New England Liveaboard Heating Recommendations

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by rphdiego

If you want heat for long periods of time then Hydronic is your only option. Go to the suremarineseattle website and go through the provided information. They are the countries leader in boat heating systems.

Why do you say Hydronic is the only option? The same type of diesel fired burners heat air for forced air heaters. Why is not not an equally effective option, plus it has some advantages. (faster heating, fewer components).

Originally Posted by RaymondR

...I already have a butane water heater installed in my radar pole which has a couple of valves to bypass the hot water tank so I could exchange this for a gas boiler (the image) they are about the same size, and use the existing water piping system with dome more valves to bring the hot water from the boiler to the places in the boat where the radiators are needed and use it to shower with as well...

Butane and Propane have far fewer BTU's for use in heating a boat. It will work for domestic hot water but not for continuous use to heat a boat. And besides, how and where would you refill that tank?

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

...Wood is a much better option...

Wood is a wonderful , warm, and dry heat source but it is bulky and not always available. Where on board do you store your stack of wood? That means you will never be going sailing or getting underway with a stack of wood on board. If you dream of a snowbound cabin in the woods with a tendril of wood smoke coming out of the chimney you might as well have a cabin in the woods.

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

...a GRAVITY fed Diesel heater, such as a Dickenson Antarctica has enough BTU capability to heat a 40ft. Easily, and will heat water, can be used to cook on...

Yes, a diesel heater such as Dickenson is an excellent and reliable source of heat. Distributing the heat around the boat is a challenge but is easily met with fans and ducts. Adding a coil for hot water is also a good solution and the surface is handy for a teapot.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Why do you say Hydronic is the only option? The same type of diesel fired burners heat air for forced air heaters. Why is not not an equally effective option, plus it has some advantages. (faster heating, fewer components).



Butane and Propane have far fewer BTU's for use in heating a boat. It will work for domestic hot water but not for continuous use to heat a boat. And besides, how and where would you refill that tank?



Wood is a wonderful , warm, and dry heat source but it is bulky and not always available. Where on board do you store your stack of wood? That means you will never be going sailing or getting underway with a stack of wood on board. If you dream of a snowbound cabin in the woods with a tendril of wood smoke coming out of the chimney you might as well have a cabin in the woods.



Yes, a diesel heater such as Dickenson is an excellent and reliable source of heat. Distributing the heat around the boat is a challenge but is easily met with fans and ducts. Adding a coil for hot water is also a good solution and the surface is handy for a teapot.

My meaning was not a singular source like just wood or just diesel.
But, complementary sources used together.

Shipmate if still in business builds beautiful wood stoves and quite compact.
Dickenson Antarctica Diesel stoves are moderately large.

Used together, I don't think you'd need much more.

It would be a bit of a learning curve to use either while actually sailing with much more than 20 degrees of heel, or more?

Hydronic may have some advantage here, but the Exaust must be high and shielded from wave splash.
Boatyarddog

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

...It would be a bit of a learning curve to use either while actually sailing with much more than 20 degrees of heel, or more?

Hydronic may have some advantage here, but the Exaust must be high and shielded from wave splash.
Boatyarddog

Heat while sailing:

The Dickenson may not operate properly at much high angle of heel because it has a float to meter the fuel and this may not work well when tipped. The other issue with stoves or heaters which vaporize fuel such as Dickenson and my High Seas is that downdrafts in the stack blow out the fire which then has to be relit. Meanwhile the fuel is still being vaporized and that instantly fills the boat with acrid smoke. You need a high stack and a blower and even that will not prevent high pressures on deck from the airflow around the sails, and also pressure caused by swell action at sea.

For heat while at sea (on a sailboat) the best option I think is hydronic. Those burners have higher internal pressure and also a small exhaust which can be placed where most effective.

However, some of the MOST pleasant nights on board our boat were in a warm cabin in the cold of winter when the flickering light from the fire burning in the heater was so visually warming. For that you need a heater with a window.

[hpeer]

Wingsail,

The Espar forced air has the same advantage when sailing.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Wingsail,

The Espar forced air has the same advantage when sailing.

Yes, I agree. I used an Espar D3 for a couple of years and it worked nicely while sailing. But the electrical usage with the powerful blower fan was over 3 amps continuously; costly in my opinion for use away from shore power. I think the hydronic units can circulate water for less power and the radiators don't need to have their fans running. I might be wrong.

But the passive Dickenson uses almost zero power, ideal for several frosty days at anchor when solar is not doing much.

We also found that for short sailing days even in freezing weather we didn't need much heat in the boat because we were bundled up in layers of polar fleece and weather gear">foul weather gear anyway. We needed the heat when we anchored and wanted a warm cabin so we could strip off all those heavy clothes.

But if you're planning longer high latitude passages it might be different.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Heat while sailing:

The Dickenson may not operate properly at much high angle of heel because it has a float to meter the fuel and this may not work well when tipped. The other issue with stoves or heaters which vaporize fuel such as Dickenson and my High Seas is that downdrafts in the stack blow out the fire which then has to be relit. Meanwhile the fuel is still being vaporized and that instantly fills the boat with acrid smoke. You need a high stack and a blower and even that will not prevent high pressures on deck from the airflow around the sails, and also pressure caused by swell action at sea.

For heat while at sea (on a sailboat) the best option I think is hydronic. Those burners have higher internal pressure and also a small exhaust which can be placed where most effective.

However, some of the MOST pleasant nights on board our boat were in a warm cabin in the cold of winter when the flickering light from the fire burning in the heater was so visually warming. For that you need a heater with a window.

Quote
"For heat while at sea (on a sailboat) the best option I think is hydronic. Those burners have higher internal pressure and also a small exhaust which can be placed where most effective.

However, some of the MOST pleasant nights on board our boat were in a warm cabin in the cold of winter when the flickering light from the fire burning in the heater was so visually warming. For that you need a heater with a window."

I agree, and The Dickenson Newport model has this window.
And in my 32 ft Ketch, it requires opening a port to bleed off excessive heat.

Possibly the most effective and trouble free heat during sailing would be propane.

Gosh, with all the required heat sources required to stay warm... Below decks.
Maybe just a geographical change in Latitudes would be the cheapest option.
Tropics, coconuts and Palm trees
Boatyarddog

[hpeer]

Wingsail,

I hear you. These discussions can be all over the place because we each make different assumptions about the use case. A NW passage run run is different than a winter in a Toronto marina is different than year round day sailing on the Chesapeake.

And each of us react to cold differently. I am now allergic to it. Spoiled by the Caribbean. LOL

[bdgWesternMass]

I find radiant heat the best type of heating wherever I am. Hydronic doesn't imply any form for generating the heat. This heat can even be generated with air sourced or water sourced heat pump. If one uses enough emitters/raditors/heated surface area one can heat a room especially a small room well insulated room with 90 or 32 degree temperature water depending on the measuring system.

The flexibility of run the heat supply and return lines provides easy coverage to all the desired areas. The density of the radiant emitters can be increased in high loss areas and minimized in others.

The reaction time may not be as quick as on startup but it won't need to run at the same power load to maintain temperature once it is comfortable. I also don't find the reaction time that as that slow in small rooms.

It could be argued that it is more difficult to retrofit. I don't find this as a fair judgement. The heating job performed by hydronic is much better than forced hot air.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

I find radiant heat the best type of heating wherever I am. Hydronic doesn't imply any form for generating the heat. This heat can even be generated with air sourced or water sourced heat pump. If one uses enough emitters/raditors/heated surface area one can heat a room especially a small room well insulated room with 90 or 32 degree temperature water depending on the measuring system.

The flexibility of run the heat supply and return lines provides easy coverage to all the desired areas. The density of the radiant emitters can be increased in high loss areas and minimized in others.

The reaction time may not be as quick as on startup but it won't need to run at the same power load to maintain temperature once it is comfortable. I also don't find the reaction time that as that slow in small rooms.

It could be argued that it is more difficult to retrofit. I don't find this as a fair judgement. The heating job performed by hydronic is much better than forced hot air.

Boats aren't houses, and generally there are no "rooms".

A cruise ship may have rooms and they have a lot more Mass to store heat, but for the smaller 50' and less the mass isn't great enough for equalization to occur as easily, and thus trim the heat load.

Hydronic, https://www.google.com/search?q=hydr...&client=safari
Refers to the mode of heat transfer "hydro" water.

The mode of heating the water in hydronic is usually diesel fired, as it is the most availabie on board a boat.

Forced air is louder, is quick to warm up, uses lots power, and can be fueled by gas diesel or electricity.

Thermostats aren't used in seperate areas in a boat as well.
1 thermostat for the entire boat, the air temp regulates that.

Boats aren't well insulated capsules that store much room heat.
"Emitters" and "Radiators" don't work as efficiently as a salon Thermostat.
There's not much tapering of the heat generated, it's generally on, till the T Stat says Off.
Then it cycles back to on.

Hydronic room heated houses, and warmed floors are wonderful.

How would one go about using a heat pump on a vessel.
I think it's a great theory, how can it be implemented though.
Would the heat transfer involve a type of refrigerant?

Cooling is no issue, how can we extract heat from seawater to heat the boat.
Do tell more!
Thanks
Boatyarddog

[flyingfin]

Wind turbine to run oil filled electric radiator

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

Boats aren't houses, and generally there are no "rooms".

A cruise ship may have rooms and they have a lot more Mass to store heat, but for the smaller 50' and less the mass isn't great enough for equalization to occur as easily, and thus trim the heat load.

Hydronic, https://www.google.com/search?q=hydr...&client=safari
Refers to the mode of heat transfer "hydro" water.

The mode of heating the water in hydronic is usually diesel fired, as it is the most availabie on board a boat.

Forced air is louder, is quick to warm up, uses lots power, and can be fueled by gas diesel or electricity.

Thermostats aren't used in seperate areas in a boat as well.
1 thermostat for the entire boat, the air temp regulates that.

Boats aren't well insulated capsules that store much room heat.
"Emitters" and "Radiators" don't work as efficiently as a salon Thermostat.
There's not much tapering of the heat generated, it's generally on, till the T Stat says Off.
Then it cycles back to on.

Hydronic room heated houses, and warmed floors are wonderful.

How would one go about using a heat pump on a vessel.
I think it's a great theory, how can it be implemented though.
Would the heat transfer involve a type of refrigerant?

Cooling is no issue, how can we extract heat from seawater to heat the boat.
Do tell more!
Thanks
Boatyarddog

I guess you don’t like radiant or hydronic heating. Most of your points are dogmatic and can be worked around.

I won’t wast our time elucidating them because I don’t think you care. I certainly don’t know why you felt the need to respond to my post considering you brought nothing new to the topic.