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Old 19-08-2020, 19:34   #61
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

The catamaran vs. monohull debate is the classic rivalry debate.
I got myself a trimaran.
I won't start the debate over again here, but you can find each team's proponents' arguments and eventually make your own decision after you've gotten some experience sailing different sailboats. There are pluses and minuses to each type of boat.
Oh, by the way, lake sailing can also not be "representative" of sailing, what with fluky winds and no real discernible current. Lots of variables with sailing, but maybe first find out if you can hold your cookies on a sail. With seasickness, at first you're afraid you might die, which then turns to being afraid you won't.
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Old 21-08-2020, 06:23   #62
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

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The catamaran vs. monohull debate is the classic rivalry debate.
I got myself a trimaran.
I won't start the debate over again here, but you can find each team's proponents' arguments and eventually make your own decision after you've gotten some experience sailing different sailboats. There are pluses and minuses to each type of boat.
Oh, by the way, lake sailing can also not be "representative" of sailing, what with fluky winds and no real discernible current. Lots of variables with sailing, but maybe first find out if you can hold your cookies on a sail. With seasickness, at first you're afraid you might die, which then turns to being afraid you won't.
Your last few lines are funny. I started on the great lakes. Fresh water can kickup pretty fast. Use weather reports wisely.
As far as 'sick'. That only happened once, at the beginning of my first venture to Marsh harbor. But .. it was the anxiety over all the horror stories I was told. Turns out ... no problem.
p.s. that was 20 years ago. Fair winds and a star to steer by.
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Old 21-08-2020, 08:54   #63
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

I can't seem to get anybody to address the issue of cats capsizing. I'm sure it happens, there are videos on youtube. How hard is it for the ocean to overturn a cat? Once capsized, is that it for the cat?

Monohulls get knocked down and right themselves regularly, on youtube. Be nice when I'm not getting all my knowledge from the internet, but from sailing my boat.

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Originally Posted by snort View Post
The catamaran vs. monohull debate is the classic rivalry debate.
I got myself a trimaran.
I won't start the debate over again here, but you can find each team's proponents' arguments and eventually make your own decision after you've gotten some experience sailing different sailboats. There are pluses and minuses to each type of boat.
Oh, by the way, lake sailing can also not be "representative" of sailing, what with fluky winds and no real discernible current. Lots of variables with sailing, but maybe first find out if you can hold your cookies on a sail. With seasickness, at first you're afraid you might die, which then turns to being afraid you won't.
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Old 21-08-2020, 09:11   #64
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

Many sailors explore oceans in cats so there are some people who have that confidence. However, I rather think that a cat is very stable upside down, as are some monohull with wide flat decks. Some conservative people sail with a pod on the top of the mast which acts like a lifejacket blowing up a buoyant balloon so the cat does not invert. There are supposedly devices which relate sheets if the angle of heel threatens a capsize. The issue with lakes vs. the sea is essentially the waves. The waves are what roll boats if broadside on to steep curling waves. But I rather thing that cats get caught out by a hull ‘tripping’ on a wave by going too fast.
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Old 21-08-2020, 09:35   #65
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

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I can't seem to get anybody to address the issue of cats capsizing. I'm sure it happens, there are videos on youtube. How hard is it for the ocean to overturn a cat? Once capsized, is that it for the cat?

Monohulls get knocked down and right themselves regularly, on youtube. Be nice when I'm not getting all my knowledge from the internet, but from sailing my boat.

So, cats are capsizing now?


The only monohulls that withstand wipeouts with grace are racers. And they are hardly the best cruisers.



A regular cruising mono gets wiped out with much less grace - she gets flooded, all lockers open up and vomit their content into the horrible wet cold mess down below. Most of deck hardware gets swept bent or damaged. Etc. Most of the time there is damage to something - sheared engine mounts, bent mast, etc. Normal cruising boats today are not built to take serious knock-downs (mono or cats, no matter)



Let us not go into cruising monohulls getting knocked down and righting themselves regularly.


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Old 21-08-2020, 10:30   #66
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

Thanks barnakiel. Understand I am only able to go by what I find online, and from my friend with sailing experience. I'm looking for education here about this matter. I didn't mean to imply that a monohull boat can get knocked down, and pop right back up with no damage. I only am citing what I have been told, that a cat can capsize, and when it does, it will remain upside down. A damaged monohull seems preferable to an upside down cat out in the ocean.

I am here to get help and education. Any facts you can provide would be a great help. Do cats never capsize or get knocked over? Do they stay upside down?

Maybe it is so hard to capsize a cat, that it's not a real concern, and so I'm chasing red herrings. There is a vid on youtube of a cat carrying five people off the eastern coast of Australia a few years ago. Weather got rough and the cat capsized. Three dead, and two in the hospital. There was lots of video of the upside down cat.

This is a big question I need to answer. A cat is obviously more comfortable, and if they don't capsize, I'd prefer one. If they do, no way. My friend won't touch one. She has about 15 years' experience.

So, please, educate me.

Maybe I should start a new thread about this.


Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
So, cats are capsizing now?


The only monohulls that withstand wipeouts with grace are racers. And they are hardly the best cruisers.



A regular cruising mono gets wiped out with much less grace - she gets flooded, all lockers open up and vomit their content into the horrible wet cold mess down below. Most of deck hardware gets swept bent or damaged. Etc. Most of the time there is damage to something - sheared engine mounts, bent mast, etc. Normal cruising boats today are not built to take serious knock-downs (mono or cats, no matter)



Let us not go into cruising monohulls getting knocked down and righting themselves regularly.


barnakiel
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Old 21-08-2020, 11:53   #67
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

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Originally Posted by river251 View Post
Hi. My name is Jim. A lifelong, single bachelor, sadly. Aside from a welcome msg, this is my first post. I'm 65, nearing retirement (not sure when), and thinking about living on a sailboat. I have many questions, and I have never been on a boat. Period. Any kind. I went to a boat show in LA 30 years ago and wanted then to get a boat and lilve on board, but I never did. I've watched many youtube videos which have been helpful to a point. I have a close friend, a girlfriend from 40 years ago, who has spent many years living on a Morgan 41, and she has been very helpful.

I have benefited from forums before and know it's best to ask one question at a time. I'd like to sail the Caribbean, maybe someday to Europe. My budget is very limited, say a used Morgan.

My first big question is, is there a sailboat that I can pilot myself, alone? Can sailboats be adapted to do so?


Thanks. Maybe I can buy you a drink in a marina someday.

Jim
There are boats that you can pilot alone. You would be taking on extra risks by doing so for more than daysails.

The Morgan41 OutIsland would be a fine boat to live on, a regular M41 less so but still fine. For the Carribean the M41OI would be a great boat. Crossing the Atlantic, the M41 would be much better. The M41OI is optimised for the charter trade in the Caribbean where the sailing tends to be easier (barring hurricane season) so interior accommodations have been expanded at the expense of sailing ability.

To help folks give you better answers in the short term I suggest you update your profile to indicate "Looking" in the boat category and to give some at least approximate location where you are now. This will save answering the question repeatedly. Those two answers show under your UserName in the Webview.
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Old 21-08-2020, 12:33   #68
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

Cruising cats capsize way less frequently than cruising monos get badly wiped out, knocked down and capsized.


Off the hat, I can quickly recall 3 cats capsizing over last 15 years: the Med one, the Bahamas one and the Azores one.


I read about wiped out, knocked down and capsized monos on a pretty regular basis. When they are not sinking in N Atlantic, they start sinking between Tonga and NZ. Likely dozens of capsized and sunk monos per each capsized cat.



But it is not the frequency that truly counts here.


To me, it is way more about: "and what happened next?"



Well. A capsized cat becomes the most comfortable and stable life raft you can think of. With water, food, clothing and possibly also some comms to call out for help. They are big and easy to find for Hercules, SAR choppers, and easy to spot from a cargo.


A capsized mono either sinks, or comes back, most of the time with properly flooded cabin, broken mast and generally shattered. If it comes back without mast, it is nearly certain to capsize again very soon. A boat without mast gets very high Gs and will make you seasick and miserable next to already being in hypothermia and with concussion.

A mono is build to come back. But a human is not build to live in a washing machine for any extended amount of time.


Yes. Racers will get wiped out and come back without damage. They come back and keep on racing.


Are you a racer? Do you have a Mini, Class 40, Figaro, Imoca, etc. kind of boat?


ymmv



Assume your boat WILL capsize one day. Imagine the consequences, then ask yourself "what happens next?"



I am sailing a mono, for clarity.



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Old 21-08-2020, 16:49   #69
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

This article about the Queen's Birthday Storm might give you some perspective:
Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article

You're more likely to have a serious fall on a boat, fall overboard, get a body part caught in a winch or line (if you're careless) than capsize in a large catamaran.

If you're worried about sinking in a monohull, get an Etap or a Sadler.
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Old 21-08-2020, 19:54   #70
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

Quote:
Originally Posted by river251 View Post
Thanks barnakiel. Understand I am only able to go by what I find online, and from my friend with sailing experience. I'm looking for education here about this matter. I didn't mean to imply that a monohull boat can get knocked down, and pop right back up with no damage. I only am citing what I have been told, that a cat can capsize, and when it does, it will remain upside down. A damaged monohull seems preferable to an upside down cat out in the ocean.

I am here to get help and education. Any facts you can provide would be a great help. Do cats never capsize or get knocked over? Do they stay upside down?

Maybe it is so hard to capsize a cat, that it's not a real concern, and so I'm chasing red herrings. There is a vid on youtube of a cat carrying five people off the eastern coast of Australia a few years ago. Weather got rough and the cat capsized. Three dead, and two in the hospital. There was lots of video of the upside down cat.

This is a big question I need to answer. A cat is obviously more comfortable, and if they don't capsize, I'd prefer one. If they do, no way. My friend won't touch one. She has about 15 years' experience.

So, please, educate me.

Maybe I should start a new thread about this.


Thanks.
please please don't start yet another mono v cat thread !

i have raced monos and i now cruise cats. yes a lightweight cat will capsize...if you are silly, or very inexperienced or very very unlucky (i know the boat you refer to and they fell into 2 out of 3 of these).

but not all cats are lightweight. our 7.5mt cruising cat would be extremely hard to capsize...almost impossible by wind alone...but it could happen with waves etc, and the boat is not going to come back like a mono will

the big diff between cats and monos is that if you get into trouble, on a cat you are not going to be desperately trying to keep 5-10mt of lead afloat. a mono after a serious knock down is going to be a mess...quite possibly unsave-able (is that a word ?)

the underside of our bridgedeck is painted fluoro orange non-skid for a reason and i'd rather be sitting on that than praying my plastic liferaft is not going to disintegrate.

cheers,
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Old 28-08-2020, 14:07   #71
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

barnakiel, that was the kind of answer I needed, though I didn't know it. Thanks much, very helpful and educational.

May I ask why you personally choose to sail a monohull?

Thanks again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Cruising cats capsize way less frequently than cruising monos get badly wiped out, knocked down and capsized.


Off the hat, I can quickly recall 3 cats capsizing over last 15 years: the Med one, the Bahamas one and the Azores one.


I read about wiped out, knocked down and capsized monos on a pretty regular basis. When they are not sinking in N Atlantic, they start sinking between Tonga and NZ. Likely dozens of capsized and sunk monos per each capsized cat.



But it is not the frequency that truly counts here.


To me, it is way more about: "and what happened next?"



Well. A capsized cat becomes the most comfortable and stable life raft you can think of. With water, food, clothing and possibly also some comms to call out for help. They are big and easy to find for Hercules, SAR choppers, and easy to spot from a cargo.


A capsized mono either sinks, or comes back, most of the time with properly flooded cabin, broken mast and generally shattered. If it comes back without mast, it is nearly certain to capsize again very soon. A boat without mast gets very high Gs and will make you seasick and miserable next to already being in hypothermia and with concussion.

A mono is build to come back. But a human is not build to live in a washing machine for any extended amount of time.


Yes. Racers will get wiped out and come back without damage. They come back and keep on racing.


Are you a racer? Do you have a Mini, Class 40, Figaro, Imoca, etc. kind of boat?


ymmv



Assume your boat WILL capsize one day. Imagine the consequences, then ask yourself "what happens next?"



I am sailing a mono, for clarity.



barnakiel
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Old 28-08-2020, 14:11   #72
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

Snort, there is a couple with videos on youtube about cats vs monohulls. I don't know if they know what they are talking about, but they mention the capsize question, and say in a big cat like theirs, it's not likely. They are in a 40' cat, quite expensive.

How big of a cat are you talking about roughly? when is it big enough?

I know there's probably no definitive answer, but interested in your thoughts.

Thanks again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by snort View Post
This article about the Queen's Birthday Storm might give you some perspective:
Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article

You're more likely to have a serious fall on a boat, fall overboard, get a body part caught in a winch or line (if you're careless) than capsize in a large catamaran.

If you're worried about sinking in a monohull, get an Etap or a Sadler.
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Old 28-08-2020, 14:18   #73
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

Chrisr, thanks so much for the serious answer. You and barnakeil are giving me some good perspective. What do you think about a 28' cat? Is that a different story from the safeness of your 40' or no?

Sorry for starting an old debate again, it's just I wasn't around for the first ones... Ford vs Chevy, Fender vs Gibson, Nikon vs Canon...I guess they keep coming back because it's what people want to know....

Thank you much sir.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisr View Post
please please don't start yet another mono v cat thread !

i have raced monos and i now cruise cats. yes a lightweight cat will capsize...if you are silly, or very inexperienced or very very unlucky (i know the boat you refer to and they fell into 2 out of 3 of these).

but not all cats are lightweight. our 7.5mt cruising cat would be extremely hard to capsize...almost impossible by wind alone...but it could happen with waves etc, and the boat is not going to come back like a mono will

the big diff between cats and monos is that if you get into trouble, on a cat you are not going to be desperately trying to keep 5-10mt of lead afloat. a mono after a serious knock down is going to be a mess...quite possibly unsave-able (is that a word ?)

the underside of our bridgedeck is painted fluoro orange non-skid for a reason and i'd rather be sitting on that than praying my plastic liferaft is not going to disintegrate.

cheers,
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Old 28-08-2020, 14:51   #74
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

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barnakiel, that was the kind of answer I needed, though I didn't know it. Thanks much, very helpful and educational.

May I ask why you personally choose to sail a monohull?

Thanks again.

Well, because that's what I have.


And yet, when ground swell starts rolling us in Caribbean anchorages ... I longingly look at cats ... sitting flat, owners beaming ...



b.
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Old 28-08-2020, 14:59   #75
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Re: Hi, first question about living aboard life

Cats don't right themselves, period. During my 6 years circumnavigation the risks to capsize due to weather is small! To be able to weather storms and to buy a seaworthy boat is the key!!. Don't challenge yourself to sail into a hurricane. Don't buy a yoghurt cup style boat, built for luxury only, not sailing. Nowedays forecasts can be accurate for 4 days ahead while at sea anywhere so be prepared to change your planned leg. All this applies to any boat. I am a cruiser, not in a hurry, solo sailing a 48 year old Halberg Rassy Rasmus 35. Myself 71. I have weathered many storms in the 60+ knots. I could not imagine me with a big cat allone.
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