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Old 09-11-2020, 17:51   #46
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

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Originally Posted by Reel Love View Post
pdjb

So you purchased something.
Have no idea what it is.
Have no idea what you may, or may not, have title to.

Sounds familiar.

1. Pay the $500 +/- and go retain an attorney. A NC Attorney.
You can most likely do this via the internet.

2. Listen to what the attorney tells you.

NOTE: You may have purchased an exclusive right to use. You may have purchased and interest in a Co-Op. You may have purchased a "dockominium". Or you may have purchased a long term lease. No one on this website can tell you what you purchased without looking at the actual documents. And as an attorney, I can affirm that even then it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what you purchased.

You also want to know if your rights are of record, and how those rights are being protected either at law, or by some trustee, third party, or governing association. You want to know what you're obligations are, and what your benefits are.

3. Next time, hire the attorney BEFORE entering into the contract. You may be surprised at what you are getting yourself into.

Hope everything works out for you.



Reel Love, thanks for weighing in on this! And Welcome to the Forum as well!
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Old 09-11-2020, 19:14   #47
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

I doubt you own anything other than the exclusive use of the space between the finger piers, and it may or may not be transferable, but still taxable and subject to common liabilities.
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Old 09-11-2020, 20:02   #48
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

Typically, the State "owns" the mud under the water. Private, municipal and other marina's or dock owners typically have to "lease" the so-called "submerged" land from the State. There are a few...and I mean a very few....people or other entities that "own" the " submerged" lands, but they are far and few between.

What is most likely, when you "buy" a slip, you are buying the physical dock structure, and to which, is added your "portion" of the "submerged" land lease under your boat, that is being paid by the marina or other entity. I don't believe that it is possible to be able to "buy" a "portion" of this, hence, you will not get a title of other document denoted this as "your" land.
A submerged land lease gets renewed on a yearly basis. I've seen a few of these marina's where you "buy" the slip, but I think that is a play on words. Read your contract carefully.

Its extremely rare to have an individual or entity "own" a "submerged" land. Extremely rare. Even getting a submerged land lease is very difficult. One has to jump thru' a number of permitting hoops to just get a "lease".

I worked with some guys that specialize in this area, and as far as I know, people or entities that were able to " buy" submerged lands, few as they are, were able to do so so 50-60 years ago. How this was accomplished back then, I cannot say, but in today's world, "buying" "submerged" land is practically impossible.
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Old 09-11-2020, 21:17   #49
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

I could never understand why anyone would buy a boat slip. All the condo marinas that I have seen charge an annual condo fee that is about what you would pay to rent a slip. Secondly condo slips never appreciate in value. Every time I see one for sale the seller can't get a taker if he is selling for less than half of what he paid. On top of the lousy financial reasons isn't the main benefit of owning a boat is the fact that it moves. If your marina turns into a miserable place you can move that is unless you own the slip.
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:23   #50
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

Not exactly on the "appreciation" comment. You are basically buying a time share, and, sadly you are stuck with those "fees" forever. If you compare the fees with comparable slip leases in the area, then you can determine "value". It is all relative.
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:40   #51
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

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I could never understand why anyone would buy a boat slip. All the condo marinas that I have seen charge an annual condo fee that is about what you would pay to rent a slip. Secondly condo slips never appreciate in value.
I think I'd agree with you for many "dockominium" projects. In fact, I feel the same way about condominiums.

But I've found the opposite to be true for the boat club I belong to. Slips ("memberships") have appreciated over time. Even during the housing melt-down I would have been able to sell mine for what I paid.

Even buying into a hot market, I figured I'd have a 10-year payback by owning instead of renting a slip. That factored in purchase price and annual fees. I specifically did NOT factor in any resale value.

Ten years have come and gone, and I'm WAY ahead. Not only have I saved money every year compared to renting, but my membership (slip) is now worth more than I paid for it. As an investment, I've had great returns.

I think the difference is that the whole club is owned and managed by the boat owners. There is no larger ownership interest, like you'd find if the slips were part of a condo complex or hotel or whatever.
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Old 10-11-2020, 11:33   #52
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

sailboats are meant to be out there...to be used...if it's a dock queen, consider this..
let me do some math....
if you were to buy a boat...say.....for $100,000...cash purchase
your sales tax on it would be around $6,500 depending on where you live...
if you keep it at a marina. you will likely be on the hook for around $800/month....give or take...I'm talking your average 40 footer...$9,600 a year...liveaboards higher $$$
Add electric and insurance....probably another $250 a month...$3,000 a year
add maintenance and fuel...say $100/month....$1,200 a year...
after 10 years, you will have spend $144,500 ( plus the $100K for the boat) =$244,500....and your $100K boat might now be worth $65K....

Remember the adage...." a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money"

unless you use it....a lot....it's a poor investment...
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Old 10-11-2020, 13:16   #53
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

There are some great comments here about the legalities and I want to thank those who have laid out some of the finer points of ownership. These comments were very enlightening.

Other have correctly pointed out that often times ownership is a poor investment. Having said that, I think it is important that we recognize that one should rarely consider the purchase of a dock in what ever form, a good investment. It is much like a primary home, i.e. a home that one lives in. The same is generally true for new cars. These items are usually a poor investment and therefore, one buys them for other reasons.

Some have alluded to the benefits of owning a slip, but naturally it will vary for each person.

1. If the person doesn't cruise or doesn't cruise very often or very far, then they will not have to worry about the slip being rented to someone else, assuming they obey the rules and pay their common fees.
2. They will be able to make whatever modifications they care to make, as allowed by the marina rules.
3. They may be able to sublet the slip if allowed by the marina rules.
4. There may be tax advantages if they are a live aboard or use if for business.

McHughV is right that sailboats are meant to be used, but circumstances can change and some people may find that ownership is worth the expense and the depreciation is not worth worrying about. For me, ownership is not worth it but I nonetheless wish the OP well in his quest to find out what he actually bought.
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Old 10-11-2020, 15:23   #54
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

I've been at this now, for 35 years or more. It still surprises me to be at a marina and see some boats at a marina with nobody on it, day in, day out, week after week, month after month. Nobody comes to check on the boat, start the engine or otherwise check on the boat. Nobody. The monthly dockage is likely an automatic withdrawal from some or other checking or saving account. The boat just sits there and then one day, it's gone. Where too ? Nobody ever seems to know. Sometimes the boat sinks at the dock.
I had a boat neighbor once, nice guy. He'd come down every weekend or so and just putz around on the boat. Had no intention or desire of sailing it anywhere, but enjoyed being on the water, fiddling around with his boat. That was his boating adventure. Though he was married, I never saw his wife down there with him, any of his friends or other family, it was always just him. Clearly his wife did not share his passion, which is often the case. Like other boats, one day, it was gone. No explanation, no reason, just gone !
So, it's hard to say, why some people own a boat. Looking around area marina's, it seems that the majority of boats never leave the dock. Why ?...who knows....people catch the dream, but for one reason or another can't undo the umbilical line to land.
I've gone to some places where people haul their boat for " storage", intending to use it at some time, but then life happens, and the boat just sits there, year after year after year. Eventually, the yard takes it over.

I can offer no answer to any of this. I have my own theories, but the reality is that I don't know.

The boating dream snags a lot of people, but turning that dream into reality is not easy and the draw on your purse strings is never ending.
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Old 10-11-2020, 18:32   #55
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
sailboats are meant to be out there...to be used...if it's a dock queen, consider this..
let me do some math....
if you were to buy a boat...say.....for $100,000...cash purchase
your sales tax on it would be around $6,500 depending on where you live...
if you keep it at a marina. you will likely be on the hook for around $800/month....give or take...I'm talking your average 40 footer...$9,600 a year...liveaboards higher $$$
Add electric and insurance....probably another $250 a month...$3,000 a year
add maintenance and fuel...say $100/month....$1,200 a year...
after 10 years, you will have spend $144,500 ( plus the $100K for the boat) =$244,500....and your $100K boat might now be worth $65K....

Remember the adage...." a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money"

unless you use it....a lot....it's a poor investment...
Like Iíve said for years....thereís nothing practical about owning a sailboat. Donít even try to rationalize any aspect of ownership.
Iím living proof.
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Old 10-11-2020, 18:44   #56
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

I own two slips. One is a deeded slip as part of a Condo in the ICW meaning I own it and pay taxes. The other is a share of a 50 year lease - pier 39 in San Francisco (which is for sale of anyone wants a 40 foot slip).

The deeded slip is a smoking deal and is why I purchased the condo in the first place. Carries $0 HOA fees. $0 maintenance fees except what I decide to do myself. Free moorage

The SF slip has a month maintenance charge. When you settle everything, it saves about 15%-20% on regular slip rental. I have it in a rental pool and it's cash positive..... Barely. I'd sell it for a decent price if anyone's interested. In a place like SF where slips are difficult to find, it works.

PM me if you're interested in a 40-foot slip with double fingers and great restaurants at the top of the dock. $9k.

Peter
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Old 10-11-2020, 19:52   #57
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
sailboats are meant to be out there...to be used...if it's a dock queen, consider this..
let me do some math....
if you were to buy a boat...say.....for $100,000...cash purchase
your sales tax on it would be around $6,500 depending on where you live...
if you keep it at a marina. you will likely be on the hook for around $800/month....give or take...I'm talking your average 40 footer...$9,600 a year...liveaboards higher $$$
Add electric and insurance....probably another $250 a month...$3,000 a year
add maintenance and fuel...say $100/month....$1,200 a year...
after 10 years, you will have spend $144,500 ( plus the $100K for the boat) =$244,500....and your $100K boat might now be worth $65K....

Remember the adage...." a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money"

unless you use it....a lot....it's a poor investment...
Owning a boat is not, in any sense, an investment. It is an expense.

The only justification is if you are totally in love with the idea of sailing that boat, or just owning it.

It is like an addiction. If you are addicted to it, then owning it may be the cheapest way to satisfy the addiction. Of course there are other ways, but they may not be as satisfying.

If you are addicted, and your addiction holds, maybe you need to own it.

Otherwise it is a dream of a life style which does not exist and sooner or later you will realize that fact and cut your losses.

BUT, if you have to have that boat, if you have to sail it every week, if you cannot think of anything else but getting out on the water and putting the sails up and getting underway, then, by all means, buy the boat, get a slip any way you can, and give in to the addiction, you're lost anyhow.
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Old 10-11-2020, 20:28   #58
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

What you describe, including the very small surcharge on electrical power, does exist -- as far we can tell from how you've described it. But the only way to know for sure whether you have acquired actual legal rights or not is to ask a lawyer, which you should have done before paying money. If you got the slip as part of buying a house then the title opinion might cover the slip as well -- you would need to read the documents.



You have not, in all probability, acquired any kind of real estate, but rather what is called a license, which if correctly done is somewhat similar to real estate, but as others have said, may be conditioned on following the rules, failing which, as is often the case, you might even lose your rights.
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Old 11-11-2020, 06:44   #59
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

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Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
Typically, the State "owns" the mud under the water. Private, municipal and other marina's or dock owners typically have to "lease" the so-called "submerged" land from the State. There are a few...and I mean a very few....people or other entities that "own" the " submerged" lands, but they are far and few between.

What is most likely, when you "buy" a slip, you are buying the physical dock structure, and to which, is added your "portion" of the "submerged" land lease under your boat, that is being paid by the marina or other entity. I don't believe that it is possible to be able to "buy" a "portion" of this, hence, you will not get a title of other document denoted this as "your" land.
A submerged land lease gets renewed on a yearly basis. I've seen a few of these marina's where you "buy" the slip, but I think that is a play on words. Read your contract carefully.

Its extremely rare to have an individual or entity "own" a "submerged" land. Extremely rare. Even getting a submerged land lease is very difficult. One has to jump thru' a number of permitting hoops to just get a "lease".

I worked with some guys that specialize in this area, and as far as I know, people or entities that were able to " buy" submerged lands, few as they are, were able to do so so 50-60 years ago. How this was accomplished back then, I cannot say, but in today's world, "buying" "submerged" land is practically impossible.
A sidetrack but something you might find interesting trivia...there are a not insignificant number of privately owned lots on the Outer Banks that are now physically "submerged lands", some several hundred yards off the beach. Not sure if they legally meet that standard and you certainly wouldn't want to build a slip on them, but I'm pretty sure the current owners would be happy to sell them!
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Old 11-11-2020, 08:09   #60
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Re: owning your own slip scam or not

It's interesting, but a similar situation exists on the Florida West coast....where original platted sub-division lots along the ocean are now part of the beach or even submerged. If you were to own one of those lots, you'd be pretty much SOL.

Then there is the issue of "riparian" rights...which gives homeowners living on the water, "access" but do not own it.
Let's throw in " litoral" rights while we are it.

In Florida we also have the mean high water line rule and other setback requirements....not going to try and explain that here...

It's a complicated morass of rules and regulations....here in Florida, there are several regulatory agencies which rule over the " waters of the State". Negotiating your way thru' them requires a lot of money and time. Getting a "submerged land lease" is no easy feat.

I've been involved in lawsuits in southern Florida, where one homeowner was suing his neighbor for "blocking his view" of the water with his big boat.

The Florida beaches are yet something else.....trying to build anything on the beach or just offshore is a nightmare of permitting requirements. Many beach folk try to build waterfront bulkheads to protect their oceanside homes from hurricanes.....a permitting nightmare for some...

And let's not forget the " right to eminent domain" which allows the guv'mint to take your land, ok, they will pay you for it"....but they'll take it...

But getting back to the topic at hand.."owning your own slip" is a dubious way of going about tying your boat up.....imo....

Interestingly, an approaching hurricane asks nobody for permission to come on to your property, destroy your home, your boat, your neighborhood, your beach, your roads, etc.
Hurricanes do not recognize or care whether or not you own your boat slip..they'll just take it and leave you crying.

Which brings the whole "ownership" thing into question for me. You certainly can't take anything you "own" to the grave with you, well, you could take your favorite clean shirt, but you'll have to leave "your" boat slip behind......
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