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Old 16-04-2019, 10:37   #31
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

[QUOTE=IslandHopper;2870864]T&T yacht attacked by Venezuelans on high seas - Trinidad Guardian




Something about this image doesn't look right. Judging by the grain of the wood these are pretty small bullet holes, not AK size, AR15 perhaps, or even smaller?. In a pretty tight grouping nevertheless. I can probably do the same grouping with an AR from 50-100 feet off a bench at a shooting range with iron sights. In a rather controled environment.

Of a rocking boat in heavy seas, there is no way in h@ll I can do this. Never tried to be honest, but my gut feeling there is no way this kind of shot pattern can be achieved based on the description of the event.

Anyways, something about this photo doesn't add up. My .02
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Old 16-04-2019, 10:55   #32
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

How about a lucky 4 round burst on full auto? The holes are spaced pretty evenly on the long axis.
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:02   #33
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

I though about it being a full auto burst, but I think from a reasonable distance in heavy seas that would still be all over the place. Full auto, spray and pray approach is not known for tight bullet groupings.
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:07   #34
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

[QUOTE=Alex_V;2871400]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
T&T yacht attacked by Venezuelans on high seas - Trinidad Guardian




Something about this image doesn't look right. Judging by the grain of the wood these are pretty small bullet holes, not AK size, AR15 perhaps, or even smaller?. In a pretty tight grouping nevertheless. I can probably do the same grouping with an AR from 50-100 feet off a bench at a shooting range with iron sights. In a rather controled environment.

Of a rocking boat in heavy seas, there is no way in h@ll I can do this. Never tried to be honest, but my gut feeling there is no way this kind of shot pattern can be achieved based on the description of the event.

Anyways, something about this photo doesn't add up. My .02
I was issued and used a submachine gun for eighteen years. This looks just like a burst of full auto fire to me (without some sort of scale, I couldn’t guess the caliber) With Venezuela falling apart into chaos, I’ll bet more than one select fire military or pollce weapon has gone missing. And, if it is a government weapon, guess who probably stole it? (someone with traing in firing select fire weapons).
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:13   #35
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

I did a quick google search regarding AR15 (assume this what these holes came from), and things like this were statements regarding accuracy "I grouped under 2" with 10-shot groupings of Wolf 223 at 50 yd, supported/bench shooting with my 16" M4..."

In heavy seas you would be lucky that half of your shots will hit the 50' boat from 50 to 100 yard distance. IMHO

Anyways, its all just speculation. But those holes look more like someone had an accidental discharge while 5 feet away, not from another vessel in heavy seas.
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:20   #36
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

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Originally Posted by Alex_V View Post
I did a quick google search regarding AR15 (assume this what these holes came from), and things like this were statements regarding accuracy "I grouped under 2" with 10-shot groupings of Wolf 223 at 50 yd, supported/bench shooting with my 16" M4..."

In heavy seas you would be lucky that half of your shots will hit the 50' boat from 50 to 100 yard distance. IMHO

Anyways, its all just speculation. But those holes look more like someone had an accidental discharge while 5 feet away, not from another vessel in heavy seas.
A two inch grouping at 50 yards from a bench rested rifle is absolutely horrible accuracy. And, Wolf is crap ammo, a long way away from milspec ammo. I was issued a semi-auto M-4 5.56mm after my SMG. It could shoot 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards all day.

If machine guns were that inaccurate, no one would use or issue them. We had belt fed M249s and HK21s at my agency for OCONUS assignments, and they fired really good groups in full auto burst fire.

Nothing I see in those pictures makes me think hoax or ND.
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:22   #37
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

A 4 round burst with an auto weapon capable of 400 rpm takes 0.6 seconds.
Rounds fired from any weapon have to land somewhere - they aren't going to go into planetary orbit.
Hitting a many meters long target at 50 meters range, even with some sea running - isn't at all out of the question. Also, it wouldn't be surprising that the shooter might have military or security service training. In Venezuela's case, they might even be active.
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:29   #38
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

My understanding is that shooting from a constantly rocking boat, onto another moving object throws all accuracy numbers way off. There is no information in the article what was the distance when shots were fired. few random bullet holes made perfect sense to me, that one with photo with a tight grouped shot didn't. Either way, it sucks that people got shot at.
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:33   #39
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

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Originally Posted by Alex_V View Post
My understanding is that shooting from a constantly rocking boat, onto another moving object throws all accuracy numbers way off. There is no information in the article what was the distance when shots were fired. few random bullet holes made perfect sense to me, that one with photo with a tight grouped shot didn't. Either way, it sucks that people got shot at.
If it hadn’t been a rocking boat, the holes would have been in some of them, and not just the boat, and they probably would all be dead or seriously screwed up.

A rocking boat doesn’t change your full auto burst group size, but only where it hits.

I mean, really, who is disputing this? People who just can’t accept the reality of well armed bad people in a boat from a country in a state of complete anarchy? I don’t find that scenario hard to believe at all.
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:35   #40
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_V View Post
I did a quick google search regarding AR15 (assume this what these holes came from), and things like this were statements regarding accuracy "I grouped under 2" with 10-shot groupings of Wolf 223 at 50 yd, supported/bench shooting with my 16" M4..."

In heavy seas you would be lucky that half of your shots will hit the 50' boat from 50 to 100 yard distance. IMHO

Anyways, its all just speculation. But those holes look more like someone had an accidental discharge while 5 feet away, not from another vessel in heavy seas.
Where are you getting the 50 to 100 yard distance from? i can't find any reference to that in any reports, i'd bet they where a hell of a lot closer than that when they abandoned there boarding attempt and let rip with the guns....
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:47   #41
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

I made a few assumptions simply for a conversation reason. 50 to a 100 yards feels like about a distance that something like this would happen. Two inch groupings is probably correct for someone of the bench who doesn't practice or is trained. Even a caliber is assumed based on wood grain and what is commonly available. Hand held automatic weapon is yet another assumption.

End of the day, this is no more than an armchair conversation. I will keep my opinion on this, and you gentlemen don't have to change yours.

Go to a shooting range, rent AR15, and from 50 yards do a rapid burst. Post photos of the target. Next try the same as you are being rocked by waves. I will try that next time I am at the range, but I already know how accurate this will turn out.
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Old 16-04-2019, 11:59   #42
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_V View Post
I made a few assumptions simply for a conversation reason. 50 to a 100 yards feels like about a distance that something like this would happen. Two inch groupings is probably correct for someone of the bench who doesn't practice or is trained. Even a caliber is assumed based on wood grain and what is commonly available. Hand held automatic weapon is yet another assumption.

End of the day, this is no more than an armchair conversation. I will keep my opinion on this, and you gentlemen don't have to change yours.

Go to a shooting range, rent AR15, and from 50 yards do a rapid burst. Post photos of the target. Next try the same as you are being rocked by waves. I will try that next time I am at the range, but I already know how accurate this will turn out.
Oh i see now it was only hypothetical i wasn't questioning the grouping theory.......but still, no point zigzagging if the bad guys don't come any closer than 50>100 yards now is there
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Old 16-04-2019, 12:15   #43
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

Full auto grouping on a 1/2 second burst is a function of the movement of both the target and the weapon. Boats are pretty damped, unless you are on a high speed craft on a plane.
Hitting that particular spot was probably luck, and as Group9 observed, it was good that no people were hit.
Venezuela is approaching near anarchy, and there is a lot of anti- American feeling there, especially within Maduro's militia. The militias also have access to plentiful weapons. People are suffering from malnutrition, lack of medical attention.
Seems like a region of the world to stay well clear of while you are vacationing on your cruise.
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Old 16-04-2019, 14:16   #44
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_V View Post
I made a few assumptions simply for a conversation reason. 50 to a 100 yards feels like about a distance that something like this would happen. Two inch groupings is probably correct for someone of the bench who doesn't practice or is trained. Even a caliber is assumed based on wood grain and what is commonly available. Hand held automatic weapon is yet another assumption.

End of the day, this is no more than an armchair conversation. I will keep my opinion on this, and you gentlemen don't have to change yours.

Go to a shooting range, rent AR15, and from 50 yards do a rapid burst. Post photos of the target. Next try the same as you are being rocked by waves. I will try that next time I am at the range, but I already know how accurate this will turn out.
It’s not an arm chair conversation for those of us who have qualified in, trained with, and used, full auto weaponry as part of our jobs.

There is a reason I don’t give out my opinions on brain surgery, thermo dynamics, or dentistry.
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Old 16-04-2019, 15:12   #45
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Re: piracy attack in trinidad

A story that I heard from a reliable source. Three guys in a panga were going to board a boat at 0300. The boat owner came out armed. The one armed panga guy and the captain both emptied their automatics at perhaps 15-20 feet. One guy was grazed in the ass. Everybody else sailed away.
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