Human Nature

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

You entered into a contract with him and he simply failed to fulfill his end of the bargain. That's not a crime, hence the "civil matter." I got the same line when i sold my car as a naive 17-year old to a fellow who was going to pay me "tomorrow...but i need the registration so I can get a plate today." I still had a set of keys but a small claims judgement is worth diddly-squat if you can't find the car and the guy is now in jail.

Luckily it didn't ruin my faith in humans totally, but I generally never enter an agreement I can't afford to have go sideways. It sucks to say, but "c'est la vie."

Bingo...this is why it's not a criminal case. It's a contract dispute, which is civil. At least that's the line of thought the police are going to follow.

It's sad that you can't trust people but when dealing with items worth 10's of thousands....dealing with licensed & insured may seem to cost more...

[gbmacca]

Soooo - if he fails to complete the contract, but retains my motors and will not allow me access to them - with the threat of 'trespass' is this failure to complete contract or - theft of my motors?

[rbk]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Bingo...this is why it's not a criminal case. It's a contract dispute, which is civil. At least that's the line of thought the police are going to follow.

It's sad that you can't trust people but when dealing with items worth 10's of thousands....dealing with licensed & insured may seem to cost more...

Yes and no. If No specific timeline was stipulated then a ‘reasonable’ amount of time is considered by the courts. Taking the matter to small claims will in most cases see a specific date for the contract to be completed or expire. Assuming the defendant doesn’t show (as most don’t in Sc cases) the court will give you a definitive date in which he has to complete. After that expires and you haven't received a response from him and hasn’t returned your money and engine he can be held in contempt and hauled in and charged. At that point if the judge feels that the original agreement was made in malice (chargeable offence) then it can go from there, ordered to pay damages, jail time etc whatever the courts decide. Unfortunately you have to do the legal dance, it takes a while but it creates a legal paper trail and gives your statements credibility and a ‘reasonable’ timeframe that the courts recognize. The first few trips to court will feel like nothing is happening but in fact your starting a legal timeline.

[gbmacca]

The arduous task I set for this guy, to prove himself to me - where I watched him work on a backhoe which nobody could start, monitored his attitude to difficult tasks, spent a night talking about his past experience, then welcoming him into my home - I don't think could have been a more thorough examination of his work ethics and nature - yet he stuffed me ----

At 71 years of age, and having been at boarding school then in the army for 3 years, worked in mechanics, mining, construction, oil rigs, fashion sales and accessories then in optical wholesaling - to finish of my working life in a very successful 12 years in real estate - I think somehow gives me a bit of practical learning experience on human nature in different environments - but - he screwed me ---

Gbmacca

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by gbmacca

Soooo - if he fails to complete the contract, but retains my motors and will not allow me access to them - with the threat of 'trespass' is this failure to complete contract or - theft of my motors?

You are trying to blend 2 separate items:
- Failure to complete the Contract is civil.
- If you trespass, that is criminal (probably a minor infraction in reality) as you had no Contract to access his property.

Only way you can make the motors criminal is if you can prove it was an intentional effort to steal or defraud you. The police don't want to get involved in civil matters, so until you can prove it, they won't want to get involved. Unfortunately, in this scenario, the burden is on you to prove that it's criminal and then get the police and likely the DA to agree.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rbk

Yes and no. If No specific timeline was stipulated then a ‘reasonable’ amount of time is considered by the courts. Taking the matter to small claims will in most cases see a specific date for the contract to be completed or expire. Assuming the defendant doesn’t show (as most don’t in Sc cases) the court will give you a definitive date in which he has to complete. After that expires and you haven't received a response from him and hasn’t returned your money and engine he can be held in contempt and hauled in and charged. At that point if the judge feels that the original agreement was made in malice (chargeable offence) then it can go from there, ordered to pay damages, jail time etc whatever the courts decide. Unfortunately you have to do the legal dance, it takes a while but it creates a legal paper trail and gives your statements credibility and a ‘reasonable’ timeframe that the courts recognize. The first few trips to court will feel like nothing is happening but in fact your starting a legal timeline.

Small claims is for civil matters...and yes, the OP is likely to win in court.

Collecting is a different matter...I'll give 10-1 you never see a penny from this guy and a fair chance the motors will never be returned (or possibly returned in far worse shape).

Pushing it up from a small claims court claim to a criminal matter is highly unlikely unless there is a lot more evidence than has been provided by the OP so far. It's simply a much higher bar to make it criminal.

Honestly, the OPs best bet is to tone it down and ask nicely if he will just return the motors and call it done. It won't feel satisfying but is likely to result in the best outcome.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Small claims is for civil matters...and yes, the OP is likely to win in court.

Collecting is a different matter...I'll give 10-1 you never see a penny from this guy and a fair chance the motors will never be returned (or possibly returned in far worse shape).

Pushing it up from a small claims court claim to a criminal matter is highly unlikely unless there is a lot more evidence than has been provided by the OP so far. It's simply a much higher bar to make it criminal.

Honestly, the OPs best bet is to tone it down and ask nicely if he will just return the motors and call it done. It won't feel satisfying but is likely to result in the best outcome.

Yes but if malice with intent to defraud can be proven criminal charges can be laid, and while I do agree that getting them laid or his money back is a long shot asking nicely is not the way to go. Serve him papers and make it real. If he runs, then he’s a no show in court, garnish his wages and at the very least be happy knowing you made his life a royal pain in the ass for a good long while.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rbk

Yes but if malice with intent to defraud can be proven criminal charges can be laid, and while I do agree that getting them laid or his money back is a long shot asking nicely is not the way to go. Serve him papers and make it real. If he runs, then he’s a no show in court, garnish his wages and at the very least be happy knowing you made his life a royal pain in the ass for a good long while.

Technically you are correct...and if you want to beat your head against the wall to no purpose, go for it.

[RaymondR]

I normally try to steer clear of lawyers they're a bunch of damned dilatants however if you can find the right one they can sometimes help.

This guy is a scam artist and it's quiet likely that he has not bought any parts yet. You need to get your engines back and find someone else to do the work.

Sometimes sending a recalcitrant a mean letter of demand on a law firms letterhead will bring them to their senses and not cost to much. That's the first thing I'd try.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

I normally try to steer clear of lawyers they're a bunch of damned dilatants however if you can find the right one they can sometimes help.

Imploring an uncivilized man to act civilized has historically been a function of the community (i.e. social contract theory...goes back to when humans started coalescing in groups), not a plaintiff's attorney.

Put differently, an honest civilized individual ought not to only expect civility from others only if the honest individual can afford a strongman with connections to act like a strongman. That's like 1 step away from a mafia society (or is de facto the same).

Shakespeare minced logic with words in a most fantastic way, inducing double-think. He understood the ancient shtick of lawyers, their methods (same as his, but not for art), and wrote a prescription that's been followed in failed societies several times since.

To call a conflict a "civil" matter when one party is acting uncivilized ordinarily, logically, would induce one to think "hey, that uncivilized guy ought not be in our civilization, let's lock him away." But thanks to lawyer double-think, "civilized" matters become private matters...as if we all live in little two-party civilizations, not a community. So in this lawyer scheme, at best a rich victim gets his money back, but this action does nothing to prevent the uncivilized man from creating a new victim. He can do it again and again as he's not in jail or on the police radar screen. This creates more "work" for lawyers...job security.

The relatively poor feed off of one another, word-wizards (mesmerizers) with connections get to buy nice things with typically zero manual labor expectations in life. Human nature.

[S/V Adeline]

Gbmacca,
Are you seeking advice on the legal matter or more along the personal side of not realizing the nature of the man?
Legally, if the police are no help, I would follow the small claims court every step. Contrary to what some may believe it is not pointless. You may never get your engines back but another point on his rap sheet makes his life harder and eventually he will get his. He might realize this himself and return the property to keep that next point off his sheet. For little more effort than you have used in this thread you can start that process and see where it goes.
As to the personal issue, a good con man is one that you are never aware of until the con is run. A con man's (or woman's) personality is deception. They will become what you want to see as long as it suits their needs.
Good Luck
Michael

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

Contrary to what some may believe it is not pointless. You may never get your engines back but another point on his rap sheet makes his life harder and eventually he will get his. He might realize this himself and return the property to keep that next point off his sheet. For little more effort than you have used in this thread you can start that process and see where it goes.

Well unless the laws are different in Australia this is not true. As previously stated it is currently a civil matter and will affect his record not one iota. It is one of the things, imho, that makes fraud such a heinous crime. It mostly preys on the honest or vulnerable and often isn't even technically a crime.

But I would go ahead with the claim. At least a the end of it you might be able to hire your equivalent of a sheriff and go reclaim your motors.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

Well unless the laws are different in Australia this is not true. As previously stated it is currently a civil matter and will affect his record not one iota. It is one of the things, imho, that makes fraud such a heinous crime. It mostly preys on the honest or vulnerable and often isn't even technically a crime.

But I would go ahead with the claim. At least a the end of it you might be able to hire your equivalent of a sheriff and go reclaim your motors.

In the U.S. any monetary judgment against you shows up on your credit report at the very least. At least mine do LOL! I sat in the wrong courtroom for an hour because I was 5 minutes late and missed the announcement that my case was transferred to another courtroom. Judge didn't want excuses, wasn't able to present my case, and it still shows up as judgment for the plaintiff/defendant did not appear. Many potential employers pull your public records, a potential thorn in the side.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

In the U.S. any monetary judgment against you shows up on your credit report at the very least. At least mine do LOL! I sat in the wrong courtroom for an hour because I was 5 minutes late and missed the announcement that my case was transferred to another courtroom. Judge didn't want excuses, wasn't able to present my case, and it still shows up as judgment for the plaintiff/defendant did not appear. Many potential employers pull your public records, a potential thorn in the side.

It will sort of show up (Credit via your federal tax man) that his wages are currently being garnished (hard to gain employment but not impossible) This also prohibits him/her from acquiring any professional designations, sitting on certain boards/committees, acquiring licenses and in some cases from leaving the country; Sometimes permanently, in case if licenses etc.

The big difference between US and Commonwealth legal systems is there is only one jurisdiction within the legal system. Even in a civil case you are sitting before the same court (there are higher levels) that see criminal matters and you are pleading your case to the crown/judge, there is no state, district or county courts just federal. If you can convince him/her that you have been defrauded and you just want what was taken from you, you can also request the judge look into any related cases past or pending against the defendant. If the judge feels it’s warranted they can have his records pulled; if it turns out he’s got a lengthy file of fraud, theft etc it strengthens your case and again could push it into criminal matters if there is a pattern. I would also recommend looking into crown proceedings as it is extremely formal compared to what you see in the American legal system and they keep it up (about 90% of regular) in civil matters.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by rbk

It will sort of show up (Credit via your federal tax man) that his wages are currently being garnished (hard to gain employment but not impossible) This also prohibits him/her from acquiring any professional designations, sitting on certain boards/committees, acquiring licenses and in some cases from leaving the country; Sometimes permanently, in case if licenses etc.

It slips my mind the specific person, but recently on local news there was a story of what I would call a "con man" arrested. They displayed his public court cases covering some 10-15 years and I was struck by some headers IE: 2002 civil case: charge theft of property >$70k; petitioner withdrew the case. IE: 2005 civil case: charge theft of property >$25k; petitioner withdrew the case. ETC.. There were close to a dozen, some judgements but most were dropped.
They knew they would probably never see their property again, but the court records are forever and they show a pattern.