Please critique my plan: want to buy a boat to live on; I'm clueless about boats

[jim King]

I think you are spot on in wanting to charter first in an area like Croatia. The onboard skipper can give you some lessons in that first outing. Try both the monohull and catamaran to see what gives you the most space and stablity at sail. After a few charters and having experienced life on the water you will be more aware of what this lifestyle entails. Then, if you have found the experience rewarding and want to persue it, take ASA clasese from 101 to 104 and try a bareboat adventure on your own with your girlfried and maybe a few few friends with boating experience. As you continue to pick up experiece and sailing skills, start narrowing down the type of boat you ultimately want to buy and live in. It sounds like you have the funds to buy a cat in the 40 -45' range which will give you the space you and your girlfriend need.

[winjamerk]

Before anything else, contact a boat broker who can show you 6-20 quality sailboats currently for sale -IN THE WATER -. do not discuss experience, intentions, how much money you have but ask prices. Ask to be shown vessels between 30' [9.5m] and 56' [17.5m] that you and friends can go on and go inside to get a sense of space, accomodations, etc. Ask the broker to forward a list of potentials to see [year, make & model]. You can look up each type online ahead of time and also see comments from others about the seaworthiness for what you might intend to do. At this point, don't be concerned with instrumentation and other essentials as you'll likely upgrade anyway. This approach can help you see if you really want to spend time in that boat's space.

If any size is acceptable, or more comfortable than the others, then you want to compare various brands within 2-4 feet of that size to get a sense of variation on a theme on your narrowed size trip with the broker. You need to see if moving around, resting/reading/sleeping/cooking/pooping/showering on a floating object gets into your comfort zone. Spend good time in the cockpit.You have to decide how visible is the outside when below and discuss how these things are, or are not, very important. Discuss with broker with the ideal sized variations from your feelings, observations and desires which helps the broker narrow the search for your next excursion. If, at this point you are-close-to-ready for choosing a,b or c, then you're going online and inquiring what instrumentation has been found by cruisers to be most essential - [depth, location, radio, wind speed & direction, radar reflection as basics]. Additionals might be manual windlass to raise the anchor, windvane for steering aid and solar & wind options to keep batteries topped. Your dodger/bimini determination should be determined together with solar array requirements. Good Luck! There's lots more comfort stuff (electric vs manual) and water-makers, AIS, Internet, in-boom furling, dinghy & rum to consider after you decide floating. If still yes, before purchasing, do your plan with licensed captain, courses. enjoy

[goboatingnow]

One presumes you have all the visas necessary to remain resident in the EU.

Secondly going to the uk from the med is a considerable trip. It’s no jaunt.

I know a day trader in Greece who very successfully works from his 50 foot trawler yacht. It sounds like a mobo might be best for you.

I wouldn’t buy a boat to get away from people by the way. Winter time will force you into marinas and you’ll be in close proximity to many people.

Tread carefully , why not do a few charters to test the water.

[more]

If you Brit.

i suggest buy brand new cat 40 ft is enough for you and girlfriend . ideal for Croatia is Nautitech 44 open . hughe factory closed cockpit, big mastercabin. for winter nice big window and easy to heat saloon /kitchen. 1 quest cabin and 1 smart room like office workshop. but price is 500000€ after this owner version lagoon 42 lot space. and cheap option for new nautitech 40 and lagoon 40 10% more expensive FP 40 .

[more]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

One presumes you have all the visas necessary to remain resident in the EU.

Secondly going to the uk from the med is a considerable trip. It’s no jaunt.

I know a day trader in Greece who very successfully works from his 50 foot trawler yacht. It sounds like a mobo might be best for you.

I wouldn’t buy a boat to get away from people by the way. Winter time will force you into marinas and you’ll be in close proximity to many people.

Tread carefully , why not do a few charters to test the water.

look very rare(i think) beautiful snow on Greece island. why we don't have snow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9ZJN0Zj9CY&t=2s

[Dooglas]

Three observations from my early days as a serious sailor/boater. First - Everybody focuses first on "the" boat. You are right to first focus on the level of training and skills required of you. Second - The ability to maintain a boat and do both emergency and routine repairs is as important as being able to handle the boat. Third - Unless you have a good understanding of the costs associating with owning, mooring, and maintaining a boat; you are only kidding yourself by looking at the cost of buying a boat.

[Delaware]

Obtaining Insurance will be an issue. You have no resume of experience and will therefore be considered an extreme risk and uninsurable unless you operate with a captain. If your ok living in the marina for the first year or so then no problem. A week or two of training will not overcome this issue in a short amount of time. Make an offer on a boat pending insurance and survey.
You will be surprised at what info you get back.
Also, go back through this history on this forum for additional education on that which you seek. Many before you have asked the same questions.
Best of luck and be prepared. Your dream is possible but there will not be any simple answers.
Cheers

[Freeeeedom]

Thanks a lot for the thoughtful responses, everyone!

Originally Posted by mvweebles

give it a go. Worst that can happen is you work another few months to make up the loss.

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

I agree with this buy a boat and dock it in a city you want to live in and figure it out from there.

So there are two kinds of cost: time/effort and money. If I find out after day one that it's not for me, that's a lot of upfront investment of both resources for a lesson I could get much cheaper. I would much rather invest gradually while gaining more and more clarity.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

If you have that much money and flexibility, buy a starter boat for a half-million

Originally Posted by jim King

It sounds like you have the funds to buy a cat in the 40 -45' range which will give you the space you and your girlfriend need.

Interesting point. Even if this doesn't work out I think I'm reasonably comfortable wasting about 200k on this experiment, provided it's done gradually. Until now I thought the boat should cost no more than that but obviously I can resell it later at a (hopefully) small loss. I think I would still prefer the boat to be below 200k so that I don't fret over insurance or ruining the boat somehow out of ignorance. But that's probably just me being too paranoid so a 500k boat should be within my comfort zone after carefully thinking it over.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

You can get excellent global internet for around $10k/mo if there isn't a SBUX nearby.

Yikes, 10k/month sounds quite steep. Perhaps I exaggerated my wealth/income level. Hopefully I can get the regular data service if I stay close to the coast (which I need to do anyway if I'm planning to stand at anchor, I think).

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Training is even better if you include how to FIX a boat. That'd mean plumbing, electrics, engines, potentially ACs, canvas, etc...

Oh, I didn't realize I could get structured training on that. I thought I would have to wait for things to break and then learn by doing or trying to do. Since you referred to ASA, I don't suppose you know European schools that might provide such training?

Originally Posted by Dooglas

The ability to maintain a boat and do both emergency and routine repairs is as important as being able to handle the boat.

Same question to you, Dooglas: Do you know where I could learn that? And if something breaks that I cannot fix, are there options to get a professional to help (outside a marina or a mooring field)?

Originally Posted by ranger42c

because you will usually need to repair something or other EVERY DAY. Even if you seldom move the boat.

Living at anchor adds several layers of work to the idea.

Ohhh... that definitely sounds more frequent than what I assumed. That is... sobering. Can you please elaborate why standing at anchor adds complexity?

Originally Posted by more

https://anasail.com/en/trgovina/skip...ining-program/
https://www.crosailingacademy.com/pr...-professional/
for amater

https://diversoimpex.hr/en/boat-lead...ce-category-b/
https://seamasterclass.com.hr/proizv...-kategorije-b/
Te�aj voditelj brodice | YCZ

and 100-other companies and port authorities.
in real you don't need a course, simple learn everything pay exam and if you have lucky with question you know you pass
but really pro school is

https://ssm.hr/en/yacht-courses/
https://ssm.hr/en/vessels-portfolio/

Thanks a lot for the recommendations! That will come very helpful!

Originally Posted by Wideocean7

Croatia is a fabulous cruising ground but can be exposed to katabatic winds (strong) whereas places like Levkas are more known for the less experienced.

Thanks for the recommendation! I will look it up.

Originally Posted by skipmac

If in Europe google ASA Sailing schools. (...) If you like the 101 course move on to the next. I believe they have courses that are supposed to certify you for charters.

Originally Posted by Wideocean7

As for a qualification, in UK, Europe (and Aus/NZ for that matter), RYA qualifications are the ones to go for.

To be honest, I find the different certification systems quite confusing. So if I'm getting it right I could either find an ASA school in Europe and once I pass ASA104 obtain IPC; or I could do RYA Day Skipper (even in continental Europe) and then I think I would need an ICC based on that? Or (nobody mentioned it but from what I read elsewhere) I could do whatever national certification is available in the country of the sailing school and then turn that national certification into ICC? And that should allow me to sail/drive in the entire Mediterranean?

Originally Posted by jim King

The onboard skipper can give you some lessons in that first outing. (...) Then, if you have found the experience rewarding and want to persue it, take ASA clasese from 101 to 104 and try a bareboat adventure on your own with your girlfried and maybe a few few friends with boating experience.

I was actually thinking to charter with an instructor rather than an ordinary skipper, and to do a high-intensity training during the first charter. I don't think I would be very comfortable sharing a boat with a stranger so I would like to get this phase over ASAP and move on to chartering bareboat. I think only then will I have a decent feel for whether advantages outweigh the drawbacks of this lifestyle.

Originally Posted by winjamerk

Before anything else, contact a boat broker who can show you 6-20 quality sailboats currently for sale (...)

Interesting approach. I will have to mull it over but to be honest, I don't think visiting a boat at the dock will be representative. Before I do some training I wouldn't know what to look at.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

One presumes you have all the visas necessary to remain resident in the EU.

Originally Posted by more

If you Brit.

I'm an EU citizen.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Secondly going to the uk from the med is a considerable trip. It’s no jaunt.

Fair enough. That was just a random ignorant thought. I think I would be happy staying in the med as my main residence and using planes and airbnb for visiting other destinations.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I wouldn’t buy a boat to get away from people by the way. Winter time will force you into marinas and you’ll be in close proximity to many people.

Why is that? Is it true even in places like the coast of Egypt?

Originally Posted by hpeer

If I was in Europe and wanted to experience living on a boat I think I would look to make my next apartment a canal boat.

That way you get to the nub of the matter pretty quick, can I live in a small space?

Interesting. I actually had the idea to live in a houseboat (I think those are the same thing) and quickly discarded it and moved on to boats that are more mobile. The main drawback for me is that in a houseboat you are confined to quite developed areas, usually (I think) with strangers having access to the bank you are docked at. Thus it wouldn't give me a representative feel for the advantages vs disadvantages. On the other hand, there are some houseboats available on AirBnB so perhaps I should revisit that idea simply because of how easily it fits into my current lifestyle. Thanks!

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Or maybe give VanLife a try?

Originally Posted by Dave22q

It is all about space. Start by renting or buying a single wide trailer and living there for several months. limit your going out to a few hours a week. If you find this unacceptably cramped (I bet you will) forget it!!

I'm pretty sure I would hate both those arrangements but that doesn't say much since they offer less space than a boat I can afford (please correct me if I'm wrong!) and they don't offer the main advantage: getting away from the people. With road vehicles you are confined to a road and that means humans.

Originally Posted by Dave22q

Living aboard generally begins with a love of boating. Lacking that, keep renting ashore. You will be much happier.

That's a very good point that I hadn't considered, thanks. I admit the chances that my hatred of humanity () is as strong as your love of boating are very slim. Still, for now I think the small chance that it will massively improve my life quality is worth exploring.

Originally Posted by Dooglas

Unless you have a good understanding of the costs associating with owning, mooring, and maintaining a boat; you are only kidding yourself by looking at the cost of buying a boat.

Thanks for bringing this up! I skimmed through sailorboy1's posts and thought it looked very manageable but indeed I will have to do my homework and estimate what my costs in my particular situation are going to be.

[more]

Originally Posted by Delaware

Obtaining Insurance will be an issue. You have no resume of experience and will therefore be considered an extreme risk and uninsurable unless you operate with a captain.
Cheers

Not in Croatia, Greece .because Obtaining Insurance for boat not a sailor. Now imagine how we insure over 10000 yacht and captain is exchange every week with 0 experience. But insurance don't cover small damage usually 5-10% of a valid boat. new yacht for example lagoon 40 insurance is 2000-3000€ annual
0,5-3 % percent of valid boat.price depend on London marine insurance market or something. cheapest year be 2020 only 650€ next 2022 be very expensive because the accident in sues canal and marine cargo price. what my agent says is demand-supply with previous year losses on market

[more]

Originally Posted by Freeeeedom

Thanks a lot for the thoughtful responses, everyone!
Interesting point. Even if this doesn't work out I think I'm reasonably comfortable wasting about 200k on this experiment, provided it's done gradually. Until now I thought the boat should cost no more than that but obviously I can resell it later at a (hopefully) small loss. I think I would still prefer the boat to be below 200k so that I don't fret over insurance or ruining the boat somehow out of ignorance. But that's probably just me being too paranoid so a 500k boat should be within my comfort zone after carefully thinking it over.
.

For you EU citizen is stupid gain ASA certificate. pick one this is valid certificate in EU
https://mmpi.gov.hr/UserDocsImages/d...9%205-7_19.pdf

but because so easy and cheap every year lot people from EU gain Croatia licence and this is valid for rest of world. for amater and professional
Croatia have active 27 000 professional Merchant Marine Officer. Greece more i think 50 000 maybe more.

if you buy smart new boat you don't lose nothing first 10 year except inflation.

i buy new Bavaria 36 2000 y 50 500 DEM this is around 25000€
i sell this boat 2010 for 51000€

[barnakiel]

My way : get a boat, try what it is like. Move on, if you do not like.


GREAT plans and planning are not that necessary really. Do rather than think.



b.

[mvweebles]

Reality check. Do charter and see if you like being on a boat. Doesn't have to be a sailboat - whatever it takes to get you on the water.

The advice you'll get in forums like this is start small, spend years honing your sailing skills. It's one way of doing it. And it does take a while to become a good sailor. But there are many, many other seamanship skills besides trimming, rigging, and shortening sails. Cruising requires power/sail agnostic skills including line handling, navigation, close quarter maneuvering, passage planning, provisioning, communications, anchoring, etc. And there are a host of basic mechanical skills you need even if you don't plan on doing your own work - energy management, engine checks, waste and water management, weather forecasting, predeparture checks, etc. These don't take years of experience. For many, they can be learned in a matter of months. And it's fun.

How do I know this? I was a full time delivery skipper for 5-years out of San Francisco. At least two dozen of my clients had never owned a boat and decided to buy a boat and head cruising. Now, I delivered offshore recreational trawlers such as Nordhavn (I stopped delivering sailboats early) which were in the $750k-$2m USD range. We'd spend a few weeks together, culminating in a passage from Southern California north 800-1000 nautical miles with just a stop or two to either Oregon or Washington state. The Pacific coast is a difficult coast, and northbound is the difficult direction. Yet we did fine, and every single one of those owners continued on to successful and enjoyable cruising careers and were fully insured.

My point is don't get distracted by the sailing. Figure out if you like the lifestyle. Then, if it grabs hold of you like it did me 35 years ago, figure out how quickly you want to transition. It will cost money to hire professionals, , but you can accelerate the learning curve to a few months, not years (though if sailing is your passion, that will take time - but operating the boat can be done while you get comfortable sailing). You won't be a salty captain in a few months, but you'll know enough to make careful passages safely and in comfort. Honestly, it's not about the sailing. It's about the lifestyle of living aboard and cruising .

Good luck.

Peter

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Freeeeedom

I have just realised that living on a boat might be the perfect lifestyle for me. I have enough cash to make the purchase today but I know nothing about boats, so first I have to test whether I would truly enjoy that and if so, what boat I should get. My first and most important question below is how to do that test. After that I write about my current lifestyle and my expectations of living aboard. Please roast that part as much as you can - whatever I'm missing, I would rather find out ASAP.

1. How to test that idea?

I was thinking the first step would be for me and my girlfriend to do some training to the point where we can sail (or drive a powerboat) alone, without hiring a skipper. Where should I do that training? What kind of training should that be? I was thinking of taking a couple weeks off to go to Croatia, charter a monohull for a week with an instructor and liveaboard, then charter a catamaran with an instructor.

Once we have enough training, we would charter boats for two weeks at a time, and try living on and working from them for that time. That would let us try different kinds of boats (sail or no sail? mono or cat?) and give us some idea what we want. Perhaps we should move somewhere (maybe Split, Croatia? I prefer to stay within the EU) for that entire period, so that we don't have to deal with air travel - I hate airplanes and all the other means of public transportation, since I hate being surrounded by people.

If that goes well, I would buy the boat at this stage and we would start gradually spending more and more time on it, while also equipping it with stuff that we think we need. Soon after that we would move in full-time.

2. Current lifestyle and expectations

I'm quite a misanthrope and often find other humans very annoying. I also grow tired of living in any place quite fast - every location I've tried living in appears to me to be an absolute sh..hole soon after I move in, and I've tried a lot of different kinds of places. Hence the appeal of living on a boat: If I want to go away from other humans, I could just find a spot to anchor where I'm alone and stay there a few days. If I want to resupply or socialise (I avoid humans most of the time but not all the time), I could pull into a marina. And when I inevitably start hating the country I'm in, I could just move to the next one along the coast.

So far I've been dealing with those idiosyncrasies of mine by frequently going abroad and living for a month or so in an AirBnB. That helps somewhat but is far from ideal: it still involves being around those pesky humans and it forces me to leave behind the comforts of my home that I have adjusted to my needs (my favourite coffee machine, my workspace). If I could instead move my home around, that would be much better. The additional appeal is that I would finally own my home and I could invest more into adjusting it. Until now, I've been only renting and never owned real estate - I cannot commit myself to any particular country or neighbourhood.

I definitely want to stay in or near Europe. We would probably cruise the Mediterranean although I have plenty of friends in London and on the Baltic Sea, so we might go up there in the summer. (Also, going to the North Sea and living in a Norwegian fjord sounds like a fairytale.)

My girlfriend and I are around 30 y.o. We both work remotely and need a reliable Internet connection and plenty of time to focus on work. The money I make is insanely good, even by the standards of the most expensive cities. Even if I lose my current job, there is a lot of demand for my skills. The income might drop to less than half of what it's now, but it would be still incredibly high.

When we start this adventure, I would pay people for all the necessary maintenance and servicing. Over time hopefully I could learn and pick up some of those responsibilities.

I ran this idea by my father who is an officer on cargo ships but without experience with small boats. He thinks I will hate it as soon as I try it. Some reasons he mentioned:
* Not enough space - he has a point since I tend to rent big places to live in. And until very recently I had been living alone, so sharing the small space with my girlfriend will be a challenge.
* Humidity, messiness
* Electricity - according to him, either I would have to stay in a marina, or run a generator which would be prohibitively expensive, or give up on some essential appliances and conveniences
* I will have to pull into a marina too often to get fresh water, throw away garbage and get rid of the wastewater. (But I think I can buy a watermaker for the fresh water and dump wastewater out in the sea?)
* Difficulty finding spots to anchor at
* Rapidly changing weather in the Mediterranean.

My own worry is that the boat will require so much work and maintenance that I won't have the time for my dayjob or to enjoy life. Although if that happens and the lifestyle appeals to me, I could probably get a part-time remote job (20 or so hours a week) and still make the ends meet. My hope is also that since I plan to sail/cruise only a bit, the workload will be lower than normal.

If living aboard gets somewhat tiring, I could take a month-long break and rent an AirBnB somewhere.

Summary

So, to reiterate, the most important question right now is: how do I test ASAP whether I want to pursue this lifestyle? Does the plan I outlined in the first section make sense? What training should I get and where to kick it off? The less important part is my expectations - please ruthlessly dispel anything that seems too naive. Big thanks in advance for any wisdom that you can share.

I'm afraid you are going to find it isn't utopia for someone without very deep pockets and no experience. JMHO

[beirutsailor]

Your idea of avoiding AirB&Bs by having a mobile home cannot work with a boat, unless you limit yourself to either the North/Baltic Seas (where the money is, but navigation requires skills you don't have), or the Med, which in some parts (Ionian Islands) is very easy. But you can't do both. It takes a month to go from North to South; and about the same to go East><West within either area.
Second advice, once you have done some training (sailing), go for charter with a flottilla. You only need 1/3 of the seamanship required to sail on your own, get confidence, etc. There is always a guide boat which takes decisions on weather, anchoring, etc. for you, and gets you out of any trouble. I hate these locusts descending on my favourite spots, but they are great for beginniners.

[Freeeeedom]

Originally Posted by more

if you buy smart new boat you don't lose nothing first 10 year except inflation.

Oh, that's amazing. I thought that a new boat would lose a lot of its value as soon as I buy it, as is the case with cars. That really expands the range of what I can afford a lot.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

But there are many, many other seamanship skills besides trimming, rigging, and shortening sails. Cruising requires power/sail agnostic skills including line handling, navigation, close quarter maneuvering, passage planning, provisioning, communications, anchoring, etc. And there are a host of basic mechanical skills you need even if you don't plan on doing your own work - energy management, engine checks, waste and water management, weather forecasting, predeparture checks, etc. These don't take years of experience. For many, they can be learned in a matter of months. And it's fun.

Now that you mention it, I have considerable experience doing multi-day backcountry solo hiking, including in deep Canadian Arctic. Perhaps some of the skills I honed there might translate to boating. And ages ago I also had a basic sailplane pilot's training. Although the biggest problem I anticipate will not be operating the boat - it will be dealing with malfunctions and repairs.

Originally Posted by beirutsailor

Your idea of avoiding AirB&Bs by having a mobile home cannot work with a boat, unless you limit yourself to either the North/Baltic Seas (where the money is, but navigation requires skills you don't have), or the Med, which in some parts (Ionian Islands) is very easy. But you can't do both.

I think I can comfortably live in the Med as my main residence, and if I want to visit distant places, hop on a plane and stay in an AirBnB. I'm not constrained by where the money is since I work fully remotely and I'm already location independent in that regard.