Just purchased first liveaboard, need major refit advice (37' wooden ex fishing boat)

[landlockedsquid]

Originally Posted by jawshuwah

Im new and don't even have a boat. Just started thinking,planning, and studying. So I don't have ANY advice other than this.
If that is you in this pic, keep doing what your doing cause you look like one happy dude.
Good luck to ya.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by jawshuwah

Yes, I will! Sorry for the bad ones above... better ones coming.



The dinette could be good, but it is on a raised platform with a storage bin beneath. This makes it uncomfortable to get in and out of. It also has a vertical wooden back, making it not a comfortable place to hang out. The table has raised edges and the support is not 100% stable.

The head as-is is too small to add a shower - you can barely get inside to pee. It is barely usable and the hoses probably need replacing too as it smells awful.

I also would like a shower sooner rather than later. I'm a land person converting to liveaboard... Having two kitchens, one of which is just taking up space, also really needs to go right away.

I'm curious how many other people are down on propane? One person mentioned it, and I've always been against it on boats myself, but a lot of boats seem to have propane. How big of a deal is this, with adequate safety (propane sniffer alarm, shutoff valves, etc)? I would gladly switch if there was a convenient option... the diesel stove taking 30 mins to get warm isn't quite that.

I've used propane on boats for 30yrs, 20yrs as a full time liveaboard. It is a safe fuel if used properly. It is dangerous if the system was installed by a Darwin reject, Take a look at Safe Boat Propane Installations.

[jawshuwah]

Originally Posted by landlockedsquid

If that is you in this pic, keep doing what your doing cause you look like one happy dude.

Thanks, that is me! This boat is the latest part of my lifelong effort to maximize general happiness

[jawshuwah]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

Photos tell a lot.

Post some photos of your boat (outside profile, inside shots etc. )

Ok, I bought a new camera and took some more pictures. Apologies for the horrible mess, as you can see so far I've pretty much just dumped some of my crap on board and drank beer.

Hopefully these can give you a better idea of my boat

[jawshuwah]

I just realized how huge those pictures come in if you're not on firefox... oops...

[TrentePieds]

Hey Jaws:

The PO was on the right track. The problem lies in the detail execution. It always does, and that is why I warned you not to rely on computer drawings and why somebody else suggested you do "mock ups" using boxes and stuff.

You are a little short of beam for the best possible arrangement. That sez that the "U"-shaped dinette won't work. Try sketching in a dinette with thwartships benches, 48" long (minimum for two handsome men to sit side by each) going out to the house side, and depth of seat 15" (absolute minimum for decent support of your thighs as you sit.

Width of table should be 22" minimum (if you can squeeze it in. Length should match the benches. The "raised edges" you talk about are essential. They are called "fiddles", and they are relieved at the corners so you can sweep out crumbs and stuff. They are there to stop things sliding off the table as the ship rolls.

Start with an accurately drawn and dimensioned scale drawing of a dinette having my suggested measurements. Draw it on a separate piece of paper. Cut the drawing out of the paper along it's outline and lay this little picture over the plan view ("deck plan") of the boat. Slide it around to see if make it fit comfortably on the deck plan, and how much space will be left over for other stuff.

The PO buggered up some really valuable real estate by installing the diesel stove and by running a dry exhaust stack through the saloon. Often done in fishboats for reasons of economy, but not really appropriate in a live-aboard yot! Yots have different operational requirements from fishboats :-)

TrentePieds

[Juho]

Originally Posted by jawshuwah

My priorities:

• Turn the v-berth into more of a stateroom, with a double bed and cupboards.
• Add a shower and larger head

You could have square shaped double bed at the bow. Maybe the old head could become a shower. You will still have enough room for a bigger head on the other side. Access to the engine room will be through the head. You may still have some room left for a cupboard. The bed could be raised a bit to generate more storage space under it.

It was (mostly) converted to liveaboard at some point, and somehow ended up with TWO galleys/eating areas. This is obviously a huge waste of space.

The galley at the forward cabin is quite small. If you want a bigger and better equipped galley, then the aft cabin could be the best option. I like the wooden interior and old stove of the forward cabin, so I don't propose to convert that into a galley. It is good as it is as a pilothouse where you can see what's happening around (with 360° views). If you don't need the old stove for cooking, heating or decoration (I like it but ...), then a small armchair could fit in there. The old galley table could serve as a regular table (without the sink).

Originally Posted by jawshuwah

I was thinking along these lines... make my life comfortable, and design for the maximum number of potential guests but as for comfort, it's fold down bunks wherever they can be fit in.

The forward cabin and aft cabin can both have lots of seats for the guests. The aft cabin galley could be a bit narrower than now (bar style), to leave more space for the seats.

The forward cabin table could be removable or could be lowered to make the settee a double bed for the guests.

So far my budget is:

• $400-$500 for hot water:
  • something like this
  • or this
• $900-$1,000 for a washer/dryer
• $400 for a shower setup (including sump and something like this)

I wonder if the water heater, washer/dryer, possible new grey water tank and possible new water tanks (you need lots of water for the shower and for the washing machine) fit in the engine room or somewhere else under the floor. Better there than in the galley.

The fridge should be integrated in the aft cabin galley table. Maybe you can reach some of the front cabin galley cupboards from the aft cabin galley.

[jawshuwah]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

The PO buggered up some really valuable real estate by installing the diesel stove and by running a dry exhaust stack through the saloon.

What is the alternative? I have a MIG welder, rerouting exhaust is not beyond the scope of what I'm willing to do. I will be removing the old diesel stove.

Originally Posted by Juho

You could have square shaped double bed at the bow. Maybe the old head could become a shower. You will still have enough room for a bigger head on the other side. Access to the engine room will be through the head.

I thought of doing exactly that. I was scheming some kind of fold-out shower stall where the engine room access is. At the end of the day though, I think the bow is just not the place for the head... the lack of flat floor space is what does it for me. This is going to be a home, I need a bathroom I can stand up in, look in the mirror, comfortably shower in.

Originally Posted by Juho

I wonder if the water heater, washer/dryer, possible new grey water tank and possible new water tanks (you need lots of water for the shower and for the washing machine) fit in the engine room or somewhere else under the floor.

The current water storage I believe is 80 gallons. There is probably room in the engine room for more, but I will probably only use these features when docked at a marina.

If you look in what is currently the aft galley, there is a lot of storage space beneath the forward cabin. I think those spaces would fit the washer/dryer well, and possibly the water heater if it doesn't go in the engine room.

[jawshuwah]

Have a look, I've tweaked my new layout from above.

I really like the galley and eating area in the forward cabin, because it has the most light and nice views. It makes a good "main hangout" space.

I also really like the study/office area in the aft cabin as it is darker and more private.

Putting the head in the aft cabin means the whole floor is flat, and it can be quite spacious. Also there is a little "notch" into the rear wall of the forward cabin where the mast used to come down, I can put the sink and bathroom cabinet in this and save some space.

The washer/dryer could go either in the head in the storage space under the galley, or possibly in one of the storage areas marked to aft. There is also the possibility of fold-down bunks in the study area or the forward "state room" where the shelving is.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by jawshuwah

I really like the galley and eating area in the forward cabin, because it has the most light and nice views. It makes a good "main hangout" space.

I also really like the study/office area in the aft cabin as it is darker and more private.

I was first thinking of moving the galley to the aft cabin in the new plan, but since you want the study/office area too, and the spacious head, this latest layout seems like a good plan to follow. You will lose some entertaining space, but I guess that's only second priority stuff, and the comfort of the bedroom, head and study/office area come first.

Putting the head in the aft cabin means the whole floor is flat, and it can be quite spacious. Also there is a little "notch" into the rear wall of the forward cabin where the mast used to come down, I can put the sink and bathroom cabinet in this and save some space.

I would consider making the shower a separate space (curtain or light shower door) at the end of the head/shower room, to keep the rest of the room dry. This is not necessarily easy, but maybe the head would partially fit in the dent.

I always check the corridors in the boat layout plans. Small amount of corridor space correlates with efficient use of the available space. Narrow corridor spaces are also good for moving safely around when the boat rocks, and for working in the galley (you want to lean somewhere). You need to plan numerous handrails to get a good grip when moving around (http://www.boatersland.com/images/img/wcp60106.jpg). My preference is to plan one narrow and easy route with good handrails through the boat.

Since your plan also folds the captain's seat away and removes the passenger seat altogether, your design seems more marina onboard living oriented than designed for rough seas. (That's ok, just pointing out different alternatives.)

In the forward cabin the corridor space is quite wide. Maybe it could be narrower and the table and benches larger.

In the bedroom, access to the engine room will take some space. But you said you want the bedroom to be spacious, so maybe you are happy with that extra floor / corridor space.

Since you plan to take the old stove away, you may want to have a new (smaller, hidden) heating system installed, or maybe a cooling system, depending on where you plan to live and cruise.

[jawshuwah]

Originally Posted by Juho

I would consider making the shower a separate space (curtain or light shower door) at the end of the head/shower room, to keep the rest of the room dry.

I've seen a lot of people suggest this, not sure why. Is this to keep moisture out of the rest of the boat? I was thinking to seal the entire bathroom with fiberglass or some other means. I've always liked all-in-one shower/toilets because I hate cleaning bathrooms.

Originally Posted by Juho

your design seems more marina onboard living oriented than designed for rough seas.

I suppose that is true. It's a good point though, I should consider that I will likely take it out for some cruising at some point, and may want to live in it for extended periods of exploration. Perhaps I will consider some adjustments as you say.

Interesting about corridors... I had always thought similarly bit in an opposite fashion - corridors themselves are a waste of space, and to be efficient they should be avoided (why have a room just to get between rooms). I can see how at sea, having a narrow corridor could be an advantage.

Yes I was thinking one of those smaller upright Dickinson heaters also.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by jawshuwah

I've seen a lot of people suggest this, not sure why. Is this to keep moisture out of the rest of the boat? I was thinking to seal the entire bathroom with fiberglass or some other means. I've always liked all-in-one shower/toilets because I hate cleaning bathrooms.

I was thinking of getting your soles wet, having a slippery floor, getting your socks, trousers and toilet paper wet, i.e. all kind of practical things because of having water everywhere after shower.

A shower curtain would be the simplest approach. It would not make cleaning more difficult (maybe easier).

Yes I was thinking one of those smaller upright Dickinson heaters also.

One simple and common approach that does not take much space is the Webasto, Espar/Eberspächer, Wallas "diesel heater + hot air" approach. With hot air ducts you could heat all or some of the rooms as needed. You need some electricity for the fan, but in a marina that should not be a problem.

[Scout 30]

[QUOTE=jawshuwah;2144202]I've seen a lot of people suggest this, not sure why. Is this to keep moisture out of the rest of the boat? I was thinking to seal the entire bathroom with fiberglass or some other means. I've always liked all-in-one shower/toilets because I hate cleaning bathrooms.


Fresh water is a boat killer. Especially a wooden boat. It's not the water itself but the wood destroying organisms that it promotes that actually rot wood. If you have a shower stall you can contain the water but if not you will need to dry off the head completely after every shower & even then it will still be damp enough to promote rot.

Salt water, on the other hand, is a wood preservative. In the old days sailors used to intentionally sink their wooden boats in order to preserve them. They would also attach a wooden box with a block of salt in it to the overhead. Of course this was before AIS, radar, EPIRBs, PLBs, GPS chart plotters & radios with distress buttons, commonly referred to as "the good old days". Strange how back then people used to sail all over the world without all that stuff & now if your electronics are 3 years old their obsolete.

[TrentePieds]

Jaws:

You are on the right track :-)!

We'll all be able to help you better if you run in a coupla auxiliary lines on your deck plan. I take it your beam is 10 feet or so at deck level in the wheelhouse/saloon.

On your sketch, run in the fore'n'aft centreline. If you can find a line in your program that is like this ___ .. ___ .. __., use it That is the recognized symbol for a centerline . The dots and dashes should be in alignment, of course :-) Then, 1 foot out on either side of the CL run in faint fore'n'aft lines. Do the same 3 foot out from the CL and 5 foot out, so there are four faint solid lines in addition to the CL. These will be space 2 feet. You will find that doing that will give your eye a chance to judge relationships and sizes much better.

As drawn, your seats are too narrow and your table therefore is shown bigger than it has any right to be. Remember I said seats need to be 15" wide, minimum. That is 2/3 of the distance twixt the auxiliary lines I'm suggesting.

See you tomorrow :-)

TrentePieds

[jawshuwah]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

We'll all be able to help you better if you run in a coupla auxiliary lines on your deck plan.

On your sketch, run in the fore'n'aft centreline. If you can find a line in your program that is like this ___ .. ___ .. __., use it That is the recognized symbol for a centerline .... Then, 1 foot out on either side of the CL run in faint fore'n'aft lines. Do the same 3 foot out from the CL and 5 foot out, so there are four faint solid lines in addition to the CL. These will be space 2 feet.

As drawn, your seats are too narrow and your table therefore is shown bigger than it has any right to be. Remember I said seats need to be 15" wide, minimum. That is 2/3 of the distance twixt the auxiliary lines I'm suggesting.

Thanks for that! I've just gone round with a tape measure and I'm now doing up a "to-scale" sketch, will add those lines.

Is there any rule of thumb for the depth a galley countertop should be? The one in the current "new galley" is 22"... it appears to be from a house, and I feel like it's too wide.