I am being told that Liveaboard Boats loans are now impossible

[hellosailor]

Dennis-
While I would agree with you in some circumstances, the IRS sometimes does very well. They were among the first, perhaps the first, major government agency to make all publications available by faxback, and then online by PDF file. And then very shortly after that, they changed from "plain" PDF files to PDF fillable forms, so people could download, fill out on the computer, and submit all without paper or manual typing.

Sometimes they get it right.

The also have put a number of "decision trees" and aids online, i.e. listing in plain language the criteria that are used to determine whether a person is an employee or a contractor, which was a big gray area in the 90's. Anyone with a 10th grade education can use this stuff, and that includes their phone help.

Likewise there are gobs of good information about retirement accounts online, and they also make it VERY clear how and when taxes or penalties apply to them.

Yes, sometimes their documentation on some subjects and situations can be totally obtuse. But for IRAs and determining what a "home" is? THey got that stuff straight long ago.

They also have a very clear policy about "Well I called the IRS and someone told me..." situations. If you bother to take the phone rep's ID number (which they all provide without being asked) the IRS will take that into account, and if they decide that what you did was wrong, usually you will only owe the amount in error, with fines and penalties waived because it was THEIR rep who instructed you. Exactly the same way that they usually act when "your" CPA or EA makes the same kind of mistake.

Couple of years ago I had a question about IRA rollovers and some complications that weren't covered in their docs. The first rep gave me over to an IRA specialist, who gave me to another sub-specialist, who eventually walked me through a decision tree that she had, and she finished up by saying that IF all of those points applied, then the answer definitely was (whatever).

Of course you could also record the call, that's simple enough.

Not that I'd confuse the IRS with the tooth fairy, but there are a lot of very competent folks there, and considering that the help is free, it is often well worth the price of the call. If they sound at all uncertain (or if you call back on the next day and get a different answer) by all means ask a tax attorney. They spend all year reading up and then very often have to make the same judgment calls though.

[vfsurgpa]

When I bought my boat, I was told the loan was impossible to get if I wanted to live aboard. The reason was that if I failed to make the payments, it would be difficult for the bank to repo the boat if it is a home. Not the same thing, but perhaps related.

[hellosailor]

"it would be difficult for the bank to repo the boat if it is a home."
That's a good point. There are some states (including Florida, which is a popular "I live in a box on that shelf" residence) where the resident of a primary home basically cannot be evicted--even for bankruptcy or foreclosure.

[Rumplestiltskin]

Although I don't have a boat loan, I'm not surprised that live aboard loans are hard to come by, as they must surely confuse any non-marine mortgage lender. I just wouldn't mention the boat is a live aboard myself, in fact I would be happy to tell fibs about anything asked on trust that can't be verified. But that's me, morally malleable as I am. Once the loan is drawn down, the banks don't care until the day the loan falls into arrears, same as your house. You get some idea of how tight the loan market is at the moment when the Deputy Chairman of the Reserve Bank of Australia has his mortgage application knocked back. I think something similar happened recently in the USA with the Chair of the Federal Reserve or something?

[captainbri]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Perhaps you need to be a bit more judicious with your application.

Of course you still live in an apartment.
Of course you would never leave your job,
Of course you would never go cruising
Of course you would never live aboard.

Get the money.

Do what you want

I agree 100% lie lie lie. The american tax payer bailed the banks out and now they dont want to lend money. The banks walked away from all kinds of properties. And yet they get loans. They fail we bailed them out and now they wont lend money. It sounds like the OP has better credit than the banks. Lie lie lie just like they do

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[captainbri]

Originally Posted by johnmcntsh

Re: I am being told that Liveaboard Boats loans are now impossible
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
This entire scam is going to come to a shuddering halt at some point and those who hold gold or tradeable hard assets like food, ammo and firearms will be the only ones able to sustain life. Tragic but true and it will hit world wide, unfortunately.
:lol:

My wife and I own real estate, physical silver in a safe, not with a bank, 6 months worth of food stores, and roughly 10k rounds of ammo in various calibers, and the tools needed to use them

Sage advice.



What a bunch of of nonsense!!!

Really its so hard to get a loan its not funny. You think they sre crazy yet the government wont stop travel from ebola effected countries. Look what happend to the stock market. 25% of working people are unemployed. More people in the usa are below the poverty line than ever before. Think of me what you want but the facts are there. Ask yourself if ebola bresks out in america what will happen. Be glad you have a boat because that is where you will be.

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[ontherocks83]

Tacoma any head way or updates on your predicament yet? Were you able to find a lender?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by captainbri

I agree 100% lie lie lie.

So you're encouraging felony fraud?

[captainbri]

Originally Posted by BandB

So you're encouraging felony fraud?

Think what you want

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[BandB]

Originally Posted by captainbri

Think what you want

That was a question, not a statement.

[TacomaSailor]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Tacoma any head way or updates on your predicament yet? Were you able to find a lender?

Sorry about not providing any update here. I was really sure that I had posted the following message in regards to this thread but I guess I did not or it got lost or maybe it is in the other thread about loans (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...an-133796.html).

Several weeks ago the following happened:

- I contacted a regional manager at ESSEX
- He reviewed the loan application
- there was no reason I should have been told that a liveaboard loan was not possible
- a liveaboard loan costs about 1/2% more than one where the person requesting the loan owns a shoreside propery
- a lifeaboard loan requires a 25% down payment as opposed to 20%
- the loan can be for up to 20 years
- documented income and tax details (1040s etc)
- proof of insurance (an offer sheet from a reputable insurance company)
- proof of slip fees (offer sheet from a known marina)
- the loans I describe are only for well known, high quality, production boats with a strong recent sales history

This whole problem was caused by a mis-communications and a lack of followup to my phone calls and e-mail requests for explanations about the denial of my original loan request

To those who are suggesting being less than truthful:

Banks and the Feds are scrutinizing loan applications and backup documents. They know all the tricks you guys are suggesting and will come down very hard on those trying to game the system. It is foolish and dangerous for you to be making those suggestions.

I've discussed "mis-leading" loan applications with several loan officers and they tell me there is no patience or leniency for those making such applications. If you are detected making such a fraudulent loan application - there is little change of ever getting another loan, even for a cup of coffee.

[Scot McPherson]

Do how did this work out for you? Seems you were going to buy custom if I recall correctly.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

Sorry about not providing any update here. I was really sure that I had posted the following message in regards to this thread but I guess I did not or it got lost or maybe it is in the other thread about loans (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...an-133796.html).

Several weeks ago the following happened:

- I contacted a regional manager at ESSEX
- He reviewed the loan application
- there was no reason I should have been told that a liveaboard loan was not possible
- a liveaboard loan costs about 1/2% more than one where the person requesting the loan owns a shoreside propery
- a lifeaboard loan requires a 25% down payment as opposed to 20%
- the loan can be for up to 20 years
- documented income and tax details (1040s etc)
- proof of insurance (an offer sheet from a reputable insurance company)
- proof of slip fees (offer sheet from a known marina)
- the loans I describe are only for well known, high quality, production boats with a strong recent sales history

This whole problem was caused by a mis-communications and a lack of followup to my phone calls and e-mail requests for explanations about the denial of my original loan request

To those who are suggesting being less than truthful:

Banks and the Feds are scrutinizing loan applications and backup documents. They know all the tricks you guys are suggesting and will come down very hard on those trying to game the system. It is foolish and dangerous for you to be making those suggestions.

I've discussed "mis-leading" loan applications with several loan officers and they tell me there is no patience or leniency for those making such applications. If you are detected making such a fraudulent loan application - there is little change of ever getting another loan, even for a cup of coffee.

Thanks for returning with this information. Unfortunately, getting the wrong people by internet or by phone can lead to much misinformation. I've been told more times by bank tellers that something was law that clearly wasn't and the manager had to correct them. I've gotten quite use to having to ask the first three people you reach for their manager until you get to one with true knowledge.

I'll add something to your statement of a fraudulent application. If it gets you the loan and then something goes wrong, there was a time you certainly were in risk of getting no more loans. But today the banks do go further. As a practice, they pursue legally including criminal prosecution. They will sometimes not do that if you pay them all you owe on immediate demand. Their attitudes toward these things have changed dramatically as they've been burned by so many multi-million dollar scams of this type. Falsified financials is generally the most common loan fraud.

Insurance companies have it easier. They don't research extensively until you make a claim. Then they just claim the contract to be invalid and don't pay.

Oh, also know that in addition to state and federal laws on mortgage or bank fraud, depending on how the communication takes place aggressive prosecutors will toss in mail or wire fraud too.

[Kestle]

We often see individuals accept advice from those who do not have have the professional credentials to provide it. This hasn't shifted much over my thirty years of observation. If you want tax advice, hire a CPA or tax lawyer, not a financial planner.

I would ask Essex what insurance companies they tend to work with, as you would want the loan to be paid off in a loss; an insurance broker with minimal marine experience will not give you the perspective on claims that is so important.

[TacomaSailor]

Originally Posted by Scot McPherson

Do how did this work out for you? Seems you were going to buy custom if I recall correctly.

We are still want the custom boat but I understand why no one will finance it. We are trying to work out a short term owner financing scheme.

Our concerns are:
- minimize the tax consequences?
- will we be able to sell the boat in 10-years when I am even older and more decrepit?
- where to keep a 51' boat with a 29' beam?
- do we really want that big a boat?

- We are working with a tax attorney and CFP on the first issue
- If we buy it cheap I imagine we can sell it even cheaper
- We probably have to stay at anchor outside the US

The owners concern is about
- enough down payment to make it worthwhile
- how to protect his financial interest if we are off cruising

The good news is that the owner of the boat has a new built 85' carbon fiber catamaran that his professional crew is sailing around the world. Every month or so the owner flies to the boats current location and sails with them for a week or so. Maybe he will gift his older "smaller" boat to us?

We have found a couple nice catamarans that we might consider if the custom cat deal gets too complicated.

Catana 42 (my choice)
Manta 42
Lagoon 440 (my wife's favorite)

and Essex seems perfectly happy to finance any of them.

Or maybe go over to the dark side:
Flemming 55
Seahorse 52
Defever 49 RPH (my all time favorite boat)

Choices - Choices - it is all so confusing!