emergency

- an injury (more common with inexperienced boaters)

- heavy weather damage (also more common with inexperienced boaters)

- dragging anchor lands you on the rocks or beach (also more common with inexperienced boaters)

- hurricane damage

- a boating "accident" (watch movie "All is Lost" with Robert Redford, bugs me that he never wears a PFD but it's a sobering wake up call to what could happen offshore even with an experienced boater and a well outfitted boat)

- your partner gets fed up with the discomfort and inconvenience and leaves you single handing, which can be a big problem for an inexperienced boater



And there's probably more, but you get the point. This is hard to budget for and plan ahead financially. When you're young it's common to have a sense of immortality and belief that "it won't happen to me," and as a numbers guy you have to try very hard to strip the numbers away and look through the lens of real life.



For a reality check I suggest posting a question to experienced cruisers in this forum, something like "What what's the biggest unexpected event that interfered with your cruising plans?" and assume that any one of them could happen to you.



I'd prefer that you get your boat and cruise locally to get lots of real world experience before investing the time, money and taking on the real world risks of crossing oceans.


I always have a bit of a problem with those who quickly say “just go for it, don’t hear the naysayers, follow your dream”. I understand, however, we all did that to some extent. But is such advise really wise? Then I read posts like yours with such amazing dose of reality and experience that is comforting. Yes, follow your dream eventually, but learn, learn and learn first. Thanks for your post!
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Old 30-03-2020, 08:40   #72
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Lots of good advice in this thread, but few have focused on the key issue - you really don't know how to sail yet, and taking a course won't get you there. True, some folks have learned to sail en route to Mexico/the Caribbean/wherever ... but those are the ones who have lived to tell the tale. Many have not, and they're not around to tell you about it.

Skip Allan's a guy I met @ the SORC, nearly 50 years ago. He's sailed over more salt water than I've wrung out of my socks (he's raced the SORC, the Miami-Montego Bay, the Admiral's Cup). Read his story here: <http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/78146-skip-allans-report/>. Then think if you are REALLY ready to go to sea.

Allan was deeply experienced and still ran into trouble. Think of what might happen to you, were you to find yourself in a similar(ish) predicament with your present skill level. Then do what you have to do to build the skills before spending the bucks on a boat and taking an inexperienced partner to sea where what you know is keeping her alive.

Sobering, but a friend's signature is on point: the ocean doesn't care if you're an expert.
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Old 30-03-2020, 08:55   #73
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

I'm generally in the "go sooner, rather than later" camp, but I don't believe in being foolish about this. Cruising is a complex lifestyle choice. There are many factors which make it successful. It's definitely not for everyone.

This is why I'm concerned about the OP's approach. It's wonderful to be inspired by a dream. It's how this life starts, but that's not nearly enough. There are ways to get actual experience; to actually learn some of the bigger skills needed to succeed.

To me, the financial side is important, but secondary. I think people beyond a minimal modest means can always figure out the money side. But only IF people understand how to make this life work.

So I guess I'm in the "walk before you run" camp.
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Old 30-03-2020, 09:01   #74
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

If you tell the lender what you are going to do, you probably Won't get a loan.
Remember, you have to sleep out there and your partner will have to pilot the boat.
Sometimes it takes years to sell a sailboat.
See how you & partner React to a Storm with high winds and waves ?
If you panic ? Or remain calm.
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Old 30-03-2020, 09:03   #75
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Hi Steve , all that you mention is very romantic, you can do your financial schedule , but above all DO NOT BUY a bavaria from 2015 , the good ones are the oldest bavarias, on the other hand you can find cheapest steel boats in leboncoin.com , french site or better option than bavaria , dufour jeaneau , beneteau. good luck mate
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