Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

[Barra]

One thought for you - how set are you on cruising the med on a cat?

Havng spent 2 seasons here now i can say im getting a bit tired of the 50% cat surcharge ( and sometimes more). If budget is a big part of the decision then going mono will save you a packet in this part of the world i can tell you. There are also many smaller marinas and ports that cant cope with even modest beam cats.

So many times we come into marina anchorages past "cat alley" ie where the bigger cats especially anchor out rather than tie up to save a small fortune in berthing. ( having said that anchoring out is more comfortable on a cat too and we prefer it but at times you need a berth)

Just my 2c as in hindsight if my wife had let me may well have done med on a mono. Now the Caribbean and pacific thats a different story....

Re budget we work on 2000 euro a month including some routine maintenance and the odd shoreside excursion for a few days. Thats a pretty comfortable lifestyle.

Cheers
Barra

[goboatingnow]

Med and Cats = expensive , teh marinas are not setup for them, rather like trying to drive a SUV in Paris.

Dave

[valhalla360]

I understand why they charge extra for 20-25' beam boats. But if you have a narrow beam cat, have people had any luck arguing they take up no more space than a mono?

Some marina's in the USA charge extra for cats but they've never enforced it as we are only 14' wide.

[monte]

most marinas are 1.5 x the price, some are the same price as mono's (Cartegena) some use a strange LxW calculaton (Canne), some are expensive like 200EU Ibiza, some are cheap, like 25EU (La Ciotat) sombouys are cheap or free (formentera) some are expensive like 50 EU (porquoles, calanques) It all depends where and when. Recently sailing in Southern Spain we stopped in high season at a good marina in Roccela Ionica where the price was 40 EU, I wanted to tell them they were too cheap and should be charging more like 70EU to match the comppetition, but I kept my mouth shut for anyone following behind... the next marina which was no better or worse, same coastline was 100EU. I did tell them they were too expensive! So its very hit and miss with marinas.
Heres our expenses to date this year...

[goboatingnow]

IN france, bertage is almost always rented on a square metre basis, ie the rate is length of boat x width of berth ( not boat).

also typically you will find a 15 metre cutoff, below 15m will be cheaper per sam then above, and often if you find only a 15m plus berth , yet you are below 15m, you will pay as per 15m x berth width.



dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by monte

most marinas are 1.5 x the price, some are the same price as mono's (Cartegena) some use a strange LxW calculaton (Canne), some are expensive like 200EU Ibiza, some are cheap, like 25EU (La Ciotat) sombouys are cheap or free (formentera) some are expensive like 50 EU (porquoles, calanques) It all depends where and when. Recently sailing in Southern Spain we stopped in high season at a good marina in Roccela Ionica where the price was 40 EU, I wanted to tell them they were too cheap and should be charging more like 70EU to match the comppetition, but I kept my mouth shut for anyone following behind... the next marina which was no better or worse, same coastline was 100EU. I did tell them they were too expensive! So its very hit and miss with marinas.
Heres our expenses to date this year...

over €1000-1200 euros a month is a lot of money on food, that must include a few nights out.!!! ( especially if only two of you

in the Cotz D'azure in summer 10,11,12 , we averaged about 20-25 euros a day for two for food and that included occasional lunch out ( never dinner), this was mostly none meat diets, like breads, cheeses, tomatoes, seasonal fruits, yoghurt and lovely €1/litre co-op wine.

Dave

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by monte

most marinas are 1.5 x the price, some are the same price as mono's (Cartegena) some use a strange LxW calculaton (Canne), some are expensive like 200EU Ibiza, some are cheap, like 25EU (La Ciotat) sombouys are cheap or free (formentera) some are expensive like 50 EU (porquoles, calanques) It all depends where and when. Recently sailing in Southern Spain we stopped in high season at a good marina in Roccela Ionica where the price was 40 EU, I wanted to tell them they were too cheap and should be charging more like 70EU to match the comppetition, but I kept my mouth shut for anyone following behind... the next marina which was no better or worse, same coastline was 100EU. I did tell them they were too expensive! So its very hit and miss with marinas.
Heres our expenses to date this year...

That's good info but for reference, how much of the time are you in marinas?

[Barra]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I understand why they charge extra for 20-25' beam boats. But if you have a narrow beam cat, have people had any luck arguing they take up no more space than a mono?

Some marina's in the USA charge extra for cats but they've never enforced it as we are only 14' wide.

Mate i had one clown in Croatia try and charge me 1.5 times for a mooring buoy! Ie commonsense often doesnt come into it. My pet hate is when you berth alongside and still get the 50% surcharge... why????

[Barra]

Originally Posted by monte

most marinas are 1.5 x the price, some are the same price as mono's (Cartegena) some use a strange LxW calculaton (Canne), some are expensive like 200EU Ibiza, some are cheap, like 25EU (La Ciotat) sombouys are cheap or free (formentera) some are expensive like 50 EU (porquoles, calanques) It all depends where and when. Recently sailing in Southern Spain we stopped in high season at a good marina in Roccela Ionica where the price was 40 EU, I wanted to tell them they were too cheap and should be charging more like 70EU to match the comppetition, but I kept my mouth shut for anyone following behind... the next marinawhich was no better or worse, same coastline was 100EU. I did tell them they were too expensive! So its very hit and miss with marinas.
Heres our expenses to date this year...

Mmmm roccella. How good was their meter long pizza? We stayed an extra night just cos we cudnt believe how reasonable their cat prices were.

Im sure that graph will be jumping up a bit now your in croatia. Dont sweat it though you will make it all back in greece. Cant get close to my budget here even eating out twice a day.

[monte]

oh sounds good barra, don;t tempt me !
goatboating, sorry that includes drink as well haha yeah we do get lazy and eat out a bit, but thats just 15EU a day each over a month.. we never seem to find those cheap backstreet restaurants with great food..
Val, it depends, only when we need to or want to visit something on land. Mostly about 1-2 nights/week
We could definitely lower the budget, (part of the reason we are keeping track of costs this year..)

[Invictus69]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Greece didnt go bankrupt. The EU is the largest and most powerful economic area on the world. It will not be allowed to fail.

Portugal is already improving , Spain has got a commitment to finance bank debt out of ecb funding rather them sovereign , so its ok.

None of these macro economic issues will affect the OP in any meaningful way.

Dave

It is not my intention to make this into a debate about the financial situation in the EU, but I agree that the situation will get much worse than it is. Overall purchasing power is declining and maybe some prices would go down, overall quality of service will also go down (Have you been to Greece recently?), overall safety will go down and intrusion by various authorities/regulation/tax/fees will go up (remember, as a boat owner you are the rich guy - the 1%!)

As competitiveness goes down (people being demotivated to invest and open a business in a depressed and over-regulated environment). prices actually may start going up in the purchasing power context.

[Invictus69]

Santorini with no electricity for 4 days!

Fourth day of power cuts in Santorini | GRReporter.info- News from Greece - Breaking News, Business, Sport, Multimedia and Video.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Invictus69

It is not my intention to make this into a debate about the financial situation in the EU, but I agree that the situation will get much worse than it is. (...)

"...The downgrading of Greek government debt to junk bond status in April 2010 created alarm in financial markets, with bond yields rising so high, that private capital markets were practically no longer available for Greece as a funding source. On 2 May 2010, the Eurozone countries and the IMF agreed on a €110 billion bailout loan for Greece..."

"...The payment of the bailout was scheduled to happen in several disbursements from May 2010 until June 2013. Due to a worsened recession and the fact that Greece had worked slower than expected to comply with point 2 and 3 above, there was a need one year later to offer Greece both more time and money in the attempt to restore the economy. In October 2011, Eurozone leaders consequently agreed to offer a second €130 billion bailout loan for Greece, ..."

I am afraid as long as masses do not understand what they can read, there is no further need to write anything.

Hard to say whether it is because people cannot understand what they are reading or rather because they do not want to hear what is being told.

And Greece is not the only Mediterranean country with a problem. Cruisers will be affected unless their (mostly German) governments buy them another year or two of time (meanwhile re-structuring their own assets to immunize before a major EUR zone financial and political disaster).

b.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Invictus69

It is not my intention to make this into a debate about the financial situation in the EU, but I agree that the situation will get much worse than it is. Overall purchasing power is declining and maybe some prices would go down, overall quality of service will also go down (Have you been to Greece recently?), overall safety will go down and intrusion by various authorities/regulation/tax/fees will go up (remember, as a boat owner you are the rich guy - the 1%!)

As competitiveness goes down (people being demotivated to invest and open a business in a depressed and over-regulated environment). prices actually may start going up in the purchasing power context.

the EU is not Greece, and yes I have been there recently , it has its problems, but the Euro will not fail and greece will recover and will be the wiser for it.

Dave

[Invictus69]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

the EU is not Greece, and yes I have been there recently , it has its problems, but the Euro will not fail and greece will recover and will be the wiser for it.

Dave

Unless you work a the EU in Brussels or your real name is Jose Manuel Barroso, I can hardly take that you actually believe that "....Greece will recover and will be wiser". The overregulated and corrupt welfare state concept based on government spending doesn't work - period.

But as I said, let's talk about the beauty of sailing but be prepared to deal with ever increasing government bureaucracy, costs and frustrations.

I am going down in Sicily at the end of the month, so will take some of your advices on board - thanks for that.

Cheers!