Liveaboard Fees - again

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by WindwardPrinces

Government regulation to ensure market fairness, transparency, and that players aren't colluding to rig it is one thing. Government interfering in a market to control it is something quite different.

Two of our best examples are the U.S. vs Russia. One is mostly free, with minimal government intervention, and one mostly controlled. Which is most efficient? Which is most fair?

I must ask which you consider controlled and which free? What comes to Russia today it has merely a reputation of wild east with minimal control only costs of some pay offs

[TCM1968]

Originally Posted by OS2Dude

Most places do not really want live-aboards. Besides the extra interaction and 'drama', a some live aboard boats start to look trashy. There is one in our marina that looks more like the Wanderer at the beginning of Capt Ron than at the end... I spoke with the owner once and he said it takes him a day or so to get his boat able to leave the slip so on the rare times he does he will stay out for a week or so.

The actual Wanderer from the movie is in our marina, and it is an absolute wreck. The boat next to ours is a piece of crap too. We are not liveaboards but we stay on board every weekend. Yesterday when we arrived the boat next to ours had three large deck cushions out on the bow with the aft deck stainless frame rails sitting on top of them to hold them down. During the thunderstorms them blew through earlier that day the cushions blew off off their boat onto our and luckily the railings got hung up on their boat or it would have went through the windows of ours. In the six months we have been here I have never seen anyone on the boat next to us. I see way more unseaworthy boats in the marina practically abandoned by owners who rarely if at all even come to look at their boats. The vast majority of the live aboards I have seen here have very well maintained and seaworthy vessels.
I just don’t understand this stereotype against live aboards. Why can’t Marina’s just demand that vessels are seaworthy to be long term at the marina? What’s the difference weather or not someone lives on the vessel. I know this, I work my rear end off keeping my boat in the best shape I can on the weekends I’m hear, and if and when I live aboard it will be easier for me to keep up with the maintenance.

[TCM1968]

Originally Posted by Salty Fox

All of the fees they charge, including the liveaboard fee, pay for salaries, maintenance, materials, taxes, insurance, legal, and whatever profit might be left after all that.

But you aren't really asking about fees. You're asking about policies. You are expressing confusion about why one marina might have a policy that you agree with, while another marina has a policy that you don't agree with. So let's settle this issue for you now in this instance, and for everyone everywhere who has a problem with any policy issue:

You don't have power in this particular marina community. If you want to join this particular marina community, you are obliged to follow their rules, regardless of your capacity to understand those rules and regardless of your personal approval of those rules. If you wish to change the rules, you will need to ingratiate yourself into the community and rise to a position of leadership that will allow you to propose, implement, and enforce policies that make sense to you.

This is how society works. Nobody cares if you don't like it.

Wrong...I care.

[Group9]

I hate to say it, because I have been a live aboard, too, but most of the livaboards in our marina, keep a lot of crap on their boats. I guess because they really don't have any place else to keep it.

We leave our AC on 24/7, and most of the other boats do, too, so it's not the cost. I think it really is, just to discourage people from doing it.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

I must ask which you consider controlled and which free? What comes to Russia today it has merely a reputation of wild east with minimal control only costs of some pay offs

I don't know, you tell me. Are you feeling tempted to buy a Russian car, or any car produced in a former Soviet Republic? There are many, many examples.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I don't know, you tell me. Are you feeling tempted to buy a Russian car, or any car produced in a former Soviet Republic? There are many, many examples.

Had three. They were cheap and worked fine Thou dunno what that has to do with freedom and control..

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Had three. They were cheap and worked fine Thou dunno what that has to do with freedom and control..

I'll leave you to it, then.

[sailorboy1]

Well my boat brings the appearance of this place up. Maybe the extra fee next month is because it makes the boat trash here feel bad and they complain.

[parkstone bay]

One genuine reason that marinas are agin liveaboards is nothing to do with their "greed" or other financial pressures. It's to do with the pressure that the local council puts on them. The council will have its own views on housing development in the area, and one reason why UK marinas, (and I suspect USA ones as well), are viewed with suspicion by the council is that it is concerned that marinas don't land up being effectively residential housing, rather than merely a boat park.

[David1033]

After the war, there was a huge housing shortage just about everywhere in Europe. The Netherlands is no exception. Lot's of enterprising people started converting boats into house-boats. The government found it to be a suitable help in solving the problem. House-boats became a fixture in the Dutch scenery, in cities and rurally. So far so good.

In more recent years the government and local councils have realised that they have been missing an opportunity. In 2000 some bright spark thought of the concept of 'moving property tax' (similar to (fixed) property tax. We already pay for a mooring licence, plus annual mooring fees. Recently, the mooring fees are based on the length and beam of the boat. Recently, the local council tried to justify charging twice as much mooring fee for boats with two levels. They've also attempted to charge some sort of fee for the water under the jetties or bridges necessary to get on and off the boats, saying it's water we're preventing others from using - that's BS, because the water is too shallow (and too full of rubble) to be used for recreation - that's why the boats are moored further out, and why the jetties / bridges are needed.

So yes, the councils see our boats as cash-cows, and I can believe that if there were liveaboards in Marinas, they might feel frustrated at not being able to milk them, because they (the liveaboards) should be living in houses where the council can get their money.

[barnakiel]

Power / water / etc. are marginal in this calculation.


The reason behind a 'cruising fee' popping up say on the second week you are there is always to discourage living aboard.


I have seen this deployed beautifully by city marina in Las Palmas, Canary Islands. They got a new boss there last year and she started a 'commercialization' effort. Read: get rid of small boats with people living aboard, populate the docks with big and empty upper class boats - these bring in more cash and less fuss.


One thing is ever sure - whatever the fees they only ever go UP.


Cheers,
b.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

I must ask which you consider controlled and which free? What comes to Russia today it has merely a reputation of wild east with minimal control only costs of some pay offs

I was thinking the same thing. Russia isn’t The Soviet Union any more.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Power / water / etc. are marginal in this calculation.


The reason behind a 'cruising fee' popping up say on the second week you are there is always to discourage living aboard.


.

At he very top of the website for the marina I’m heading to for spending the next couple of hot months is that they accept liveaboard. So they making liveaboards one of their main targets so don’t appear to be trying to “discourage living aboard”

But there is a $200/mo liveaboard fee and this brings back to the start.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by David1033

After the war, there was a huge housing shortage just about everywhere in Europe. The Netherlands is no exception. Lot's of enterprising people started converting boats into house-boats. The government found it to be a suitable help in solving the problem. House-boats became a fixture in the Dutch scenery, in cities and rurally. So far so good.

In more recent years the government and local councils have realised that they have been missing an opportunity. In 2000 some bright spark thought of the concept of 'moving property tax' (similar to (fixed) property tax. We already pay for a mooring licence, plus annual mooring fees. Recently, the mooring fees are based on the length and beam of the boat. Recently, the local council tried to justify charging twice as much mooring fee for boats with two levels. They've also attempted to charge some sort of fee for the water under the jetties or bridges necessary to get on and off the boats, saying it's water we're preventing others from using - that's BS, because the water is too shallow (and too full of rubble) to be used for recreation - that's why the boats are moored further out, and why the jetties / bridges are needed.

So yes, the councils see our boats as cash-cows, and I can believe that if there were liveaboards in Marinas, they might feel frustrated at not being able to milk them, because they (the liveaboards) should be living in houses where the council can get their money.

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet

Taxman!
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

Don't ask me what I want it for (Aahh Mr. Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more (Aahh Mr. Heath)
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

And you're working for no one but me
Taxman!



-- The Beatles

[MrPix]

It would seem the trick here is to pair off with another liveaboard at a nearby marina. Every month, you dutifully swap places. You never stay over a month.

Local law-wise, maybe what is needed here is a powerful lobby - a Cruisers and Live-aboard Association. If 100,000 people joined, it would be a very powerful lobbying group to write a letter saying "if you do this, here's 100,000 people who will not visit your jurisdiction."