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Old 14-10-2019, 10:47   #226
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

[QUOTE=contrail;2996424I gave you some detailed information which you stated that you chose not to read, .[/QUOTE]

yes you gave "answers" that just outlined the standard storyline "reasons", but which don't stand well in the light of reasoning

the only real answer is "because they can" and the reason they can is because boaters don't have a choice
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Old 14-10-2019, 11:23   #227
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Your reasoning is just off. Look at your comment on charging on boat length. Sure there may be some other way to do it, but seems like boat length is a decent proxy. You seem to wish that each boat be put in a vacuum and pay based on energy consumed in maintaining that stasis. Yes, people charge on what the market will bear, but bottom line the average live about costs more to accommodate. Parking is a great example. You may not have a car there, but assuming you do, is $1 per day, or 30 per month reasonable? Given that waterfront land is generally the most expensive, and 150 spots per acre (which is high density, after maintenance and insurance and taxes, you might make 10-15% return on your investment. All of those things add up. And while you may never have seen a bad live aboard, Iíve seen plenty. Fine folks maybe, but resource users and the ones likely to be difficult and often trashy. If marinas were raking it in the way some think, thereíd be a lot more private equity and hedge funds owning them.
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Old 14-10-2019, 11:32   #228
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Sure there may be some other way to do it, but seems like boat length is a decent proxy.
Does public storage charge you by the amount of stuff you keep in your unit?

Slips are a given size. If the slip can only accommodate one boat, does the size of the boat make a difference?

A 24 ft cruiser in a 35 ft slip uses the exact same space and resources as a 35 ft boat in the same slip.

That's the point of view you're disagreeing with, and it is a valid point of view.
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Old 14-10-2019, 11:37   #229
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Your reasoning is just off. Look at your comment on charging on boat length. Sure there may be some other way to do it, but seems like boat length is a decent proxy.
So you think it "fair" to marina owners or boaters to "charge by the foot"? So think it's fair for a 30' to pay less to take up same space as a 45' boat (the slip length where I'm currently at). Or that the marina that built and paid for building the 45' slip should only charge for 30'?

It's only "fair" to the 30' boat owners thinking because they get a lower price. But that's not the same as "fair".

And of course there's a better way to do it. You pay for the resources you use. Be it slip length, water, electric, trash, showers etc., it's just more trouble. But I have been to places that a slip was a slip and you paid for metered electric and water, trash by the bag, and for showers by the minute.
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Old 14-10-2019, 13:04   #230
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

You know fair doesnít have anything to do with it.
An owner of anything can and should be able to charge anything they want to to rent whatever it is they have for rent, the market will set what they can get.
Life isnít fair, for anyone who is over 30 who thinks it is, is either a fool or a trust fund baby.

Now to make myself clear, in places that have ďrent controlĒ etc. I donít think that is fair either, and surely must lead to a building becoming run down and not a place Iíd want to live either, but Iíve never lived where such a thing exists, but I predict as soon as such nonsense starts in Marinaís, you can kiss them good bye, cause they arenít a good investment anymore.
If your on a fixed income and rent has risen to more than you can afford, tough, you get to move or live on the street or whatever.
Thatís life, and itís not fair.

If you canít afford the price of slips where you want to stay, tough. Move somewhere else or take a job to pay for it.
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Old 14-10-2019, 13:16   #231
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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You know fair doesnít have anything to do with it.
that's true and where liveaboard fees fall into
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Old 14-10-2019, 13:25   #232
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Life isnít fair, for anyone who is over 30 who thinks it is, is either a fool or a trust fund baby.
Know your audience. Look around you. This is, seriously, the mecca of trust fund babies. There's nothing wrong with being comfortably off because your parents or their parents had good fortune.

It's like you're blaming people who don't have to worry about money for.... worrying about money.
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Old 14-10-2019, 14:28   #233
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

So, if you accept life is not fair, businesses are free to charge capriciously, what the market will bear, then why keep complaining?

And you say, boaters have no choice? Wut?

Just go live elsewhere!
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Old 14-10-2019, 14:46   #234
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
You know fair doesnít have anything to do with it.
An owner of anything can and should be able to charge anything they want to to rent whatever it is they have for rent, the market will set what they can get.
Life isnít fair, for anyone who is over 30 who thinks it is, is either a fool or a trust fund baby.

Now to make myself clear, in places that have ďrent controlĒ etc. I donít think that is fair either, and surely must lead to a building becoming run down and not a place Iíd want to live either, but Iíve never lived where such a thing exists, but I predict as soon as such nonsense starts in Marinaís, you can kiss them good bye, cause they arenít a good investment anymore.
If your on a fixed income and rent has risen to more than you can afford, tough, you get to move or live on the street or whatever.
Thatís life, and itís not fair.

If you canít afford the price of slips where you want to stay, tough. Move somewhere else or take a job to pay for it.
I've mentioned this before, the exception is when the marina was built with public funds, often on land condemned from private owners, and often operated by port or municipal authorities. In that case they should be expected to provide the service for the public at something like what it costs, not like what the traffic will bear.

It is not generally possible to justify the liveaboard fees as actually incurred on behalf of the liveaboard. An example is garbage collection. When one looks at the total cost to the marina of garbage collection, and tries to determine how much is caused but the amount of extra garbage deposited by liveaboards, you find that it is almost unmeasurable. Yet I've seen liveaboard fees broken down to separate components, and garbage has been shown at $15/month. It didn't cost that much.

In many locations the marinas are public operations. They should not be trying to make a profit.

In Seattle the Corp of Engineers built a very nice marina on land allocated by the US Congress, (after condemning it from private waterfront owners.) Later the Port of Seattle attempted to justify marina and liveaboard rates based on a return on investment for the value of the waterfront and the value of the upland facilities.

But the obvious answer was, "The Congress and the Corp of Engineers didn't give you this marina to make a profit, they gave it to you to operate as a public facility."

So let the private marinas charge what they can get away with, but the public ones need to be "Fair".
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Old 14-10-2019, 15:08   #235
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

I think it’s fair to charge by length of the boat, not that fair matters. Larger boats tend to use more resources, and marina revenues are based on boat sizes. More often the determination of where a boat can fit is beam, but again in monos there is a general ratio. To try and do what you say is impractical on a boat by boat basis for many reasons, primarily the cost of doing that outweighs any benefits. It’s also really difficult since the marinas vendors don’t charge them that way. I pay about $16 per month for trash service at my home. Most weeks I have a small bag. A neighbor with 3 kids might fill it up. The truck comes either way. Same thing for a marina dumpster.

Personally I don’t get all whining - it’s capitalism. And the one thing a liveaboard has is the ability to move your home.
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Old 14-10-2019, 15:57   #236
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Judging by your reluctance to accept any of the reasons given, you may well use 40% more resources, one of them being the staff's time! Remember, part of the expense of allowing liveaboards is managing them. You live in a marina where you say that no nonsense is going on (currently). Might that be because the management is doing a good job managing any potential problem? And, if so, might there not be a security cost involved? You seem absolutely unwilling to consider this, and deem yourself the typical liveaboard, which in some ways you are and in some ways are not. And, I can assure you, that there are plenty of disastrous liveaboard situations, usually prevented by firm policies, even those gently administered. The fact that you have never seen them may be because you don't want to, or because the establishments you have frequented have understood how to manage them. And, listen, I have long been a liveaboard. In the eighties, I lived in a marina in the SF Bay area, that had fully legal liveaboards, for which we paid a premium. Almost all the liveaboards were pretty well established people who had good jobs, some owning their own companies. There were 40 slips, each of which had it's own sewage piping and hose that was attached to each boat's pump out deck fitting so no sewage went into the water. When you went sailing, you simply unscrewed it. Our water and electric were included in the liveaboard fee. The whole thing had gone through 32 local and state agencies and committees, in order to be totally approved. There was enough parking for everyone to have a slot. Think that all came free? As expensive as it was, it was still a great deal and they had a two year waiting list. And, guess what? It was all very orderly and neat with no liveaboard abuse. Not far away there was another marina, completely opposite in it's approach. Cheap, lots of liveaboards, lots of junk, minimal heads, etc etc. They had an informal "yacht club", including burgees. It was called the Poop Lagoon yacht club. I could go on with other examples, but in the end, you pays your money and you takes your choice. The marina that I managed had eighteen toilets and nine urinals, all cleaned multiple times a day, to handle the traffic, and three parking lots. Think that was cheap to maintain? And what group do you think required the most immediate response if something malfunctioned? Yep, you guessed it, and let me add that I thought they were perfectly justified, because their boats were their homes. But, we were not inexpensive. You usually get what you pay for. It sounds like you have.
Contrail, You are being a bit disingenuous about this; that the liveaboard's extra costs justify the fees.

The only real justification for $150-200 month, or more, is that the marina owner CAN.

Marina managements often claim, as you just have, that the liveaboards use more water, or cause more mess in the toilets and showers, or that parking should be worth so much a day, or are a burden on the staff or security, and therefore the liveaboard fees are justifiable.

But if pressed to demonstrate those extra costs, the math does not work. I have never seen the costs broken down objectively in a way that comes up equal to the fees, and I've been in that fight. I mentioned garbage a couple of comments ago. But take water usage. Look at the marina's water bill, divide it by the number of customers, then increase the liveaboard's share due to, oh I don't know, whatever people think that a liveaboard uses more than a weekender, and you'd find it was cents per month. Or parking: the parking lots at marinas are usually almost empty on weekday nights, occupied only by cars of liveaboards or cruisers who are gone on trips. When they are filled to capacity is on holiday weekends when every boat owner has come to the marina and take their boats out. So which tenant incurs the cost of parking to the marina? The marina has to have enough parking for the peaks, the liveaboard is using extra capacity. Staff burden? Oh my poor baby, you actually are being asked to attend to the jobs you're hired to do? How is this an extra cost to the Marina? Would you be able to fire that staff if there liveaboard wasn't there?

No, the justification is solely that "THEY CAN". Based on costs, it does not add up.
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Old 14-10-2019, 16:06   #237
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Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
I've mentioned this before, the exception is when the marina was built with public funds, often on land condemned from private owners, and often operated by port or municipal authorities. In that case they should be expected to provide the service for the public at something like what it costs, not like what the traffic will bear.



It is not generally possible to justify the liveaboard fees as actually incurred on behalf of the liveaboard. An example is garbage collection. When one looks at the total cost to the marina of garbage collection, and tries to determine how much is caused but the amount of extra garbage deposited by liveaboards, you find that it is almost unmeasurable. Yet I've seen liveaboard fees broken down to separate components, and garbage has been shown at $15/month. It didn't cost that much.



In many locations the marinas are public operations. They should not be trying to make a profit.



In Seattle the Corp of Engineers built a very nice marina on land allocated by the US Congress, (after condemning it from private waterfront owners.) Later the Port of Seattle attempted to justify marina and liveaboard rates based on a return on investment for the value of the waterfront and the value of the upland facilities.



But the obvious answer was, "The Congress and the Corp of Engineers didn't give you this marina to make a profit, they gave it to you to operate as a public facility."



So let the private marinas charge what they can get away with, but the public ones need to be "Fair".


Have you known of any government enterprise to be run efficiently?
Then most likely they have no idea what it costs to run the marina, itís fees are dumped right into their downtown parks costs and the basketball courts etc, and I can assure you itís all run at a loss, cause if there were a profit, then another manager is hired.
Havenít you heard that every single mooring field in Fl loses money, cause they canít make money only charging $25 a day for a mooring.
I donít see how you canít make money on that.

We were in the Panama City, City marina for a couple of years, and it was obvious that soon, very soon it was going to be acquired by a private concern and developed into Condominiums, because the other City owned Marina had already gone that way.
Hurricane Michael destroyed it so I assume that made the decision easy.
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Old 14-10-2019, 16:37   #238
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Contrail, You are being a bit disingenuous about this; that the liveaboard's extra costs justify the fees.

The only real justification for $150-200 month, or more, is that the marina owner CAN.

Marina managements often claim, as you just have, that the liveaboards use more water, or cause more mess in the toilets and showers, or that parking should be worth so much a day, or are a burden on the staff or security, and therefore the liveaboard fees are justifiable.

But if pressed to demonstrate those extra costs, the math does not work. I have never seen the costs broken down objectively in a way that comes up equal to the fees, and I've been in that fight. I mentioned garbage a couple of comments ago. But take water usage. Look at the marina's water bill, divide it by the number of customers, then increase the liveaboard's share due to, oh I don't know, whatever people think that a liveaboard uses more than a weekender, and you'd find it was cents per month. Or parking: the parking lots at marinas are usually almost empty on weekday nights, occupied only by cars of liveaboards or cruisers who are gone on trips. When they are filled to capacity is on holiday weekends when every boat owner has come to the marina and take their boats out. So which tenant incurs the cost of parking to the marina? The marina has to have enough parking for the peaks, the liveaboard is using extra capacity. Staff burden? Oh my poor baby, you actually are being asked to attend to the jobs you're hired to do? How is this an extra cost to the Marina? Would you be able to fire that staff if there liveaboard wasn't there?

No, the justification is solely that "THEY CAN". Based on costs, it does not add up.
You seem to think the entire world should be on a cost plus basis? Apple should have to provide you a parts, overhead, and R&D breakdown to justify the cost of an iPhone? Restaurants should have to justify their food costs, spoilage, salaries, and overhead with every menu choice? Authors should have to provide you their per book royalties and justify them based on how hard they worked on every book you read? Seems a pretty dystopian requirement that customers demand they justify every line item of their cost to customers, is this just a requirement you advocate for Marina's, because somehow they shouldn't be part of the free market?
To be honest some customers are more of a PITA then they're worth and most of us who've run businesses have had the experience of firing such customers. Until we hit some kind of marina glut, the live aboard folks demanding line by line justification for rates definitely fall into the category of customers worth firing and replacing with the next person in line who understands basic micro economics.
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Old 14-10-2019, 16:38   #239
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

I’m in a municipal marina. The basic costs are low. But it still has the live aboard fee and for a 40’ boat it equals a 40% price adder. They want live aboards here apparently and advertise on bannered type on web home page. Yet there are only about 6-8 live aboard boats here and the marina is less than half full.

The total price per month is ok, but really there’s no way to say it is justified to charge 40% more.
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Old 14-10-2019, 16:44   #240
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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So you think it "fair" to marina owners or boaters to c? So think it's fair for a 30' to pay less to take up same space as a 45' boat (the slip length where I'm currently at). Or that the marina that built and paid for building the 45' slip should only charge for 30'?

It's only "fair" to the 30' boat owners thinking because they get a lower price. But that's not the same as "fair".

I feel that "charge by the foot" is mostly fair in the case of our marina where we have 30', 40' and 50'+ fingers with appropriate increases in beam accomodation. There is only room for a couple more feet than the fingers except for the outside 50'+ slips. I pay $300 for the 30' slip + $12/ft for the extra 2' I hang into the fairway. However, if my boat was 35', I would have to pay $400 for a 40' slip. I would have to pay an additional $12/ft ($384) if I stayed more than 3 days a week onboard. Our marina is the only one on the Island that "allows" liveaboards and there is usually a waiting list..
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