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Old 02-05-2020, 04:34   #391
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

OK, take the posted screenshot of cost of cruising, start knocking off marina, restaurants / bar, video software subscriptions, and the other, vet bill, camera, swimwear, entertainment, etc. and you will get closer to what is cutting it to the bone.

However the truth is that’s not sustainable, because of not so minor minor things, like people do wear clothes, and none of their posted cost had any boat maintenance items, electric heater isn’t maintenance and bottom jobs, sails, anchor chains, running and standing rigging costs money, and not trivial money either.
To be realistic they needed to have an entry of $200 to go into maintenance kitty or something, cause to be sustainable you need to either have a pile of money you can draw from, and that’s not sustainable cause that pile gets smaller every time or show a savings fund that goes towards maintenance, cause dinghies need replacing every so often, any motor needs regular oil changes, impellers etc, water pumps wear out and aren’t cheap, the list goes on and on, depending of course on just how low your willing to live, cause you could have a plastic Kayak, no motor of any kind and only jugs of water, no pump, and not need sails or running and standing rigging, cause you never move.
Both SB and I are under the belief that true min budget cruisers do not cruise, cause keeping the boat moving isn’t within the budget, it cost money to use the boat, or you let it run down to eventually it’s worthless and costs more to fix than you have, and then it becomes another derelict in an anchorage full of derelicts, and there is no shortage of those in Florida.
The interesting thing to me is people who post their costs, only post maintenance costs as they occur, none seem to have a savings fund to cover that. My take is that many seem to be cruising on a prayer, and hope nothing big breaks, but then I guess many go through life like that too, and hope that the car never breaks etc.
I guess they run up a credit card bill when things happen?
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Old 02-05-2020, 04:41   #392
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

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OK, take the posted screenshot of cost of cruising, start knocking off marina, restaurants / bar, video software subscriptions, and the other, vet bill, camera, swimwear, entertainment, etc. and you will get closer to what is cutting it to the bone.

However the truth is thatís not sustainable, because of not so minor minor things, like people do wear clothes, and none of their posted cost had any boat maintenance items, electric heater isnít maintenance and bottom jobs, sails, anchor chains, running and standing rigging costs money, and not trivial money either.
To be realistic they needed to have an entry of $200 to go into maintenance kitty or something, cause to be sustainable you need to either have a pile of money you can draw from, and thatís not sustainable cause that pile gets smaller every time or show a savings fund that goes towards maintenance, cause dinghies need replacing every so often, any motor needs regular oil changes, impellers etc, water pumps wear out and arenít cheap, the list goes on and on, depending of course on just how low your willing to live, cause you could have a plastic Kayak, no motor of any kind and only jugs of water, no pump, and not need sails or running and standing rigging, cause you never move.
Both SB and I are under the belief that true min budget cruisers do not cruise, cause keeping the boat moving isnít within the budget, it cost money to use the boat, or you let it run down to eventually itís worthless and costs more to fix than you have, and then it becomes another derelict in an anchorage full of derelicts, and there is no shortage of those in Florida.
The interesting thing to me is people who post their costs, only post maintenance costs as they occur, none seem to have a savings fund to cover that. My take is that many seem to be cruising on a prayer, and hope nothing big breaks, but then I guess many go through life like that too, and hope that the car never breaks etc.
I guess they run up a credit card bill when things happen?

However this couple can apparently afford Marinaís, video editing software, entertainment, can afford a vet for the dog etc., so thatís what cruising costs them.
If they couldnít, then you wouldnít see those things listed, so what it costs them really isnít very relevant.

Now what would be relevant is what does it cost to maintain say an average 40í sailboat in good condition over a sustained period, cause thatís the number you donít have or know. What it costs YOU to live, if you pay attention to where your money goes, you have that number already.
So you already have your living expenses, all you need to know is what does the boat part cost, cause thatís the answer you donít have, but no one ever asks that and I donít know why.

My answer is that it likely costs about $1,000 a month to keep the boat up, in very good condition, not accepting things being broken, but Iíve not tracked it really, but when you amortize big ticket items over time, like sails and bottom jobs, electronics, rigging etc, itís not cheap
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Old 02-05-2020, 05:21   #393
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
OK, take the posted screenshot of cost of cruising, start knocking off marina, restaurants / bar, video software subscriptions, and the other, vet bill, camera, swimwear, entertainment, etc. and you will get closer to what is cutting it to the bone.

However the truth is thatís not sustainable, because of not so minor minor things, like people do wear clothes, and none of their posted cost had any boat maintenance items, electric heater isnít maintenance and bottom jobs, sails, anchor chains, running and standing rigging costs money, and not trivial money either.
I agree - a sustained view is much better than a single data point, which was the original 'ask' of the OP (SailorBoy). But my understanding of the person who posted the screenshot is these YouTube bloggers post their costs monthly so I presume that in months were they incur episodic costs, they list them accurately. Personally, the trend format SB uses is helpful for me to get an idea of where I might seek a lower or higher cost in a given line-item.

Thanks again - Peter
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Old 02-05-2020, 05:46   #394
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
However this couple can apparently afford Marinaís, video editing software, entertainment, can afford a vet for the dog etc., so thatís what cruising costs them.
If they couldnít, then you wouldnít see those things listed, so what it costs them really isnít very relevant.

Now what would be relevant is what does it cost to maintain say an average 40í sailboat in good condition over a sustained period, cause thatís the number you donít have or know. What it costs YOU to live, if you pay attention to where your money goes, you have that number already.
So you already have your living expenses, all you need to know is what does the boat part cost, cause thatís the answer you donít have, but no one ever asks that and I donít know why.

My answer is that it likely costs about $1,000 a month to keep the boat up, in very good condition, not accepting things being broken, but Iíve not tracked it really, but when you amortize big ticket items over time, like sails and bottom jobs, electronics, rigging etc, itís not cheap
That's the thing, many have different standards with boat up keep. I fix before things break, many wait until they break, therefore deferred maintaince costs. I like improving my boat some don't. As mentioned distance traveled makes a difference, thus we need to define long term cruiser, 500nm per year or 5,000nm?

If you want to sit in the boat and go nowhere life can be very cheap, but if you like your boat to be in good condition and you want to see places ,the price will go up.
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Old 02-05-2020, 06:03   #395
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
I agree - a sustained view is much better than a single data point, which was the original 'ask' of the OP (SailorBoy). But my understanding of the person who posted the screenshot is these YouTube bloggers post their costs monthly so I presume that in months were they incur episodic costs, they list them accurately. Personally, the trend format SB uses is helpful for me to get an idea of where I might seek a lower or higher cost in a given line-item.

Thanks again - Peter
Yes that's right. Sometimes they post $2500, sometimes $900.

Picking holes in one screenshot data point is somewhat petty.
One can see it was a lightish month, although they have had lighter, and other months can be more expensive.

The point is that they are out there cruising, doing transatlantics, seeing and doing way more than many of the people posting here (dale excluded...) so it's quite funny for people to say 'it's not sustainable'.

They have already been doing it for some years, on different boats, and are pretty transparent about their costs, including the buying, refitting, and selling part too.

In a video a while back they admitted that buying an older boat and fixing it up probably wasn't as cost effective as they hoped.

The info is there for everyone to check themselves, and will provide some useful help for others here.

Time is better spent checking that than arguing here

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
If you want to sit in the boat and go nowhere life can be very cheap, but if you like your boat to be in good condition and you want to see places ,the price will go up.
Agreed, but this couple definitely aren't doing that (unlike some others here) and they aren't eating rice everyday either, that's why it's interesting.

But enough of MJSailing, they have already had too much free promotion from this

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Old 02-05-2020, 06:40   #396
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

As I (and others) have said, these "here's what I spend" postings are useful, but it's hard to draw direct comparisons. Unless your own cruising life aligns closely with the poster, all you can really do is try and extrapolate to your situation.

Costs will vary considerable based on general lifestyle choices, location, crew size, type of boat, goals/ambitions for cruising, type of sailing you undertake, and a whole slough of other factors. This is why it's hard to find apples-to-apples comparisons.

After five years of calling my boat my only home, where we cruise for about 1/2 the year, I know what it costs for us to do this. I find it a tad presumptuous for some to be telling me I can't do it sustainably this way -- since I am.

I think the best way to know what it will cost YOU to cruise is for YOU to go cruising. These budget threads can give prospective cruisers an idea of the possible ranges, but you'll only know for sure once you've done it for a while. This is why I always advocate moving into this lifestyle gradually.
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:16   #397
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

Low cost cruising update
See post # 144 for initial details

March,Bahamas
Total $2463
Watkins 27

Groceries $313 (all Exuma Market, understand other places are cheaper but these guys provide free water and a dingy dock so figure we'd support them)

Liquor store $79

Dine out $126 (little bars for a burger/beer here and there)

Google Fi phone $130 (this is up as we needed to make calls at .20 cents a minute to make arrangements to haul out the boat for repair, and my wife needed to fly home for a check-up plus airline calls)

Garmin in reach mini $15 (I think I grabbed a couple of weather reports just to try them out at $1 each...usually this is like $13 per month for the service)

Taxi $70 (Georgetown to airport round trip...to far to walk)

Haul out/5 days on hard/splash $834 (needed to fix rudder post leak)

Material/parts $142 (fiberglass, resin, brushes, and misc for rudder post repair)

Plane ticket: $750 (round trip Bahamas to home)

So if things didn't break and wife did not need to fly, and no taxi, March would've been around $630.

Here is April while we are at it.
Total $853

Groceries $ 622 ( we are in lockdown and cannot go ashore for Covid19. Exuma Market made deliveries to your boat, but needed $150 minimum order and there was a $15 delivery charge...I got a little more than normal as I'll be headed out soon)

Liquor store/dining out $0 (all is closed)

Google Fi phone $107 (used a lot more data as we are stuck on the boat)

Garmin in reach mini $13

Diesel $25 (6 gallons delivered by Roston of Valiant Marine Salvage, good dude. Volunteered to deliver fuel, propane, water and do trash pickup at cost for the harbor)

Propane$21

Ebooks $8

Trash pickup/tips to Valiant Marine for pick up $20

Without Covid and being stuck on the boat, would have saved about $60 in deliveries, but would've most likely used that $60 at the liquor store.

The extra 100 or so in groceries most likely would have been spent on dining out, so $853 seems like a good number for the month.

Also, thanks for the kind PMs. I learned a lot from this site before I started so I am trying to "pay it back" per se.

Hope this helps, be safe all.
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:43   #398
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

^^^ That's a nice list, thank you
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:47   #399
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

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Great. It isn't a competition. So provide somebhelp and post your long term category breakdown
I think I've posted this in this thread before but maybe this is more accessible.

Expenses for SV WINGS 2012-2017, two persons. not exactly frugal but we watch it.

Category Avg Month-Annual

Food...……………..$650-$7,804.73
Liqour……………...$125-$1,496.07
Entertainment...$246-$2,957.92
Misc & Cash......$290-$3,483.34
Medical...………..$185- $2,220.85
Fuel...……………….$97- $1,159.62
Moorage...……..$499- $5,982.36
Laundry...………..$29- $348.89
Transportation...$82- $983.36
Fees...…………...$111- $1,328.24
Phone & Internet$73- $880.95
Other...……………..$89- $1,070.44
Boat Maint ……..$897- $10,768.85
Special Expense$481- $5,773.97
Business Expenses$2- $21.16
Cash to Next Mo.$87- $1,040.93

…………...$3,943.47- $47,321.68

We've kept extremely detailed records for the last 25 years of cruising (and 34 years of ownership of this boat). This total above is for the last four years for which we've totalled it up. The cruising area covered is Caribbean, Central America, and Mexico. Several other years in other areas (Hong Kong, for example) were much more expensive, over 2-3 as much, due to higher cost of living and due to major refits of the boat (three times in 25 years). I can breakdown or give details of any of these categories for anyone who is curious.

During this period we lived in marinas about 75% of the year. We don't think we are low budget cruisers, some of our expenses above could be cut by someone who is more limited in their budget, but we'd caution potential cruisers who think they can cruise full time and spend only a tiny amount.

We know some liveaboards, who do minimal cruising, anchor out always, and get by on less than $1500 month. They have very basic lifestyles.

Mike is an exception, and frankly I don't know exactly how they do it, but, congratulations.

Some of the ways other have proposed to reduce the cost are not totally realistic. For example.

Preventative maintenance does not keep things from breaking. This month I spent $600 for regulators and alternator. No preventive maintenance would avoid that. This year we've had to replace the rear main seal on our Yanmar and replace two corroded and leaking water tanks, both were major expenses. Sails need to be replaced, not because they are out of shape but because the cloth gets old and they fall apart. Buying used is not often possible. So boat maintenance is expensive and mostly unavoidable.

Living in developing countries is a possibility but in reality, few people stay full time in the third world for more than a few months or a year or so. Not saying some don't but it is not typical so your costs will go up when you move on.

We too had a planned budget of, get this, $600/month when we started cruising. No justification, just hope and dreams. It didn't work out for us.
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Old 02-05-2020, 08:25   #400
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

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It's all in the accounting. Some pay beforehand; some pay along the way; some pay when they sell.

Everything was checked off our to-do list before we set sail from the US in 2012. We needed very, very little during the first three years of cruising (still somehow averaged $200 a month). During that time we went from the Great Lakes, down the East Coast of the US, through the Caribbean as far East as Guatemala, across the Atlantic twice and back up to Florida..... thousands of miles with no major mechanical issues. And when we listed the boat for sale in the US, we sold it to the first person to come look at it.

We've done pretty much the same thing with out new boat. Everything was replaced before we left and have needed very few things in the past years.

Matt
In regards to Sailing MJ's maintenance. Matt's already posted several times to this thread back when it still made even a drop of sense.

I for one like people who post numbers rather than poo-poo speculation. You gotta have some basis for information before you can even begin to ask the right questions. The broader the sample the more realistic your expectations/dreams/plans are going to beóand if you are the kind of person to take one stranger's single post on the internet as gospel truth then well...
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Old 02-05-2020, 13:45   #401
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

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However this couple can apparently afford Marinaís, video editing software, entertainment, can afford a vet for the dog etc., so thatís what cruising costs them.
If they couldnít, then you wouldnít see those things listed, so what it costs them really isnít very relevant.

Now what would be relevant is what does it cost to maintain say an average 40í sailboat in good condition over a sustained period, cause thatís the number you donít have or know. What it costs YOU to live, if you pay attention to where your money goes, you have that number already.
So you already have your living expenses, all you need to know is what does the boat part cost, cause thatís the answer you donít have, but no one ever asks that and I donít know why.

My answer is that it likely costs about $1,000 a month to keep the boat up, in very good condition, not accepting things being broken, but Iíve not tracked it really, but when you amortize big ticket items over time, like sails and bottom jobs, electronics, rigging etc, itís not cheap
I reckon $1,000pm is a pretty reasonable number for keeping the boat in good condition long term.

I have got a bit of a spreadsheet going for mine and that's pretty much where mine ends up. Its an evolving document and Im dialing it in more all the time. I make a lot of 'assumptions' with mine which can all vary this wildly. Like-
Replacing Engine $12k and Electrical refit every 12 years. 15 yrs for an Electronics refit.
Sails 6, running rigging 5, standing 10, haul out bottom job 2 etc.

I put my Replacement cost / how many years I expect to last = yearly cost. I then sum all that to get my annual cost.

More regular Servicing like Engine oil and filters, water maker filters etc are a lot easier to track as they come up more often. Ie I replace annually zincs, racors, oil filter, impeller is $178 etc.

Mine is bigger than 40, closer to 50, and I havent skimped with mod cons.

Many people fail to consider these costs in boat ownership.

I pretty much do everything myself. Paying others will obviously cost lots more.

I agree with your comment about either keeping it as it should be or running it into a negitive equity liability.

We all see these boats that can only be maybe sold as a project boat. The owners often still think their value is as a well maintained boat value.

Then add your monthy living costs- food, fuel, insurance, cell phone, etc
$3-3.4k/mth average comfortable cruising
$1.5k budget cruising
$1k bare bones
$0.5k yacht squatting.

Id say these numbers are reasonably representitive of what I experience myself and hear from other cruisers.
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Old 02-05-2020, 18:17   #402
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

we've been at sea for 4 years now. We have spent almost 1000 nights of that on the hook. We only use marinas when we are forced to.

The only cost worth discussing is boat maintenance. Food, booze entertainment, rental cars, flying somewhere costs what it costs and while you can cut down on these, you still need to eat etc.

$1,000 per month is a little optimistic if you are cruising as we are (30Knm in 4 years). WE're just now spending $16k on a totally new rig (old one is 15 years old). We do preventive maintenance as much as we can on the boat, but when things break down - they break down.

Our average monthly expenditures are $4k. These include, boat insurance, health insurance etc. Those costs run about $11k per year.
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Old 02-05-2020, 19:04   #403
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

Carsten, your an outlier.
Only rarely is budget cruiser and circumnavigation used in the same sentence.
The grand I threw out was just a guess, I’ve honestly not tracked it, I save up and it costs what it costs, and every time I fix or replace something, I try to go with high end stuff.

However I could go the low buck route, instead of replacing, I could do more fixing, I could do my own sail repairs etc.

Oh, and preventative maintenance can in fact keep most things from breaking, that’s the basis of aircraft maintenance, you determine overhaul / replacement schedules for any critical item, that alternator could have been overhauled before failure.
However it’s most often not a way to save money though, “on condition” maintenance is most often less expensive than TBO. Think of having new tires out on your car every 10,000 miles as opposed to buying new only when the are worn out.
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Old 02-05-2020, 19:10   #404
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

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Carsten, your an outlier.
Only rarely is budget cruiser and circumnavigation used in the same sentence.
The grand I threw out was just a guess, Iíve honestly not tracked it, I save up and it costs what it costs, and every time I fix or replace something, I try to go with high end stuff.

However I could go the low buck route, instead of replacing, I could do more fixing, I could do my own sail repairs etc.

Oh, and preventative maintenance can in fact keep most things from breaking, thatís the basis of aircraft maintenance, you determine overhaul / replacement schedules for any critical item, that alternator could have been overhauled before failure.
However itís most often not a way to save money though, ďon conditionĒ maintenance is most often less expensive than TBO. Think of having new tires out on your car every 10,000 miles as opposed to buying new only when the are worn out.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that costs are dependent on amount of nm sailed - just as with a car - drive 10k miles per year and you have X costs. Drive 100k miles per year and your costs are vastly different.

food, booze, entertainment are individual - some eat meat - some don't. some drink booze - some don't. some smoke - some don't. all individual choices. these expenses are variable and can be controlled - boat maintenance and repairs are more difficult
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Old 02-05-2020, 19:35   #405
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Re: Low Cost Cruising Details

Just remember that expenses do not equal budget. You need to budget as in save up for those big ticket items.
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