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Old 23-03-2020, 13:56   #16
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Re: Propane fittings

There should be a bleed screw on the bottle being filled. Or vent to push down. Basically you need to bleed until you get steady white vapour. Then close down. And you will be about 80%. But don’t trust my word too much. I’m just a random internet dude. If you blow up, it’s on you. ��

And hijack the thread all you want. I was the op
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Old 23-03-2020, 14:10   #17
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Re: Propane fittings

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Originally Posted by CassidyNZ View Post
Maybe a thread hijack but since the OP now has his solution it probably isnít so . . .

Iíve tried transferring LPG from a large (27kg) tank to my smaller (7kg) tanks and have had limited success. I have connected the two together with a hose, inverted the full bottle to run liquid across, not gas, have tried cooling the empty bottle by standing it in iced water, still only get maybe a third of the capacity in the empty bottle.

Some posts here appear to say itís really easy so is there a trick that I donít know of? Apparently. Care to share it? That would be appreciated as I have two very good aluminium tanks that local suppliers in NZ refuse to fill because of some registry technicality.
This process, which I call a "Redneck Refill", is slow. So set them up somewhere safe and isolated and leave then for awhile (at least 30 minutes).

Also, since propane is not being pumped under pressure like a normal refill, the refill will not be complete. To exacerbate the problem, the pressure reduces as gas volume in the donor tank drops. The end result is a less than full tank, but it sure beats an empty one! Bleeding as suggested above helps.

In your connection, is there anything other than couplings and hose? The precesence of a builtin regulator, as exists in some tank fittings, will slow the process.

Be super cautious during this process. Make sure there are no potential sources of ignition anywhere near by (20 meters?)...like a friend cruising up in their outboard driven dinghy!
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Old 27-03-2020, 01:40   #18
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Re: Propane fittings

After reading this thread I see why Delos went all electric. But, the cost to do so is an enormous expense.
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Old 27-03-2020, 02:15   #19
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Re: Propane fittings

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Originally Posted by rcolesny View Post
Related question: a copper tube passes from the propane locker to the range, some 25ft away. It is about 38 years old and shows some signs of green corrosion. I am thinking replacing it with a 1/4" ID yellow hose. This is thicker than the original copper tubing?
What is the proper way to go through the bulkhead? This should be airtight. Thanks for the advices.
- R Coles -
Wauquiez Pretorien # 139 - "Sojourn" Long Island Sound, NY
As long as the tank is in a properly vented gas locker and the hose is sealed as it exits the propane locker it does not matter what happens farther from that propane locker. As long as: 1) the hose is continuous - no joints of any kind until it reached the appliance and 2) the hose is rated to carry propane gas. The only concerns you should have is to protect the hose from chafe and high heat. Keep it away from the engine exhaust manifold. I vaguely remember some ABYC standards about routing the hose through an engine space.

Propane is heavier than air and the gas locker must have a drain at the bottom that is open to the outside air below it. This vent cannot be underwater.

I have two continuous hose runs in my boat, one to a propane heater and one to a stove. Been that way for 30 years now and no problems. Replaced the hose once because I was told it had a ten year useful life. I cut large sections of the old hose open and it looked fine so I question that ten year useful life. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 27-03-2020, 02:23   #20
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Re: Propane fittings

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Originally Posted by Tiemo View Post
After reading this thread I see why Delos went all electric. But, the cost to do so is an enormous expense.
Properly installed and maintained propane systems are very safe. The stories of propane disasters that I have read about involved improper installations and leaky gas lockers. There is a lot more cooking and heating energy in a light weight propane installation than the weighty alternative of a generator and/or a huge battery bank.
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Old 27-03-2020, 03:02   #21
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Re: Propane fittings

Thanks for all your comments. But should I replace the hose with copper tubing like original or with low pressure flexible hose (20ft) ?
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Old 27-03-2020, 08:56   #22
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Re: Propane fittings

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Originally Posted by rcolesny View Post
Thanks for all your comments. But should I replace the hose with copper tubing like original or with low pressure flexible hose (20ft) ?
I like and use hose but it is important to use the proper hose rated for propane and use mechanically crimped end fittings. Many propane suppliers make these hoses. They are double walled and very tough hoses that can take a lot of abuse.
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Old 27-03-2020, 10:16   #23
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Re: Propane fittings

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Originally Posted by stormalong View Post
I like and use hose but it is important to use the proper hose rated for propane and use mechanically crimped end fittings. Many propane suppliers make these hoses. They are double walled and very tough hoses that can take a lot of abuse.
You might like "like and use hose" but that is NOT the correct answer. USCG requirements incorporate ABYC A-01 by reference. I am sure your insurance company will insist. I know any surveyor doing either an insurance or purchase survey would insist.

This is NOT something to do in a way that you "like" and ignore the standards and rules.

The short answer is you can use hose ONLY long enough to allow the stove to swing on its gimbal. The rest of the fuel line from the propane locker through the boat's interior must be copper tubing as specified in the standard with proper end fittings. (NO push on hoses and hose clamps, for example!)

There is a LOT to a safe and efficient propane install. Read and follow the standards and don't shortcut them.
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Old 27-03-2020, 12:00   #24
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Re: Propane fittings

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Originally Posted by billknny View Post
You might like "like and use hose" but that is NOT the correct answer. USCG requirements incorporate ABYC A-01 by reference. I am sure your insurance company will insist. I know any surveyor doing either an insurance or purchase survey would insist.

This is NOT something to do in a way that you "like" and ignore the standards and rules.

The short answer is you can use hose ONLY long enough to allow the stove to swing on its gimbal. The rest of the fuel line from the propane locker through the boat's interior must be copper tubing as specified in the standard with proper end fittings. (NO push on hoses and hose clamps, for example!)

There is a LOT to a safe and efficient propane install. Read and follow the standards and don't shortcut them.
OK, I did not know that. IMHO it is the connections that have the greatest risk of failure (leaking) so I prefer single hose runs. Copper corrodes, synthetic rubber, fiber reinforced double walled hose is very tough. The use of hose has never been called out to me on a marine survey but I also have not had one in a long time so the rules may have changed.

"There is a LOT to a safe and efficient propane install. Read and follow the standards and don't shortcut them."

Since ABYC is so proprietary with their standards where can I read the full standard.?
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Old 27-03-2020, 12:24   #25
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Re: Propane fittings

ABYC doesn't require copper unless that is a very recent change. ABYC allows either type K or L copper or UL21 hose. The run must be continuous. Copper is only allowed to be used with flare fittings, no compression fittings.

Quote:
Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths of tubing, piping or hose from the regulating device, solenoid valve or leak detector to the appliance or to the flexible section at the appliance.
Steve D'Antonio, who is a CF member and quite active in ABYC has a pretty comprehensive article on propane installations on his website.
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Old 27-03-2020, 19:27   #26
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Re: Propane fittings

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Originally Posted by stormalong View Post
OK, I did not know that. IMHO it is the connections that have the greatest risk of failure (leaking) so I prefer single hose runs. Copper corrodes, synthetic rubber, fiber reinforced double walled hose is very tough. The use of hose has never been called out to me on a marine survey but I also have not had one in a long time so the rules may have changed.

"There is a LOT to a safe and efficient propane install. Read and follow the standards and don't shortcut them."

Since ABYC is so proprietary with their standards where can I read the full standard.?
If you really think copper has a shorter life span than rubber hose on boat, you are mistaken. As an example, I have a copper manifold on my raw water seachest that is 25 years old. Every hose connected to it has been replaced twice over, but the copper is as good as new, confirmed by thickness measurements.

ALL of the ABYC standards that are referenced in the USCG regulations are incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) and ARE publicly available. I know there was a long and tedious thread on here a while ago about that--with lots of bad information in it.

A link to 46 CFR 184.240(a) where the ABYC standard that is part of the USCG regulations for propane systems are freely available was right there in my last post, but here it is in simple text form...

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....A-01.1993.pdf

Certainly not all ABYC standards are part of USCG regs, but some are. Propane and fuel systems for example.

Another key point, is any rubber hose used in propane service to connect to the stove has a finite life span. In the EU it is required that they are labeled with an expiration date. The ones I see for sale in the USA are now clearly labeled with a manufacturing date. Normal practice it to replace them after no more than ten years.
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Old 27-03-2020, 19:43   #27
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Re: Propane fittings

That link isn't even remotely close to the current A1 standard from ABYC. That link leads to the version that is incorporated into law (and that allows hose for the entire run). ABYC has issued several revisions since then, the most recent in 2018, fully 25 years after the version linked. And none of those later versions are referenced in law. So, is that because ABYC updates just aren't worthwhile? Or because the law is just woefully behind?

Either way, the links you provided specifically allow the use of UL21 hose for the entire run.
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Old 27-03-2020, 21:26   #28
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Re: Propane fittings

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Originally Posted by billknny View Post
If you really think copper has a shorter life span than rubber hose on boat, you are mistaken. As an example, I have a copper manifold on my raw water seachest that is 25 years old. Every hose connected to it has been replaced twice over, but the copper is as good as new, confirmed by thickness measurements.

ALL of the ABYC standards that are referenced in the USCG regulations are incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) and ARE publicly available. I know there was a long and tedious thread on here a while ago about that--with lots of bad information in it.

A link to 46 CFR 184.240(a) where the ABYC standard that is part of the USCG regulations for propane systems are freely available was right there in my last post, but here it is in simple text form...

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....A-01.1993.pdf

Certainly not all ABYC standards are part of USCG regs, but some are. Propane and fuel systems for example.

Another key point, is any rubber hose used in propane service to connect to the stove has a finite life span. In the EU it is required that they are labeled with an expiration date. The ones I see for sale in the USA are now clearly labeled with a manufacturing date. Normal practice it to replace them after no more than ten years.
Your copper is probably cupro-nickel, a highly corrosion resistant alloy. Pure copper is highly reactive and corrodes quickly. Look at untinned wire or radio grounding straps in boats.

BTW your own reference about proper propane installation states that continuous hose is acceptable. Why don't you read your own reference.
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Old 27-03-2020, 22:11   #29
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Re: Propane fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormalong View Post
Your copper is probably cupro-nickel, a highly corrosion resistant alloy. Pure copper is highly reactive and corrodes quickly. Look at untinned wire or radio grounding straps in boats.

BTW your own reference about proper propane installation states that continuous hose is acceptable. Why don't you read your own reference.
The same ABYC standard says that metallic tubing:

Quote:
be corrosion resistant metallic tubing such as annealed copper tubing, standard type, Grade K or L, conforming to ASTM B88-75a,
so cupro-nickel would be allowed ("such as") but the ABYC considers pure copper tubing to be corrosion resistant (ASTM B-88 requires > 99.9% copper + silver).

[Edit]sorry, that quote is from A1-2000, A1-1993 says:

Quote:
One type is annealed copper tubing, standard type, Grade K or L, conforming to Specifications for Seamless Copper Water Tube (ASTM B88-75a) with a wall thickness of not less than 0.815mm (0.032")
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Old 16-07-2020, 11:03   #30
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Re: Propane fittings

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
The blue bottles can be filled in CuraÁao, Bonaire, French Islands. They call it camp gas. Easy to find in the Med.
Old thread, but worth responding to in case others come across it in searches. It is not possible to fill Campingaz in Curacao. It is also not possible to buy new Campingaz bottles or exchange them.

I spent half a day with a local driving around the various gas filling outlets. None of them could do it.
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