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Old 16-08-2019, 12:36   #196
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Like I said above, that's not always the case.

So, for those marinas, and there are many, which were built, or allowed on public lands, for the "public good", then cost should come into play.
Yes, not always.

But "should" does not mean "does" in reality.

Our economy is full of "public" assets allocated to private operators who "capture" the bureacracy to ensure zero regulatory oversight to protect the public interest.

In the US, it takes a **lot** of public agitation to try to change that systemic flaw in our systems, and even if it succeeds, give it a few years or decades and everything reverts back to the hegemony of the corrupting influence of money.

Especially true in recent years even at the federal level, in topic areas about which the majority of citizens actually care very deeply.
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Old 16-08-2019, 18:20   #197
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Is it really??????????????????



I own a 3 nice bedroom house in Jacksonville Fl that I rent out to my daughter form $500/mo and it costs about $150 for electric and water for the month. So that's $650/mo.



I really haven't found boat living to be less than land living. If anything the last 3 years I think it has been more to live on a boat. My house was pay off and the utilities and association fee were around $350/mo and it didn't need $500 in maintenance and repair each month.
What is market rate for a comparable home in Jacksonville?
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Old 16-08-2019, 19:36   #198
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

The truth of the matter is that liveaboards are considred a pain in the ass, so they make you pay extra to discourage you from taking up residence in their marina.
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Old 17-08-2019, 01:02   #199
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by Dan Mosby View Post
The truth of the matter is that liveaboards are considred a pain in the ass, so they make you pay extra to discourage you from taking up residence in their marina.
Call me nave, but I don't understand the problem they have. The boat occupies the same berth whether the owner is on board or not. Any utilities used are paid for (electricity, water, fuel, garbage disposal, etc.). Presumably, while there, the boat owner will also make use of the marina restaurant and bar, thereby also providing even more profit for the marina.
Of course, there should be a certain code of behaviour, such that the boat owner treats the marina with the same respect he'd treat his home, ie., no mess outside the boat, keep the berth area clear of tools, parts, rubbish, etc., and general respect for others in the marina.

And if the marina chooses to charge a 'little' more, that would be acceptable, I suppose, but charging extra to discourage living aboard seems weird - again, I may be nave, and I don't yet have a lot of experience with marinas and none with USA marinas.
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Old 17-08-2019, 09:33   #200
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Yes the few that do not follow your "code of behaviour" ruin it for the rest of us.

The wealthier customers that (the owner thinks) bring the highest profits, do not like to see riff raff.

Of course the issues could be managed in other ways, but the path of least resistance for marinas that can afford to, is to get rid of the option.

In the meantime collecting more money from those willing to pay it.
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Old 17-08-2019, 11:24   #201
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

just spiralling deeper into random stereotype answers I see, ones that paint boaters in a bad light there are mostly spread by other boaters
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Old 17-08-2019, 14:40   #202
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Just catching up on all this babbling. Two things strike me. The whole premise of this thread is that there is a fair or proper price that liveaboards should be charged. Again, this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of capitalism. Products and services are priced at what the market will bear. They are only loosely related to input costs, and certainly have nothing to do with fairness.

Secondly, this apparent problem of suffering liveaboard fees seems to be related to population density and location. I have never, ever, paid a liveaboard fee. I've never heard of such a thing being charged. I certainly liveaboard, whether I'm at the dock or swinging from my anchor (like now).

So maybe the real answer is to move.
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Old 17-08-2019, 15:48   #203
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

I think there is a number of good reasons not to like cruisers and live-aboards.


So, when a marina is private, nobody will stop the owner from telling if and who is admitted. Nor from making special fee structures that reflect financial and otherwise considerations of providing SERVICES to cruisers or to live-aboards.


However, there are very many people, and the land (and water) are scarce goods. So, to me, the problem arises when a public good is being converted into a private enterprise and THEN some of the users are PUSHED OUT from the picture.


These people could just move on and do their thing elsewhere IF there were ample land and water. But there are not (not in areas where our living aboard life style became an issue).


It is like one is telling a vagabundo she or he cannot sleep in a public park. Notice he or she telling this is VERY OFTEN an officer paid from public money - a police officer e.g. If you consider yourself a middle class person, you have employed this officer to pester that (poor) fellow citizen.



Now this is how the "wealthy" (=overdraft) and wealthy (=rich) parts of the society pester and limit the limited already life choices of the non-indebted minorities. We let ourselves pester the poor because they are few and weak. We let ourselves pester the live-aboard minority because they are few and less indebted than us. (No, they are not poor - they have their boats and their lives, few other people can claim this much).



It is what the pecking order is, the rich have their golf courses and yachts, the "rich" have their mortgaged houses and pleasure boats, the poor are asked to 'move on' (=not to sleep in the park, not to anchor here, not to live onboard in a city marina).


Hatred goes from top to bottom, and it is truly sad to be at the bottom, whether out of your choice or when this is what was happened to you.


Yes. No typos. What was happened to you.


End of rant. Sell that crappy tub, buy Bitcoins, get rich. Move on - to the top layer. This is your only hope, my dearest hippie live aboard friend.



b.
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Old 17-08-2019, 16:19   #204
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

If the concept of being charged a Fee to liveaboard bothers you just think of it as a contribution and be assertive about it.



Don't worry be happy.
Here's a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note for note
Don't worry, be happy
On every liveaboard boat we have some trouble
But when you worry you make it double
Don't worry, be happy [until they double your liveaboard fee]
Don't worry, be happy now
don't worry
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) be happy
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) don't worry, be happy
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) don't worry
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) be happy
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) don't worry, be happy


Ain't got no place to lay your head
Somebody came and took your docking berth
Don't worry, be happy
The marina landlord say your rent is late
He may have to litigate
Don't worry, be happy

Oh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh don't worry, be happy
Here I give you someone's phone number, when you worry, call them, not me, I make you happy, don't worry, be happy)
Don't worry, be happy
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no sails
Ain't got no boat to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
'Cause when you worry your face will frown
And that will bring everybody down
So don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy now
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) don't worry
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) be happy
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) don't worry, be happy
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) don't worry
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) be happy
(Ooh, ooh ooh ooh oo-ooh ooh oo-ooh) don't worry, be happy

Now there, is this song I posted
I hope you learned note for note
Like good cruising sailors, don't worry, be happy
Now listen to what I said, in your life expect some trouble
When you worry you make it double
But don't worry, be happy, be happy now


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Old 17-08-2019, 16:27   #205
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
the " liveaboard fee is a racket in my humble opinion. You can add this to the " environmental" fee some marina's charge.

I can remember the days when there was no such thing.

Some bright spark said...hey...here is an untapped revenue stream....the boater....what can we do to suck anuddah dollah outa dere pocket...and voila....the " liveaboard" fee arrived.

As boaters, we are " renters"...we rent the boat slip and marina's are in the business to make money. Slip fees are generally based on availability and convenience, but some marina's have taken a hit these past few years...and are looking at any way to conjure up mo' money. Desirable marina's can do this with ease. Less desirable marina's not as easy.

Besides all that, slip rental fees typically go up on a yearly basis...why ???....'cuz the marina wants mo' money.
I've been to marina's, where my dinghy in davits counts to overall boat length, to squeeze a few more bucks out of my wallet.

The " liveaboard" fee would be easier to swallow if it was made part of the dockage slip fee. A $150 fee amounts to about 0.12c/ft/Month for your average 40' boat.

I was just reading today about B'mas cruising " fees" going up. A B'mas official stating he thinks the boating traffic to the B'mas can most probably "absorb" the extra cost. These costs are political expedient and don't really have much to do with anything.
When I first started going to the B'mas, a cruising permit was around $20 or so, and a " fishing permit another $15 or thereabouts.
The day will come (When Cuba is opened to the US boating traffic), that the Bahamians will quickly really the folly of the " fees".
Can't come soon enuff !!

Folks may recall the so-called" Luxury" tax imposed on boats a while back. Almost overnight, the boat building industry died. The " Luxury" tax came about 'cuz some braindead politician thought it would be good idea to add revenue stream to the guv'mints coffers.

I fear all these " fees" will eventually spell doom for the marine industry. Sooner or later, people will say fuggit and move on.

On the other side of the coin, trying to build a new marina these days is an uphill permitting battle with State and Federal agencies. A marina typically is also on the hook for a " submerged land lease" and trying to " dredge" a marina involves more permitting I care to explain. Besides the water being " waters of the State"...the mud on the bottom also " belongs" to the State.

All in all, things are not looking very bright for the boater. I can remember the days, when come September time, the Canadian " snowbirds" could be seen chugging down the ICW. These days, I rarely, if ever, see a Canadian boat anymore.

I don't know what the answer is, but after 35 years on the water, I'm ready to hang it up.


Wow, 80% of the boats I saw in the Abacos in March/April were Canadian. So theyre getting south by some means, maybe outside...?
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Old 17-08-2019, 22:52   #206
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

At least you Seppos have the "luxury" of *some* liveaboard marinas.

Not allowed in NSW.

Well, so the govt website says, but I know of at least one marina that does charge 'liveaboard' rates, and another that has a couple of 'dock rats' aka 'sneakaboards'...

Who, btw, don't need to sneak, as they are quiet, low profile, and keep night watch, so it saves the marina secruity costs.


Maybe, if you want to justify NOT paying a liveaboard fee, quantify the marina owner's security costs and point out how much you're saving him/her?

Or just anchor out and give them all the finger....

It's all about envy, and reverse envy.... the rich boat owners (who live ashore in their mega-mansions) don't see why some 'dock rat' should get a 'free' waterfront homne when they have to pay the State thousands in taxes for their waterfront condo/mega-mansion.

You're getting something for 'free' that they can't get / don't need, and they resent you getting something for free.

Sad but true...
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Old 17-08-2019, 22:55   #207
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

Our problem is, for an island nation, we don't have much estuarine coastline - it's mostly fast-flowing rivers that are not conducive to marina developments - and where we *could* put canals and marinas is now all locked up in 'wetlands', which further increases the cost of the existing infrastructure, as no more can be added cost-effectively.

The old supply and demand situation, compounded by State regulations.

In NSW you can't even anchor out!

One week in a single "anchorage" and for their purposes, the Marine cops treat the WHOLE of Sydney Harbour as a 'single anchorage'.....

Now that IS about stopping liveaboards, due to the politics of envy and the fun police stopping anythng that remotely resembles someone getting something that someone else can't have.

So, the 'have nots' fight the 'haves' to prevent the 'haves' getting what only the 'haves' can really afford.

Madness....
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Old 18-08-2019, 00:29   #208
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by vigilant View Post
I think it's about buy 1 for $1, and by 10 for $20.
That's exactly how the pricing works...
- Nightly rate...$2.50/ft
- Weekly rate...$10.00/ft
- Monthly rate $15.00/ft

Of course they get the monthly rate from:
- People who only show up once a month and hire out all the work on the boat.
- People who liveaboard and DIY most of the work on the boat.

Yes, that's a bit of a generalization but enough truth that the marina operator isn't going to care about the exception to the rule. And while the OP may have only used the shower block once in the last month, most will use it daily along with the other amenities.
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Old 18-08-2019, 01:48   #209
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post
We're full timers in the med who settle down for the winter 6 months. Last year it was Mallorca at about 20 euros a day all included. This year I got a deal under an old castle outside of Corfu 5 min walk from the center for 1200 euros for the whole winter, utils and wifi included. For a 53 footer. Sure I have to pay the extra hundred a month for the new Greek tax, but that still works out to be 10 bucks a day. No extra liveaboard fees. But if they wanted another 50 or 100 per month, I don't think I'd complain. 100% you'll be running the heat all winter, in Florida it'll be the AC. It's a steal compared to land living and all the utilities to pay there.
Davi,

I’ve tried to explain this to North Americans, but they simply don’t believe it based on the high north American prices they pay.

Example: I paid $10,000 USD to have our Oyster 62 sitting out of the water in a yard last year in North America for 12 months. The same boat would cost €2000 euros for eight months in a top Northern Italian shipyard/marina for eight months if I wanted to liveaboard, then nothing for me to live in anchorages except for the €150 per month Greek cruising tax.
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Old 18-08-2019, 02:41   #210
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Re: Liveaboard Fees - again

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Davi,

Ive tried to explain this to North Americans, but they simply dont believe it based on the high north American prices they pay.

Example: I paid $10,000 USD to have our Oyster 62 sitting out of the water in a yard last year in North America for 12 months. The same boat would cost 2000 euros for eight months in a top Northern Italian shipyard/marina for eight months if I wanted to liveaboard, then nothing for me to live in anchorages except for the 150 per month Greek cruising tax.
While there isn't a huge difference in cost in general terms, you are cherry picking locations. You can find far cheaper options in the USA and far more expensive options in Europe.

Once you account for similar availability and desirability, it's pretty close to the same prices.
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