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smj · 29-04-2021, 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Soggy MDF bulkheads caused by leaking escape hatches. Bulkheads separated from the hull.

Never personally seen MDF used on any sailboat, mono or multi. I have seen bulkheads separated from the hull, but that isn’t a cat thing as I’ve probably seen more on monohulls. Me thinks it’s the use of polyester resin both as a secondary bond and to attach glass to wood. Maybe more of an age thing, But what do I know?

owly · 29-04-2021, 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLuckyone

Funny... my desires match yours fairly close, but I opted for a twin keeled Westerly Centaur, while keeping an eye out for a Fulmar. The latter would give me just that last little bit of comfortable room, but the former was convenient and fits the bill well enough. Guess we've got differing standards, and we want what we want.

Not surprisingly, when I was looking at monohulls, the Westerlies with bilge keels were near the top of my list. The Centaur is a bit small, the Fullmar would have been near the top of my list. I hate the Brit's idea of putting the galley forward, but I believe the Fullmar has it next to the companionway where you have some ventilation.

The weight of my priorities falls heavily toward a catamaran in my case.... I won't reiterate the reasons. I've repeated them often enough.

H.W.

Tupaia · 02-05-2021, 04:26

I vouch for Richard Woods designs even his 30ft cats perform exceptionally well and provide practical living.

If you are really constrained by budget then you might consider an older trimaran, Brown, Cross or Horstman.

owly · 02-05-2021, 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I vouch for Richard Woods designs even his 30ft cats perform exceptionally well and provide practical living.

If you are really constrained by budget then you might consider an older trimaran, Brown, Cross or Horstman.

At one time I was looking at trimarans, but the payload issues on small tris is worse than on cats. The pilot house provided by a bridge deck cabin on a cat has a lot of benefit for a solo sailor. I sleep in a recliner anyway, so a bridge deck cabin or pod makes sense for me. The elevated center cockpit on a Brown trimaran could have a good shelter without excessive windage, but in terms of payload the minimum would be the SR34 or SR37, that latter being a pretty large boat, and the mast is right in smack in the middle of the cockpit. The SR31 is too small in terms of payload. The Tristars are impressive in terms of space, and have a lot of fairly flat deck, but again you can't see anything from inside. The same can be said for Ken Cross designs Most trimaran designs do not list an estimated empty weight... just a displacement, with the exception of the Searunners. I'm assuming that with any of them 36' or so would be about the minimum size with sufficient payload.
Payload is hugely important to me. I am quite comfortable with a minimalist existence. There are some things I consider "non optional" like refrigeration and some sort of watermaker. I'm fine without running water, or a water heater, and with a composting head. I don't need a lot of galley junk, or wiring strung all over or an entertainment system, etc. I DO need tools and spares, and materials, and the capability of fabricating and repairing things. For me that looms much larger than for many folks. My desire to venture into remote areas makes this important to me.
About the ideal boat for me would be Richard Woods Vardo. I love his
Sagitta.... the size and design are perfect, but 1980lbs payload gets gobbled up rapidly once you start looking at what really is "payload". One has to look at loaded displacement... let's call it 6000 (rounded up 60lbs). People look at "payload" and forget that absolutely everything that isn't part of the boat is payload, and many things that ARE part of the boat reduce payload. It's really about displacement... it's about bridge deck clearance. Unlike monohulls, you can't get away with being sloppy about loading. A lot of builder "improvements" or "enhancements" add weight..... It all matters. One of my favorite aircraft designers Steve Whittman... a man I only ever met once, but did get to spend a few hours alone with him, used to say "simplcate and add lightness".
I like Bernd Kohler's designs in some ways. But like most designers he designs performance day sailors at the one end, and massive pigs at the other, and not much in the the middle ground. His Pelican is a brilliant design, but far too big and heavy for example, and his KD 860 is too small, and has a blind bridge deck cabin that is only 5' fore and aft dimension, with double berths forward instead of view.... Horstman does the same thing.

I've never figured out why being able to see is not important??? How many of us want to live in a hole in the ground, and have to climb a ladder to see anything? Being able to see is not just an aesthetic issue, but it is also a safety issue. I can look out my office window as I type, and see the snow covered peaks...... or at the moment actually I can see the storm clouds roaring down on me. I don't want to have to always bundle up and sit in the wind and rain or intense sun to see the world around me. I spent two years of my life living outdoors summer and winter, rain and hail, beating sun, sub zero winter temps...... taking shelter indoors only to sleep. On horseback and afoot, with a dog and a rifle. I know nobody else who can make that claim, but I was 40 years younger then.

In any case, it looks like economics will push me into a Wharram, and the T38 is the most likely candidate.
That could change literally overnight however....

H.W.

Icarus · 07-05-2021, 18:03

The fascination with multy hulls keeps popping up.
They are great as a condo substitute, not so great at sailing performance and maintenance.

fireant · 07-05-2021, 19:28

A little side tracking if I may. I read on here that a 37-40ft mono is a great size for sailing across an oceans and big enough to live on.
Why on a catamaran I read that most people prefer a 40-45ft+ for sailing?
Is there some design basics that make a cat not feel as good as a mono out in the ocean.
I hope my Question comes across as I intended.

Thanks

chrisr · 07-05-2021, 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireant

A little side tracking if I may. I read on here that a 37-40ft mono is a great size for sailing across an oceans and big enough to live on.
Why on a catamaran I read that most people prefer a 40-45ft+ for sailing?
Is there some design basics that make a cat not feel as good as a mono out in the ocean.
I hope my Question comes across as I intended.

Thanks

don't recall any thread agreeing that 37-40' mono 'is a great size for sailing across oceans'. sure the right mono in that size range is 'suitable' but 'great' is debatable !

as for big enough to live on...sure. you can live in a tent too if you want to. all depends upon what are your expectations. ours are a bit higher

feel that most cat owners prefer the size range of 40-45' for that reason : mostly we have cats because we expect a bit more out of life, and that size range is the sweet spot

undeniably there are other aspects ike carrying capacity & seaworthy-ness that combine as well

cheers,

owly · 07-05-2021, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarus

The fascination with multy hulls keeps popping up.
They are great as a condo substitute, not so great at sailing performance and maintenance.

That statement is both arrogant and ignorant. The "condo cat" is what the manufacturers want to build.... the big money people want them, and the profit margin is high. There are many cats and trimarans that do not fall into that category even remotely including most of the owner built boats. With dagger boards, which most performance oriented cats have, they will sail as close to the wind as a monohull, and far outsail a mono of comparable size. Neither does maintenance have to be particularly high.... There are 2 or 3 hulls, but they are far smaller hulls usually with less underwater area, the rest of the boat will have more surface to paint for a given length, but other than that it's a matter of systems.... your "condo cat" will have twin inboard diesels, but smaller multihulls may well have a single outboard, or a single inboard for a trimaran.... If you have complex plumbing and wiring strung throughout the boat, a head in each hull, showers, dishwashers, washers and driers (condo cat), of course you will have more maintenance. Multis range from the Hobies and other beach cats that will outsail monos many times their size, all the way up to the monster Lagoons and Gunboats, and other condo cats, and about everything in between, not to mention a slew of trimarans in all sizes.

The "real sailors sail monohulls" crowd will always be with us, but they sound a bit sillier every year.

Just for your enjoyment read this piece from Sports Illustrated May 1968 titled Hey Ho and Up She Rises It will convince you that they are unsafe as well ;-)

PS: PM me if you want to discuss the shape of the earth, and orbit of the sun, moon and stars, and of course the election of 2010, who killed JFK, weather Neil Armstrong really walked on the moon. UFOs ( once watched one through binoculars for about 10 minutes). I suspect that Arthur Piver, Jim Brown, Ian Farrier, Roger Simpson, James Wharram, Derick Kelsall, Richard Newick, John Marples, Jesus, and a bunch of others are all alien invaders........ We could have a lot to discuss ;-)

H.W.

Tupaia · 08-05-2021, 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by owly

The "real sailors sail monohulls" crowd will always be with us, but they sound a bit sillier every year.

Yes it is sad but the truth of the matter is that this crowd can't afford a cat and in most cases have never sailed on one.

FuzzyFeat · 08-05-2021, 08:33

I started our as a mono hull sailor, then about thirty years ago I decided to try a multi hull and have not looked back. My current boat is a Witness. Designed by Lock Crowther and built in mid 80's . http://witnesscats.net/ . They have adequate bridge deck clearance, dagger boards and a board up draft of two and a half feet.

Only eight were built and five have survived. One is in Europe and the other New Zealand. My boat, ORYOKI, hull number 6, has pleased my wife and me for over 15 years. The twin diesels have been replaced with steerable 15 hp Honda. A great gunk-holler and a proven ocean cruiser.

We are aging, and some day i may have to let her go, but our hope is that the motion and live-ability of our boat will carry us into our 90's .

Training Wheels · 08-05-2021, 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuzzyFeat

I started our as a mono hull sailor, then about thirty years ago I decided to try a multi hull and have not looked back. My current boat is a Witness. Designed by Lock Crowther and built in mid 80's . http://witnesscats.net/ . They have adequate bridge deck clearance, dagger boards and a board up draft of two and a half feet.

Only eight were built and five have survived. One is in Europe and the other New Zealand. My boat, ORYOKI, hull number 6, has pleased my wife and me for over 15 years. The twin diesels have been replaced with steerable 15 hp Honda. A great gunk-holler and a proven ocean cruiser.

We are aging, and some day i may have to let her go, but our hope is that the motion and live-ability of our boat will carry us into our 90's .

Nice!

smj · 08-05-2021, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuzzyFeat

I started our as a mono hull sailor, then about thirty years ago I decided to try a multi hull and have not looked back. My current boat is a Witness. Designed by Lock Crowther and built in mid 80's . http://witnesscats.net/ . They have adequate bridge deck clearance, dagger boards and a board up draft of two and a half feet.

Only eight were built and five have survived. One is in Europe and the other New Zealand. My boat, ORYOKI, hull number 6, has pleased my wife and me for over 15 years. The twin diesels have been replaced with steerable 15 hp Honda. A great gunk-holler and a proven ocean cruiser.

We are aging, and some day i may have to let her go, but our hope is that the motion and live-ability of our boat will carry us into our 90's .

To say the Witness has “adequate” bridgedeck clearance is a huge understatement! The bridgedeck clearance is unbelievable for this size of cat. Really nice catamaran.

tomtriad · 08-05-2021, 14:59

Look for Eric Lerouge or Richard Woods catamarans in the 35' range. Also Shuttleworth open bridgedeck, maybe with an enclosure. Twin 4 stroke outboards would be good. But keep it light. 4,000 lb is a big payload for any of these. 2,000 is more like it or you will pay with sluggish sailing, hobby horsing, and less of a safety margin. A Walter Greene Even Keel 25 would fill the bill too.

tomtriad · 08-05-2021, 15:03

Look for an Eric Lerouge or Richard Woods catamaran in the 35' range. Also a Greene Even Keel 35, or Shuttleworth. 4,000 lb is too big a payload and will result in poor sailing, hobby horsing, and less safety margin; 2.000 lb is more like it.