New England Liveaboard Heating Recommendations

[jimellifritt]

Originally Posted by nash_sailing

Hi all,



We are new liveaboards in Boston and as July goes on we are beginning to think about how to heat our 40' sailboat in the colder months. The only heating system currently installed is a hot water heater and a solid-fuel stove, which is luckily allowed in our marina - however we need a solution that will keep the boat at a reasonable temperature while we go to work during the day. We are also very worried about moisture, as our hull construction is not insulated - however it is quite thick, with 7 layers of FG.



This is our first season living aboard so we do not want a huge project, but electric only seems like a dangerous and expensive option, as does propane. We are currently considering a portable oil-filled radiator, a forced-air Eberspacher or knockoff, and have also heard good things about ceramic, but it seems like ventilation is a must. We are also planning on buying a desiccant dehumidifier and have heard that these give off a considerable amount of heat - can anyone clarify how much?



Finally, we are planning to take our boat cruising to the high lats in 2024, so any system that can work off shore power is preferred in the long run.



Thank you for any insight,



Nash

We have an Olympic Hydronic system. Did half of the install myself. We are in PacNW. Boat remain warm and dry at all times. It also heats our hot water. I have had Webastco forced air they are noisy IMO. Our large dehumifier is only used if we do not run diesel heater. It produce about 5-8 degrees of heat.

[twofingerpoi]

What is this "cold" of which you speak? I think I heard this happened once or twice here in Florida, but I'm not sure.

One of the best things about a sailboat is that they are mobile, so you can simply sail to warmer or cooler climates as the season dictates.

My reverse cycle air conditioner has a heater mode, which I know works from the survey but I'm not likely to use it.

[Wolfgang.Schau]

We have a 40' catamaran and installed a Webasto Heater (which are normally used for trucks) and 8 small water-to-air heat exchangers throughout the cabins. The Webasto pumps the hot water through the hoses. At each cabin, I installed a cheap A/C temperature controller ($25) to control a 12V fan to move the cabin air through the heat exchanger.
The way I plumbed this is using a water/water heat exchanger in the engine cooling loop and a 12V solar pump for the cabin loop. With this heating system the humidity in the cabin goes down, i.e., almost no condensation issues.
The function is as following: 1) When the engine is running, with the water/water heat exchanger it will heat the water pumped through the cabin heat exchangers, including the hot water boiler. A 12V Solar water pump moves the water through the cabin loop. This pump is turned on by a relay activated by the alternator. By the way: This gives you an emergency cooling for your engine if something goes wrong with the sea water cooling loop, I had a clogged raw water intake, tuned up the heat in the cabin and could motor at moderate rpms without overheating the engine. Note: I chose to introduce a water/water heat exchanger, to avoid the engine cooling loop unnecessarily be exposed leakage of this long loop.
2) When the engine is not running, the Webasto will kick in providing hot water for both, the cabin heat exchangers, and the water boiler.
3) Now living in Florida, I added a small chiller and pump cold water through the cabin loops for cooling. Drip trays collect the condensing water under the heat exchangers. Two 3-way valves needed to switch from heating to cooling mode, because you will still need the heat for the hot water boiler.
For people interested, I attached a sketch. It is not simple, but it works perfect, summer and winter alike. I had to run hot water hoses through the cabin, install the water/air heat exchangers in the cabinets, nobody recognizes it other than the grill.
With 750W solar power and 1000AH dedicated battery bank, I can run the chiller for several hours.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by nash_sailing

We are also planning on buying a desiccant dehumidifier and have heard that these give off a considerable amount of heat - can anyone clarify how much? Nash

WE use one of these, brilliant bit of kit.

https://www.meaco.com/products/meaco...r-dehumidifier

When we sail during the winter the boat is always cold and moving on board creates a lot of moisture during the first 48 hours or so. Its probably therefore hand but running the heating causes it to run down the inside of the hull sides. After about 48 hours the heating and dehumidifier have warmed the boat and reduced the damp to acceptable levels.

They do use slightly more power compared to a compressor type, but work well at lower temperatures. They also do give off warm dry air.

Pete

[Caleb_Grey]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Wallas www.wallas.fi cookers are much more user friendly and easier to install. Available with heater blower lid.


For heater consider a hydronic system with radiators or matrix heaters; Ebespatcher, Webasto or Wallas all can operate on 12v

Looks nice but id rather keep it simple and repairable by me, i dont need to update firmware on my stove.

[OneBoatman]

You are in for a surprise. We did this in Annapolis for 6 1/2 years. Not sure we would do it all over again in Boston. We squeaked by with 2 or sometimes 3 1500W heaters on an old school 39 ft sailboat. The amount of heat loss due to the hull sitting in cold and occasionally frozen water is more than you think. Late Dec to March will be a major challenge in Boston. Many winter nights we slept with an inside temp 50 degrees and sometimes 40. We went to a motel about 4 or 5 times over this period, usually when it snowed more than 10 inches, or if the temperature was under 15 degrees for more than a day. I hauled the boat every year to do the bottom. You will never have enough power to run heaters with only solar. Having a winter cover seemed to help hold heat in but this would make having a stack somewhat dangerous. Check your power cords religously if use shore power or you will become a statistic and perhaps burn down part of a marina.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by OneBoatman

You are in for a surprise. We did this in Annapolis for 6 1/2 years. Not sure we would do it all over again in Boston. We squeaked by with 2 or sometimes 3 1500W heaters on an old school 39 ft sailboat. The amount of heat loss due to the hull sitting in cold and occasionally frozen water is more than you think. Late Dec to March will be a major challenge in Boston. Many winter nights we slept with an inside temp 50 degrees and sometimes 40. We went to a motel about 4 or 5 times over this period, usually when it snowed more than 10 inches, or if the temperature was under 15 degrees for more than a day. I hauled the boat every year to do the bottom. You will never have enough power to run heaters with only solar. Having a winter cover seemed to help hold heat in but this would make having a stack somewhat dangerous. Check your power cords religously if use shore power or you will become a statistic and perhaps burn down part of a marina.

Seattle is not as cold as Boston, but we had sub freezing several times each winter, often for as long as two weeks at a time and snow accumulations of over 6" were common and the sea water froze occasionally. We lived aboard in those conditions for 10 years. We did manage to keep warm, always over 60 degrees inside the boat.

Even with moderate insulation and a cored deck we found we needed 11,000 to 15,000 BTU to heat the boat. That much heat is not easy to produce with electricity on a 30AMP shore power connection and anyhow, electric heat is damp since it simply heats up the moist air which is already present in the boat. For those reasons we choose diesel heat. And since we were away from the boat all day at work and choose not to run heat while we were gone we needed fast heat to warm it up quickly when we got home in the evening.

Forced air heat from a diesel heater (Espar) did the trick. With one long run of 4" ducting and several outlets warming the boat was almost instant. One 1500watt electric heater gave a boost. We were able to enjoy meals in the boat with normal clothing, not bundled up in down jackets. The forced hot air (heated from outside air) was dry and kept condensation to a minimum.

Other steps we took to improve the boat for these conditions were:

• Hanging curtains or closing doors so that only the main cabin was normally heated.
• Adding down comforters to the beds
• placing a full boat cover over the boat to keep the air over the boat warmer and keep snow off the deck.
• After a change over to a "Pot Burner" diesel heater (see below), adding a 4' stack to the heater (removable) to improve the draft

The Espar lasted two years but continuous maintenance issues were a problem and it used quite a bit of 12v power so use at anchor (winter cruises) was difficult.

At that point we uninstalled the Espar and installed a diesel "pot burner" heater which I modified to put out about 15000 BTU. This heater did not have a blower so we installed several fans to circulate the heat and keep the nearby bulkheads cool. With an inline fan we were able to continue to use the hot air ducts.

With at last modification we were vary happy living aboard in the cold weather even at anchor. The only problem was that the heater did not work well while sailing because high pressure air from the sails blew down the stack and blew out the fire, which resulted in a smokey interior. But we still have this heater and used it occasionally on our circumnavigation when we visited cooler countries (such as New Zealand and South Africa in winter).

[Dockhead]

Lot of good answers here. And there are lots of choices for the OP.

Some comments:

1. The forced draft burner type heaters (Eber, Webasto, Planar, etc), whether hydronic or forced air, are the most effective, and don't require free bulkhead space, but they are complex, require maintenance, and do break down, and are very complicated to repair. Carrying a good set of spares, service manual, and complete spare unit is recommended.

2. Pot type heaters (Reflex, Dickinson, Wallas, etc.) are much simpler and more reliable, but need bulkhead space and a hole in the deck for a chimney, and don't distribute the heat very well.

3. I wouldn't use either of the above when off the boat. Oil filled electric radiator is good for that, provided you are 100% sure of your electrical system (and supply), with particular attention to the shore power inlet (use SmartPlug, and never one of those infernal Marinco ones). Good also for heating at night when you don't need as much heat and don't want noise (I second the recommendation for down duvets on the beds).

4. I mostly use electric fan heaters when on shore power and turn on my Eberspacher hydronic only when it's so cold that's not enough. I do that to keep down hours on the Eber, which I mostly use at anchor or underway under sail

5. Bus heater plumbed into calorifier circuit is really useful. Free and abundant heat whenever you use the main engine.

[starminx]

[QUOTE=nash_sailing;3654148]Hi all,



We are new liveaboards in Boston and as July goes on we are beginning to think about how to heat our 40' sailboat in the colder months. The only heating system currently installed is a hot water heater and a solid-fuel stove, which is luckily allowed in our marina - however we need a solution that will keep the boat at a reasonable temperature while we go to work during the day. We are also very worried about moisture, as our hull construction is not insulated - however it is quite thick, with 7 layers of FG.



This is our first season living aboard so we do not want a huge project, but electric only seems like a dangerous and expensive option, as does propane. We are currently considering a portable oil-filled radiator, a forced-air Eberspacher or knockoff, and have also heard good things about ceramic, but it seems like ventilation is a must. We are also planning on buying a desiccant dehumidifier and have heard that these give off a considerable amount of heat - can anyone clarify how much?



Finally, we are planning to take our boat cruising to the high lats in 2024, so any system that can work off shore power is preferred in the long run.



Thank you for any insight,



Nash
Hej there,
Am a living aboard since 2009. Plenty of experience with world brands without real satisfaction,( high consumption, deck full of soot, obligatory regular cleaning of heater just when you need a efficient heater).
Discovered an other unit called arcticblueflamme installed since 2015, Low consumption, full combustion thus no more cleaning, no electrics required .
Very satisfied!
Starminx

[Boatyarddog]

[QUOTE=starminx;3657396]

Originally Posted by nash_sailing

Hi all,



We are new liveaboards in Boston and as July goes on we are beginning to think about how to heat our 40' sailboat in the colder months. The only heating system currently installed is a hot water heater and a solid-fuel stove, which is luckily allowed in our marina - however we need a solution that will keep the boat at a reasonable temperature while we go to work during the day. We are also very worried about moisture, as our hull construction is not insulated - however it is quite thick, with 7 layers of FG.



This is our first season living aboard so we do not want a huge project, but electric only seems like a dangerous and expensive option, as does propane. We are currently considering a portable oil-filled radiator, a forced-air Eberspacher or knockoff, and have also heard good things about ceramic, but it seems like ventilation is a must. We are also planning on buying a desiccant dehumidifier and have heard that these give off a considerable amount of heat - can anyone clarify how much?



Finally, we are planning to take our boat cruising to the high lats in 2024, so any system that can work off shore power is preferred in the long run.



Thank you for any insight,



Nash
Hej there,
Am a living aboard since 2009. Plenty of experience with world brands without real satisfaction,( high consumption, deck full of soot, obligatory regular cleaning of heater just when you need a efficient heater).
Discovered an other unit called arcticblueflamme installed since 2015, Low consumption, full combustion thus no more cleaning, no electrics required .
Very satisfied!
Starminx

Two question come to mind.
Having read the instructions carefully and the installation manuals.

1. Non electric means gravity feed for fuel, in fridged temps. Your diesel gels rapidly.
Fuel will not flow as easily, how does one, especially if there's a filter inline keep a constant fuel flow, seems you'd need a pump, like a Dickenson heater uses.

2. Fresh air inlet, one has to pipe in Fresh Air, and cut an additional air inlet as high as possible because of waves while transiting, and that means an additional dorade box or Charlie Noble to keep water out.
At 80mm, that opening is as large as the exaust flue.

Maybe you've developed some "alterations" to deal with these issues.
I love the look and thermocouples involved as safety precautions.

I currently use A Dickenson Newport Diesel stove and am happy with it.
Any input would be appreciated, as I have friends asking about low tech DIESEL stoves like this.
We live in the PNW, and the weather is temperate so diesel doesn't gel here.
Thanks in advance for your suggestions and experience.
Boatyarddog

[CarlF]

Most of the winter live aboards in Boston are in Constitution Marina. Maybe that’s where you plan to stay? In any case, I’d walk over and talk to them about how to best handle a Boston winter. It’s not just about heat.

I believe many of them erect a vented plastic greenhouse shelter over the deck with a door - this greatly reduces heating load and avoids tracking snow down the companionway.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2014/03/...ory.html?pic=1

[Lepke]

You should be prepared for the power to go out. If you're using ac heat or some stove that needs ac, then you'll be cold when the power isn't there. Also the dock water will be shut off during freezes.

Diesel heater or stove will produce the most heat and keep the moisture down. In the winter on the rainy Oregon coast, my humidity runs about 40% when it's 98% outside.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Most of the winter live aboards in Boston are in Constitution Marina. Maybe that’s where you plan to stay? In any case, I’d walk over and talk to them about how to best handle a Boston winter. It’s not just about heat.

I believe many of them erect a vented plastic greenhouse shelter over the deck with a door - this greatly reduces heating load and avoids tracking snow down the companionway.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2014/03/...ory.html?pic=1

We used our boat 12 months per year, even in sub freezing temperatures.

So a semi permanent structure such as you mention would be too much to remove every week or so when we went out. Plus, we had to go to the pump-out station, and periodically add fuel (in winter we used about a gallon a day for heat). Being a person who adamantly refuses to jerry can anything, we had to go to the fuel dock. That was OK, it got us off the dock and if the weather was nice, a short sail on a crisp day reminded us why we lived on a sailboat.

[Bowdrie]

Sometimes it's not all that difficult to mount a couple of Radex/Red Dot units, (some people scavenge truck/bus heaters,) and plumb them into the lines that run from the engine to the heat exchanger in the water heater.
With a couple of valves and a little Hydronic pump you are using the 1200>1500-watt heating element in the water heater to provide heat.
A bonus, the water heater also keeps the engine toasty.
Obviously, this requires an uninterrupted supply of shore power, but it's safe and effective if one does not require a large heat source.
I'm sure that it's for liability reasons that Dickinson disavows usage of their diesel stoves/heaters to be used unattended, but that doesn't seem to deter many in more remote parts of Alaska who will leave them on for days while they travel to Anchorage or Seattle and back, (they use gravity feed tanks,) and Dickinson does have an emergency shut-off device should the metering valve stick open and flood the burner.
I have a Dickinson Pacific stove; it runs 24/7 about 8 or so months a year and has done so for going on 29 years.
In the PNW I wouldn't be without it.

[El Pinguino]

Some thoughts.
I have been given to understand that the very best 'bus heaters' can be found in Ladas.

Scroll down here https://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Chile to see my thoughts in short form.

Living in a cold climate comes in three parts.
Dressing proper - Icebreaker thermals are king in that regard.

Insulating the boat. First thing is the ports.. as suggested before - but I just use bubblewrap or clingfilm , double sided tape, and draft excluder tape.

6mm EVO closed cell foam camping mats against the hull and deckhead. Best is foil backed , cut to size you can fit it anywhere. Use 'spray on' contact adhesive.

Heating? I would have a 'bus heater' but just can't find anywhere to fit one.
I rely on an Espaker, as noted here it only has to run for a few hours each day.

Photos - insulating the focsle. The deckhead 4mm EVA is out of sight and is just 'basic blue'.
The charcoal coloured 'carpet' does a remarkable job of stopping condensation so I guess it also insulates to a degree.
Below that 6mm foil backed camping mats.
Note - this is a storage area not a living area - 2nd pic a spinakker thingo, two Achilles inflatables, some beer, and a pumpkin.