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Old 18-08-2019, 02:54   #211
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
While there isn't a huge difference in cost in general terms, you are cherry picking locations. You can find far cheaper options in the USA and far more expensive options in Europe.

Once you account for similar availability and desirability, it's pretty close to the same prices.
Absolutely not so. All one needs to do is avoid expensive marinas in Palma, Mallorca, Porto Cervo Sardinia, Monte Carlo and Dubrovnik, Croatia, then the costs here in the Med are substantially less than anywhere in North America that we’ve traveled. Which include the West coast, all of California, New England and up into Nova Scotia, Canada.
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Old 18-08-2019, 02:58   #212
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Does anybody have recommendations for any affordable (and I mean really affordable) marinas in Portugal? It could have a bearing on which area in we choose to buy a small(ish) house.
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Old 12-10-2019, 17:51   #213
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

I find that the liveaboard fees, mine is about $150/month too is to help pay for amenities. WE have a heated pool, dog park, park with a grill station, nice showers and laundry area, plus a restaurant. The upkeep is wonderful and the place is quite clean. So I see it as a usage fee.
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Old 13-10-2019, 08:59   #214
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Simply put: Live aboard fees are the modest price one pays for the privilege of calling the marina your home, which is separate and apart from the privilege of the marina being the home for your boat.
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Old 13-10-2019, 11:53   #215
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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I find that the liveaboard fees, mine is about $150/month too is to help pay for amenities. WE have a heated pool, dog park, park with a grill station, nice showers and laundry area, plus a restaurant. The upkeep is wonderful and the place is quite clean. So I see it as a usage fee.
Im currently paying $200/mo. There's no pool, store, restaurant, clubhouse, grill area, picnic area, courtesy car or bikes. There is a shower I've used once in 2.5 months and a coin operated laundry. My air conditioner has been running the same amount as the non-liveaboard boats. I use 50 gal of water every 5-7 days, which is probably the same as the powerboater next to ne that shows up on weekend and washes his boat for 2 hours.
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Old 13-10-2019, 12:24   #216
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

You can liveaboard at my current marina up in Lewistporte, NL (April to October). Thereís a store, restaurant (nearby), clubhouse, grill area, picnic area, courtesy bikes, showers, laundry. Water and electricity all included. Extra cost: $0.00 .

The reason you folks are getting these extra charges is because the market will bear it. If you donít feel youíre getting value for the money, and donít want to pay it, then there are plenty of places in the world you can go. But you may have to go a bit further off the beaten path.
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Old 13-10-2019, 19:03   #217
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Yes, the surcharge does not need to be justified by any extra costs, that's not how a free market works.

The business is free to base pricing on value value received. Does not need to be real value either, perceived value is enough.

They could base it on the value of the boat if the market would support that, charge a lot more for old cheap boats than shiny new ones.

Whatever, take it or leave. . .
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Old 13-10-2019, 20:44   #218
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Sorry to say liveaboards CAN be a problem and more costly. I lived aboard in Marina del Rey and it was hard to get permission as they restrict the number at each marina. I asked why? The answer was simple. Liveaboards do use the trash more often. Liveaboards do use more water. Some Liveaboards spread out onto the docks. I mean some use the docks to store their personal items they don't want on their boats like kayaks, paddle boards, etc. Liveaboards do use facilities more often. Not just the laundry but the heads. When was the last time you as a liveaboard cleaned the public facility? Liveaboards can spread out as the living space becomes filled up. Liveaboards do a lot of work on their boats besides cleaning and washing them. I have seen a liveaboard build shelves on the docks! He had lumber, saw horses, and electric tools spread out over the dock. Marinas are not boat yards.

I have mentioned all the negatives> While I have never seen all these by one owner, I have seen all these over the years. In Marina Del Rey it was a 35% premium for living aboard. It is a fact of life. If you like living aboard then pay the fee.

BINGO!!!


Having, at one time in my life, been in marina management, these are EXACTLY the reasons. SB1, you wanted something other than "because they can" and you just got the list. Plus one more thing that I only saw mentioned in one other reply (could be more that I missed) and that is parking. How much does a parking spot cost? Often on a prime piece of real estate? Is a portion of $150 per month so exorbitant? And how about the annoyance of a liveaboard who thinks one of the limited parking spaces is "theirs" and who gets upset about it? As a general matter, the average liveaboard uses more, uses more of the staff's time, and in many other ways is a more costly customer to deal with. None of us who live aboard feel that applies to us, individually (I have also lived aboard in marinas 16 years, as a customer, in various locales), and maybe it doesn't, but it certainly applies to the average liveaboard, and that's how costs are calculated. And, not to let you in on a secret, or anything, but regardless of the occasional, and much ballyhooed volunteer help and security that liveaboards CAN contribute, on balance, a liveaboard is much more of a burden than a benefit. And, for that, there is a cost. This, much more than the "because they can", is the business justification. Been there, done that, on both sides of the fence.
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Old 14-10-2019, 06:41   #219
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Yet I've been in my current marina and haven't seen 1 liveaboard doing any of that negative "stuff". In fact I don't think I've even been in a marina that had that going on. Having a "liveaboard" isn't an excuse for the marina not enforcing the marina rules, or is it? The mistake in these arguments is to mistake a liveaboard is just a bum living on a boat. Same stereotype as "anchor outs" face and why all the anchoring laws get proposed.

The liveaboard fee is just part of the "because" world of boating right up there with the "per foot" charging system.

My current liveaboard fee is 40% of my total slip charge. Am I really using up 40% more "resources" that the weekend boater or the boater staying only 10 nights/month on the boat? And the marina is only 1/4 full so I'm not even sucking up an overpriced transient slip.
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Old 14-10-2019, 08:04   #220
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Judging by your reluctance to accept any of the reasons given, you may well use 40% more resources, one of them being the staff's time! Remember, part of the expense of allowing liveaboards is managing them. You live in a marina where you say that no nonsense is going on (currently). Might that be because the management is doing a good job managing any potential problem? And, if so, might there not be a security cost involved? You seem absolutely unwilling to consider this, and deem yourself the typical liveaboard, which in some ways you are and in some ways are not. And, I can assure you, that there are plenty of disastrous liveaboard situations, usually prevented by firm policies, even those gently administered. The fact that you have never seen them may be because you don't want to, or because the establishments you have frequented have understood how to manage them. And, listen, I have long been a liveaboard. In the eighties, I lived in a marina in the SF Bay area, that had fully legal liveaboards, for which we paid a premium. Almost all the liveaboards were pretty well established people who had good jobs, some owning their own companies. There were 40 slips, each of which had it's own sewage piping and hose that was attached to each boat's pump out deck fitting so no sewage went into the water. When you went sailing, you simply unscrewed it. Our water and electric were included in the liveaboard fee. The whole thing had gone through 32 local and state agencies and committees, in order to be totally approved. There was enough parking for everyone to have a slot. Think that all came free? As expensive as it was, it was still a great deal and they had a two year waiting list. And, guess what? It was all very orderly and neat with no liveaboard abuse. Not far away there was another marina, completely opposite in it's approach. Cheap, lots of liveaboards, lots of junk, minimal heads, etc etc. They had an informal "yacht club", including burgees. It was called the Poop Lagoon yacht club. I could go on with other examples, but in the end, you pays your money and you takes your choice. The marina that I managed had eighteen toilets and nine urinals, all cleaned multiple times a day, to handle the traffic, and three parking lots. Think that was cheap to maintain? And what group do you think required the most immediate response if something malfunctioned? Yep, you guessed it, and let me add that I thought they were perfectly justified, because their boats were their homes. But, we were not inexpensive. You usually get what you pay for. It sounds like you have.
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Old 14-10-2019, 08:45   #221
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Judging by your reluctance to accept any of the reasons given, you may well use 40% more resources, one of them being the staff's time!.
Oh give me a freaking break!!!!!

The only one's time I take up is the office women's when I go in to pay my dockage who otherwise is sitting around so lonely it's hard to get back out the door.

Didn't read the rest long no break rant as I was pretty sure how it would go.
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Old 14-10-2019, 09:54   #222
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

I thought this might be your answer. I gave you some detailed information which you stated that you chose not to read, but we all have read all your questions and have tried to give you answers, in my case as a long time liveaboard with significant time in marinas, and also as a former manager. So I will leave you with the thought that the woman in the office probably does have stuff she needs to do and is polite, which you chose to interpret as her, being lonely. Best of luck.
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Old 14-10-2019, 10:10   #223
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Interesting attempt to make the case for liveaboard fees.

Sometimes people are bad. It can be a liveaboard that sprawls onto the dock, or it can be the derelict owner that is never there and the boat sinks in the slip. Which type is going to cost more money?

The fact of the matter is that marinas can charge liveaboards more and they'll pay. Even if the liveaboards all always left the marina in better condition and used less resources and didn't have cars or ever cause a smidge of trouble, they'd still be charged more. Because they'll pay.

So while I respect the view points of both sides, I think it is all down to good ole supply and demand.

And supply is shrinking. Look at how many places are taking over anchorages in favor of "mooring fields". Guess what, even a mooring ball comes with a liveaboard fee in many places.

I'm hoping that demand eventually shrinks. Maybe cruising will get less popular with millenials and the boomers will die off and hurricanes will wreck enough boats that things won't be so contentious. Maybe one day a cruising sailor that lives aboard will be seen as an oddity instead of a nuisance. But that is just a dream.

I think the future is charging higher liveaboard fees. More regulation. I think the future is pushing the "middle class" out of cruising. You'll need either a million plus dollar yacht or some sort of derelict that you don't care about legally or materially. For us folks in the middle, the cost of living aboard legally will cease to be financially feasible in any populated place on the eastern or western sea boards.

There are still reasonable places to cruise as a liveaboard, like the gulf. But the message is loud and clear. Southern FL and Northern Cailfornia frown upon the non-rich yachting community. And they can.
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Old 14-10-2019, 10:18   #224
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Does anyone notice the anti live aboard sentiment is almost always about 80% to do with California? In my experience here in Texas I too have not witnessed all these negative issues with live aboards either. Their boats are some of the nicest in the marina, no laundry and or junk on the docks. I did see I guy this weekend with a saw building something but he was just a weekender, so much for that theory. And the other month while in the marina office I felt like I was never going to get out of there between the office lady and the owner of the marina. Both super nice, but I had things to do.
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Old 14-10-2019, 10:23   #225
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Yes, seems mainly California, but with a lot of east coast Florida in there too.
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