How you deal with crews on passages?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Lionshooter

I’d urge you to consider hiring someone like Captain Ron. Problem solved.

I write this stuff on the forum to warn others, I assure you that there was nothing humorous about the entire catastophy that took place.

[Zarih]

It seems very strange for me to charge crew money for food and fees. This is how I reason. I’m going from A to B. To make life easier I want crew to help with all the things needed. Diesel, docking fees etc are the same regardless of crew or not. The work for me which means they don’t pay.

I’ve had crew on for a canal passage and I made sure every one was fed etc. But we think differently.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Many thanks

Your contract is excellent, we can use it with very few changes since it covers just about everything. One thing to add will be crew or guests having a special endorsement on their passport. DO NOT allow this person on your boat. We were recently turned away at two countries and later found out the guest was a convicted sexual predator against a minor. His passport didn’t indicate this and we didn’t know until his passport was confiscated by interpol. Then he became our problem... a huge nightmare.

So there was nothing written anywhere, no way you could find out about this guys record? How then do you find out about a special endorsement on someone's passport? Call CBP?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by skipmac

So there was nothing written anywhere, no way you could find out about this guys record? How then do you find out about a special endorsement on someone's passport? Call CBP?

He had a standard US passport, nothing out of the ordinary until it was seized at the first check in point. Interpol has a new (one year old) policy of alerting countries of people convicted of sexual assault as they try to enter the country.

It’s a good policy, but we got stuck on the wrong side with this turd of a human and couldn’t get rid of him. The guy was a former employee I hadn’t seen in 30 years, let him on the boat and was hoping to catch up. Damn facebook.

[Lionshooter]

Back when I delivered yachts for Hirsch from Bradenton to St Thomas, I got my crew from Hirsch and their list of recommended captains and crew. I paid for the food on board and airfare home. They got to experience a week of sailing to the Virgins and a week exploring BVI. I never had a problem finding knowledgeable sailors to crew. It was always a fun trip.
Sounds like an all expenses paid for a 2 week vacation to me.

[Toys_with_time]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Many thanks

Your contract is excellent, we can use it with very few changes since it covers just about everything. One thing to add will be crew or guests having a special endorsement on their passport. DO NOT allow this person on your boat. We were recently turned away at two countries and later found out the guest was a convicted sexual predator against a minor. His passport didn’t indicate this and we didn’t know until his passport was confiscated by interpol. Then he became our problem... a huge nightmare.

Not good!!


If anyone else wants a copy of the contract please PM me with your email address

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Zarih

It seems very strange for me to charge crew money for food and fees. This is how I reason. I’m going from A to B. To make life easier I want crew to help with all the things needed. Diesel, docking fees etc are the same regardless of crew or not. The work for me which means they don’t pay.

I’ve had crew on for a canal passage and I made sure every one was fed etc. But we think differently.

It depends on the role of the crew.


If you want them to be devoted to work, then don't just pay their expenses -- pay them for their labor, too. This is a good arrangement. I've had pro crew before, and hope to have again. There's no issue of entertaining them -- they are there to serve. The fact that it's a great job where there is also a lot of fun, incidental to the work, makes it just that much better of an arrangement.



If they are there primarily to have fun, and are standing watches or whatever only on the side, then they should be paying you, and not only just the expenses. Unfortunately you have to be coded for charter to do it like this, for most flag states.


A mix between the two would mean they pay their own expenses, on most boats.


I don't really understand what role that is, where they are not professional crew being paid for their labor, but you pay their expenses. That would be maybe family and friends. On my boat, not volunteer crew. YMMV.

[CatNewBee]

... It seems to boil down to:

You get what you pay for.

It is anything between being a guest on your own boat (hiring captain and crew) and having guests on your boat (let them pay you to serve them).

[Kenomac]

The primary problem we encountered this season was guests being invited onboard to help crew who basically felt like they scored an all expense paid free vacation for two weeks. Contributed little if any for food, nothing for fuel or marinas that THEY wanted to visit and felt like the choice of places to see should be theirs. They got onboard and pretty much sat around and complained, didn’t help with meals or even clean up after themselves, then bailed out on any watch duties.

Next year will be different, we’ll stick with people we know better who wouldn’t dream of acting up his way.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Of course I expect from everybody on board to do it's duties on the schedules and not be lazy on watches risking the life of the others. Some

Easier said than done, of course This comes down to the advice given by others above, that all expectations have to be communicated properly. Especially with younger crew as well as potential language barriers.

And you never know how they will react in stress situations when all hands are needed. This are my main concerns - as long as it is easy sailing all will be good I guess.

Exactly right. And you can't predict how people will react, unless you have drilled them yourself "army style" for many months.

- Seasoned skipper as crew is great, professional, a lot of stories to tell, may be also a good advisor / coach - but you become the apprentice.

Very important point there, too. Since there can be only one skipper on the boat who has the final decision, a pro will not put his life into the hands of a less experienced sailor-owner. Instead it would turn your trip more into a delivery.

One additional comment about the skipper in charge being woken up a lot by inexperienced crew: This can be addressed by keeping the skipper out of the regular watch roster altogether, as he's always on "stand by".

[Toys_with_time]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The primary problem we encountered this season was guests being invited onboard to help crew who basically felt like they scored an all expense paid free vacation for two weeks. Contributed little if any for food, nothing for fuel or marinas that THEY wanted to visit and felt like the choice of places to see should be theirs. They got onboard and pretty much sat around and complained, didn’t help with meals or even clean up after themselves, then bailed out on any watch duties.

Next year will be different, we’ll stick with people we know better who wouldn’t dream of acting up his way.

Head for Northern Australia and suggest to your guests that they swim ashore for a cold beer at your expense. The Salties will take care of them if the stingers don't get them first.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The primary problem we encountered this season was guests being invited onboard to help crew who basically felt like they scored an all expense paid free vacation for two weeks. Contributed little if any for food, nothing for fuel or marinas that THEY wanted to visit and felt like the choice of places to see should be theirs. They got onboard and pretty much sat around and complained, didn’t help with meals or even clean up after themselves, then bailed out on any watch duties.

Next year will be different, we’ll stick with people we know better who wouldn’t dream of acting up his way.

That sounds like a serious failure of a meeting of the minds, on what each other's expectations of the arrangement were.


Like with any business deal, you have to be extremely, even painfully clear at the outset, and make sure they are extremely, even painfully clear, of what is expected, and then see if you can come to a very clear agreement everyone is happy with. Word to the wise: Whatever is left unsaid, will always be interpreted by both parties in their own way, in the way favorable to their own interests.


It's of course easier said than done; I've made my own mistakes from time to time. But you should start with something like "I am offering a position of volunteer crew for such and such a cruise from A to B on dates x through y. Dates and itinerary subject to change due to necessities of weather, repairs, supply, and other factors, but we commit to each other for the period of x through y. You will have x, y and z duties and you will pay for your share of a, b and c. I will provide x, y and z and pay exclusively for a, b and c. We will cruise and have fun together but we will share all the work and expenses. Boat rules are attached."


I think it's very important to describe the boat accurately, condition, any defects, gear on board (safety and otherwise), and prospective volunteer crew who are knowledgeable sailors may want to know something about how passages are planned, safety procedures, qualifications of the skipper.



The Rules should cover safety, cleaning up after one's self, how domestic tasks like cooking and cleaning are shared, watchkeeping standards (very important!), gear and clothing required, what not to bring, etc.


I think it's also useful to state specifically whether or not you expect volunteer crew to pay for gear they might break -- it's not obvious that they should, and stuff does get broken.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That sounds like a serious failure of a meeting of the minds, on what each other's expectations of the arrangement were.


Like with any business deal, you have to be extremely, even painfully clear at the outset, and make sure they are extremely, even painfully clear, of what is expected, and then see if you can come to a very clear agreement everyone is happy with. Word to the wise: Whatever is left unsaid, will always be interpreted by both parties in their own way, in the way favorable to their own interests.


It's of course easier said than done; I've made my own mistakes from time to time. But you should start with something like "I am offering a position of volunteer crew for such and such a cruise from A to B on dates x through y. Dates and itinerary subject to change due to necessities of weather, repairs, supply, and other factors, but we commit to each other for the period of x through y. You will have x, y and z duties and you will pay for your share of a, b and c. I will provide x, y and z and pay exclusively for a, b and c. We will cruise and have fun together but we will share all the work and expenses. Boat rules are attached."


I think it's very important to describe the boat accurately, condition, any defects, gear on board (safety and otherwise), and prospective volunteer crew who are knowledgeable sailors may want to know something about how passages are planned, safety procedures, qualifications of the skipper.



The Rules should cover safety, cleaning up after one's self, how domestic tasks like cooking and cleaning are shared, watchkeeping standards (very important!), gear and clothing required, what not to bring, etc.


I think it's also useful to state specifically whether or not you expect volunteer crew to pay for gear they might break -- it's not obvious that they should, and stuff does get broken.

This why we intend to use Mr Toy’s contract from now on, modified for our boat. Do you also have a contract I can look over for some ideas?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

This why we intend to use Mr Toy’s contract from now on, modified for our boat. Do you also have a contract I can look over for some ideas?

I don't use a contract -- I have been preferring to do it carefully but less formally. I use a clear exchange of emails.


Using a contract is the legally more solid way to do it, of course, but except for possible liability issues in case of an accident, it is pretty inconceivable that there could be any litigation over such an arrangement, so I prefer to leave it a bit less formal.


Concerning liability -- insurance is your first line of defense, and be careful with that. You can get further protection from liability with well crafted contract terms, but in the UK and with very good insurance, I don't bother with that. The litigious U.S. might be a different case.

[dansker]

Hey Cat Newbie.. (not so newbie really)

Like you I have experience hiring and managing at work, and find that skill also applies to screening crew, even friends and family crew.

As far as Im concerned there are little difference in the general personality assessment we apply at the office to the general sanity-check on how a person probably will react / behave onboard..

My main personal concerns.
General sailing skill level?
Don't always need to be high, but tells me what the person can do onboard.
Ive been thrilled with volunteer foodie crew who loves to cook,
and now look to fill that position unpaid but fully comped trip.
nothing like the smell of coffee & crepes in the morning.
*** ignoring the sailing skill-crew as you know what they need to do already :-)

Will the person accept chain of command?
No really, sometimes you get the feeling that "I know a lot more about this than skipper
and have been in situations where I had to overrule commanding officer.."
typically that come out pretty quickly, bait-em ask about scary situations, how it worked out,
were skipper lucky that you were onboard, did you save the day..?
IF there is something it will come pretty quickly,
But also, hearing "scary day, did not agree entirely with skipper, but we worked together
and in the long run his plan worked" tells you the guy knows his stuff and also know fight
onboard when chips down is a bad thing

Personally conflicts with other crews ?
Will my GF hate his (or her) gut?
Do the candidate crash with existing members of crew.
Do candidate jive?
Sometimes you know pretty quickly this is the kinda guy you will be chatting with
about politics and culture into the small hours of the morning.

What the others say, email correspondence get an idea what they do in general, and very clear what they will be doing onboard etc.. but everybody covered that already.

Just saying, paid / best friend / paying crews, same template, same HR processes.. because its a small boat, and one paid or volunteer cluster**** everybody drowns the same.
think back to the service, squad level, you don't bring a guy with a hunting license and a getto-blaster for a night raid, even if he paid to go.
*you got more leeway for west indies day-hopping trips with friends as you can unload them tomorrow.

Just my 2 cents.. Bo