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Old 24-03-2020, 08:47   #16
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

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Find a boat you can buy for cash. Spend a couple years (I know, I know, but you’re young!) working on it and sailing her. After that, you’ll have real world answers to most of your questions.
No one ever wants to hear that advice, but it is sound.

It's a lot better to make important financial decisions with the most knowledge and experience you can have.
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Old 24-03-2020, 09:09   #17
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

The biggest help you can do yourself is buy ALREADY beat and neglected..My neighbors bought a Hatteras 40 which was my former marina managers boat, valued around 60k when they had it but a decade later was mossy and had a broken window but basically sound, for 2K.. They could make this trip and sell the refurbished boat and break even but with a year of redoing the details to recover its market value. But they'll simply sit on it and clean it up unil someone offers them 15-25K or so and thats the real hope. Ive seen a Hans 37 go for 25k and a grand banks 40 for 10K under a mechanics lein. Every marina has boats with slip fees in arrears and every repair facility ends up with boats whos repairs exceed the value of the boat and end up sold for leins. But it takes years to find such deals and knowing every boat in the area..often sold by heirs of an old sailor who had as you say ruined dreams..Buyers will often go to Southern Ca or the tropics and look for derelict purchases from cruisers who went, "downhill" both metaphorically and literally and a neglected classic can be recovered from ruin..

Good luck! (Im a scratch builder, roberts 37..Heavy cruiser) and spent 3 years finding my engine. Not one deal available in my Portland area over this 3 years but found three good options in Seattle in one day. And got a low time Perkins 4-108 for 2000..And Ive watched marinas and buying/selling firsthand and up close, refurbishing and crusing..The only shortcut is the bargain hunting as Ive seen it happen.
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Old 24-03-2020, 09:09   #18
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

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Originally Posted by Sailshabby View Post
Find a boat you can buy for cash. Spend a couple years (I know, I know, but you’re young!) working on it and sailing her. After that, you’ll have real world answers to most of your questions.
+1

As I asked, how do you even know you like to cruise, let alone your partner? A three week charter tells you almost nothing about this life. Watching youtubers is not much better.

They way you answer this question is to go cruising for a while. You say you are in Ontario, so you are close to excellent cruising grounds. Go buy an inexpensive, yet fully functional cruising boat, an go cruising.

At the same time, live the frugal life outline in your plan. Move into a small space comparable to your boat. Downsize your stuff, and live on as little as possible (your budget is $20k).

And save a whack of money.

I don't mean to dissuade you in any way. It is certainly possible to go cruising on your budget and with your resources. But it's not necessarily easy, and it's not always the romantic life often depicted on the youtubes. It's definitely not for everyone, which is why I strongly suggest you learn if it is for you (and your partner).
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Old 24-03-2020, 09:16   #19
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

https://www.pgyc.org/classified/bavaria_38.pdf

price negotiable, probably cheaper and 2/3 of your trip already sailed as she is in the Phillipines, Austrian owner, purchased from Japanese representative of Bavaria, the owner worked 30 years in Japan as technical translator. Had an accident, titanium knee now and 2 weeks ago slipped in marina and same leg broken again, that seems a big danger now as he is about 80 years young.

I doubt anyone will sell you that yacht on credit. Philippines is a perfect sailing ground, distances are not that far, daytime trips are good for most distances, contrary to equal beautiful Indonesia, flights are cheap too, cost of living very low as long as you do not insist on US-beef. Pay out the yacht, you are free of worries.

I know the yacht, I know the owner, both are ok, but that does not help you bcs you do not know me ;-) Freiheit (Freedom) sailed from Japan to China then Philippines, in 2012 Indonesian Rallie, but only the Northern part, English is well understood in the Philippines, but not in Indonesia, the Islands quite similar though. Clear preference for RP. Be careful, Mediterranean Sea is quite expensive and cold in Winter
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Old 24-03-2020, 09:35   #20
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Hi Steve. You certainly have enough money to go cruising, but on the budget you have you need to think differently about the type of boat and adopting a simpler approach. There's a ton of very well built and proven offshore cruising yachts for sale in the $25 to 30k range, good condition, ready to go, without all the inherent and costly problems associated with buying into the mass produced ex charter boat market. Those Bavaria's and their ilk are fantastic and luxurious charter boats, but have a lot of expensive to replace kit on board that is probably tired (why are they selling it now!) And we're not necessarily built for longevity. Go in at a simpler level, look for a robust, well built 1970s or early 80s fibreglass boat that has done all its depreciation and will arrive in Australia worth as much or more than you paid for it. All your budgets will be so much more sustainable if theres no finance costs, MUCH lower insurance, less stress in worries about unnecessary kit breaking. Keep it simple, cheap and go do the important thing which is go cruising! Good luck, have fun don't hesitate to ask. Fair winds
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Old 24-03-2020, 09:36   #21
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

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I have spent the last few weeks tirelessly looking at boats and learning as much as I can about what it takes to cross oceans. I have formulated the below plan that I would like you all to critique so that I can build a better plan and help others learn as well.

About Me:
28-year old desk jockey who writes financial reports for work and even now during my free time... a new low. I will be traveling with my partner of 5 years. She has no experience and I have 3 weeks of experience sailing 40+ foot Yachts. I intend to get ASA 101-104 certifications before buying. I am the type of person to do things for the story and I would like to cross sailing across oceans off my bucket list.

Destinations & timeframe:
My current plan is to take 2.5-years to sail from the Mediterranean to Australia. I will start with 6 months in the Mediterranean, 8 months in the Caribbean, and the remaining 16 months crossing the pacific into french Polynesia, new Zealand and up the coast of Australia.

Financial situation:
I have saved up $70K USD and have a guaranteed passive income of $11K per year. So over the 2.5 years, I will have a total of $97.5K available to spend.

Boat:
I am looking to purchase a 2015 Bavaria 37 Cruiser (pictures attached) from a charter company in Croatia. The boat is listed for $85K USD and I will be putting down 20% ($17K) and financing the rest. I am assuming that by paying the full asking price I can get them to do $8500 in repairs to bring it up to sail away condition. This would be the equivalent of getting a 10% discount (Fair assumption yes/no?). I would also ask for them to cover closing costs. After the down payment, I will have $53K of savings remaining and $11K a year of income to fund my adventures ($80.5K over 2.5 years).

Financing:
Using a 15-year term for the $68K loan at 7% would make the payments $607 per month, $7284 per year or $18,210 over 2.5 years.

Operating costs:
There is a video on the YouTube video by Sailing Yacht Florence called “How much does it REALLY cost to sail around the world?” and they recorded an average expenditure of $17K per year. The $17K they spent included everything from food to maintenance costs. We plan to be just as frugal as they are but things never go as planned on a sailboat so I will build in an extra $3K of expenses. My total operating costs per year will be an estimated $20K or $50K over the 2.5 years.

Cashflow:
Based on the above calculations and assumptions I should expect an initial payment of $17K, and annual cash outflows of $27K to cover operating costs and the loan repayment.

Depreciation:
I will sell the boat for an assumed 15% loss in Australia where these types of boats fetch a premium compared to the eastern Mediterranean. I believe this is a fair estimate because the same make and model averages a 5% decrease in value every year according to YachtWorld listings. This level of depreciation will leave me with a sale price of $72K for the boat and a remaining loan of $61K, the net of which would leave me with $10K cash in pocket.

Conclusion:
If my assumptions hold true, I will be looking at spending $50K in operating expenses + $17K downpayment + $18K loan repayment - $10K reclaimed at sale = $75K USD for 2.5 years or $30K per year.

Starting with $97.5K cash less $75K for 2.5 years of expenses will leave me with $22.5K for unforeseen costs and surprises and hopefully enough for a flight home from Australia.

Please let me know where you see holes in my plan and comment with any suggestions you have. All feedback is appreciated!
Nobody pays full price for a used sail boat (even one this new). Offer 20% less and do the upgrades yourself (so you'll know that no corners have been cut - which is exactly what the charter company will do). Be aware that many insurance companies now require at least three sailors on board to do ocean crossings (for 24/7 watch duties) The two hours on, two hours off deal that many couples use would be a buzz kill in my book as nobody gets enough sleep. It's supposed to be fun not hell.

On a final note, get your girlfriend out on a boat for a few days and see if she even likes sailing. Fanciful dreams often bear no resemblance to reality.
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Old 24-03-2020, 09:56   #22
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Steve, it isn't about ruin my dream, it's about a realistic dream. So you love sailing, we all do. So you want to see some of the world and explore some other areas, we all do. You are not going to be sailing a spread sheet, where numbers can be manipulated, this is a physical vessel that will have things deteriorate without prior knowledge. How are you with your own engine maintenance and repairs? Is english your only language? Please allow me to tell you a short story. Mine. We bought our Pedrick Cheoy Lee Offshore in a quick sale. It came from Hawaaii with minimal offshore gear, but was well found. We paid $130K USD and an additional $70K cdn for Spectra sails, each one light enough for my wife to pick up, a hydraulic steering ram and controls, a 200amp alternator (with double belts), a 2500 watt inverter, a Monitor self steering vane, a repack on the liferaft, inner forestay, 2 self tailing winches and an EPIRB. I installed all the equipment we bought and did all the electrical work myself. I was working and it took me 2 years to complete. We sailed 17,000 miles without a problem, other than a head gasket in Mexico, and we were never the boat in harbour waiting for parts. After 14 years we sold the boat for $130K cdn. Others have a story also, but calling for help every time you need assistance will add more than you have planned for. I hope you see yourself in the posts others have added and wish your dreams come true.
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Old 24-03-2020, 10:01   #23
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

If you share your plan and lack of experience with whoever is financing the boat, I don't expect they will go for it. If they do, they will insist on insurance. If you share your plan and lack of experience with the insurance company they're not going to cover you.


As has been said earlier, lower your expectations. By a boat cash and explore the Med for a few years. It's a wonderful place to explore and shouldn't drain you the way sailing half way around the world would.


By all means keep the dream - but work up to it.
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Old 24-03-2020, 10:05   #24
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Dear Steve,

I'm also in Ontario near Kingston and am an ex marine professional.
You've received a number of good replies and 90% of what has been said is about true or potentially so.
You likely really need both experience and money to do what you'd like and with the experience may come the realization that for one or both of you of you the rewards are much smaller than the costs!
Possibly either spend a couple of years earning and getting at least some experience on the lakes in ON. or make yourselves attractive and useful as crew ASAP and do some serious sailing as crew initially then go from there?
Good luck,
Niall.
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Old 24-03-2020, 10:14   #25
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

I think that your dreams have now been ruined !!! You should still do something though. When our kid was young he used to watch a US TV show ( when we had access to TV, not often ) "Magic school bus", the teacher a Miss somebody or other used to tell the kids to "make mistakes and get messy". Good advice.
I've made a ton of them and have no regrets.
Good luck with a dream that does not need financing, that's my advice. Pay cash. Never owe money to anyone.
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Old 24-03-2020, 10:23   #26
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

Steve,

BEfore spending money etc. Find out if you actually like sailing (and your GF also) Since you'll probably be double-handing - is she ready and able to handle the boat by herself in a squall/storm etc? You'll be sleeping - are you ready?

If the corona lets up - get a couple of berths on a boat crossing the Atlantic on the ARC (find one where you will only be 4 people including yourselves) Then you'll be standing watch alone.

See if you like it and if it feels like something you want to do for a couple of years

Also - are you a !"Mr. fixit?" you better be - there is noone out there to fix things for you. you will need to be able to everything yourself
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Old 24-03-2020, 10:24   #27
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

While I like Rucksta's attitude. There are always outliers. Years ago I would have never thought a young couple could take off with little to no experience in a boat, make a couple videos, wreck a boat, then have strangers help finance a new boat...and despite not having a job get financing for the remaining cost of the boat. But, that's the crazy world we live in.

Back to some of your specific questions....
Purchase costs - The seller is selling the boat. They are not going to fork out $8500 to repair the boat. They may have taken that amount into consideration in the asking price, or they may reduce the asking price somewhat if a survey shows those repairs are necessary. If you can get 10% off...good for you....and the current situation may indeed provide the seller to sell at discount. But, don't count on it. Same with closing costs....you'll suck them up as well as a brokerage fee, taxes, and documentation/registration fees that apply. Oh...by the way...assuming you will have a survey done...you will pay for that also.

Depreciation - Depreciation and resell values vary wildly. A charter vessel that is not sailed hard and is well maintained does not depreciate as quickly as a privately owned vessel that is sailed hard for days on end in the ocean. You are correct that the resale value could be higher in Australia, but as others mentioned your not taking into account import taxes and other costs.

Outfitting costs - You didn't mention this, but you will incur expense in getting the boat ready to sail across the ocean. The listing states safety equipment, but doesn't specify what that equipment is. You will have additional expenses in out-fitting more electronics (radar, ais, etc.), safety equipment (life raft, med kit, epirb, etc), and power generation (e.g. solar, wind, etc.) The extent to how you outfit your boat is a personal decision. In the Med you may be hours away from rescue, in the Pacific you are days away if they find you. There will likely be additional expense...such as new chain. It states you have about 50 meters of chain. Personally, I wouldn't want less than 60 meters for sailing around the Pacific; 80 is even better. Also throw in another anchor.

IMHO-charter boats do not make very good cruising boats. Charter boats are designed to accommodate couples who want to hang out on a hook or dock and party for a few days at a time. You have a lot of 'bed' space, but that doesn't translate into 'sea-berths.' It will translate into storage space.

I don't write this to suppress your dreams, but to provide some additional perspective and things to consider as others here have done. There are couples who have tossed off the lines and made a go of it. There are also a lot of boats for sale for pennies on the dollar in Mexico, Caribbean, Florida, Hong Kong, etc. by folks who tossed off the lines, made one passage...then quit. My advice would be...if you really like your partner...get a boat...spend a lot of time together on the boat to learn about the boat and each other.

Some people say that "people don't change." The only people who say that have never been on a small boat in the middle of an ocean for weeks.
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Old 24-03-2020, 11:12   #28
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

That Bavaria 37 is way too pretty for your plans.

You should buy an older, full keeled boat. Preferably one that has already been all redone and turnkey. There are lots of great boats out there at great prices.

Spend as little as possible on the boat. If you have to borrow...you can't afford it. Keep it simple. Solid hull, good rig and sails.

This guy is an excellent example of doing it right (IMHO)... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTm...t=da&flow=grid

...he sails a gaff rigged boat, solo, without even an engine.

Best of luck to you. And don't forget to report back here to let us know how it goes!!!!
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Old 24-03-2020, 11:21   #29
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

The boat looks pretty and is probably well suited to charter and marina life. But offshore would not be any fun nor comfortable. Look on deck, narrow to non existent side decks. In mast furling which ... aside from no roach, well it does not reef well, and can be a problem. People swear by it, or at it. Simple works offshore. Simple slab reefing, it always works and the reefed sail works well.

Look below, wide and spacious. a severe lack of handholds. crossing an ocean the boat will be moving and rarely flat.
You have three cabins with hanging lockers, nice for three couples for a week but no stowage for sailing gear. This is a charter boat, meant to house two couples for a week.

There is no cruising gear on this boat.

My advice, which you can listen to or ignore would be to look for a good cruising boat built in the 80's or 90's that is in good shape that you can buy for 50K or less. by the time you get to Gib you will know something about sailing, you can outfit there, head down to the Canaries around OCT, then across in January. I would also suggest getting a vane in Gib, as you will find it a Godsend crossing an ocean.

Good luck,

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Old 24-03-2020, 11:59   #30
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Re: Ruin My Dreams Please

There are some unbelievable deals out there right now. But, you have to have some patience and be willing to ask around and look. There is a sailboat, 38 feet, if I remember correctly, for sale down here, for $3000. A sailing friend and I were looking at it, (he's been onboard) and it's simply a case of someone who is sick and tired of it and wants out. It has a brand new motor, but needs some woodwork inside.

If I was 18, I'd be all over it.
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