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Old 26-03-2020, 12:19   #121
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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So you've taken up a sea dayak existence without the sea dayaks survival skills base in a place where the climate is not suitable and ultimately you are totally dependent upon the products of the civilizations you are fleeing. Is that prudent?

Let me point out that the North Pacific, is everything north of the equator.....That's a lot of seascape!!.... Let's not forget "flight of fancy"...... It is pure fancy. What could happen if civilization were faced with a far more deadly pestilence than the Wuhan Virus......... Something to have fun with, not something to take seriously.....something to get people thinking about what they might do out of panic, or whatever, and how it might develop............. With "social distancing" in effect, speculating on such things qualifies as mentally challenging entertainment. I don't think this even remotely relates to the head hunting canibals called "Sea Dayaks".....
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Old 26-03-2020, 19:00   #122
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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Let me point out that the North Pacific, is everything north of the equator.....That's a lot of seascape!!.... Let's not forget "flight of fancy"...... It is pure fancy. What could happen if civilization were faced with a far more deadly pestilence than the Wuhan Virus......... Something to have fun with, not something to take seriously.....something to get people thinking about what they might do out of panic, or whatever, and how it might develop............. With "social distancing" in effect, speculating on such things qualifies as mentally challenging entertainment. I don't think this even remotely relates to the head hunting canibals called "Sea Dayaks".....
I don't think the sea dayaks were canibals mainly seafood eaters. The land dayaks were head hunters but I don't know if they are their victims. Some of the melanesians and the polynesians tucked into a homo erectus hamburger occasionally.

If the ports are to remain closed you may want to download a few long pig recipes and brush up on canibal etiquette.
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Old 27-03-2020, 07:47   #123
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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I don't think the sea dayaks were canibals mainly seafood eaters. The land dayaks were head hunters but I don't know if they are their victims. Some of the melanesians and the polynesians tucked into a homo erectus hamburger occasionally.

If the ports are to remain closed you may want to download a few long pig recipes and brush up on canibal etiquette.

From what I've read about them, they definitely were "cannibals of opportunity".... I'm sure seafood made up most of their diets. If you have to resort to cannibalism at sea, you are definitely doing something wrong. I mentioned the infamous "garbage patch" as a resource, and I was being completely serious. Among other things, a very large percentage of the flotsam is lost fishing gear..... nets, floats, etc. Sea life colonizes virtually anything afloat. There is no telling what you might find there, and of course small life brings in larger things.... that's the way the food chain works. I may be badly mistaken, but I sincerely doubt that it is a vast "dead zone".



In any case, I was merely trying to paint a chapter in a fictitious "SHTF" survival narrative, where in an environment of general panic, facing the relentless advance of a lethal virus, various groups react in different ways as chaos ensues. Some of us with yachts might choose the sea as the most effective barrier against disease this side of the River Styx. They would be a diverse group from up and down the coast. I was looking only at American Left Coasters... as that's my part of the world. Some would be friends and coordinate together, others would set out on their own, not knowing of others, and likely at sea they would ultimately find people from Oz and Nz, perhaps Japan and China, and some of the islands. Having been an inventor all my life and also an outdoorsman, I learned long ago that my ideas are seldom "original thoughts".. our minds tend to follow in the same tracks, and the remote places I've gone to far off the beaten path always show evidence that someone else has been drawn to that same place..... if you take the time to look deeply enough. Hours of beating brush, climbing over deadfalls, wading through swampy ground to get to that outcrop in the wilderness that for some reason drew you, and while sitting on it reveling in your accomplishment, enjoying the remoteness and solitude, sipping from your water bottle, you look down and see flint chips...... among boulders of granite. The point is that if I decide that my best chance of survival is to take to the sea, you can bet that the thought has crossed the minds of many other people...... and some percentage will actually do it. You can also bet that most of us will choose a latitude between 15 and 30 deg, as a comfortable temperate zone, and that we will migrate between north and south latitudes depending on the cyclone season. This is likely to be the case in the Pacific and the Atlantic oceans. The Indian Ocean is a bit of a different story. The result would be that people would inevitably find each other, and over time, fear of infection from other boats would dissipate for obvious reasons, and a community spirit would develop. Broadcast news from shore would cease to exist, and the hunger for news of what was happening back home would grow acute. Rumor would be rampant. A few surviving ham radio operators using solar power might periodically get on the air, and boats with SSB would have an information advantage, people staying glued to the radio for tidbits to share.



What is the next chapter of survival at sea? Considering the 119 days at sea, completely unprepared that the crew of the Rose Noelle survived IN GOOD SHAPE, it seems reasonable that well prepared people should be able to exist almost indefinitely.


H.W.
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Old 27-03-2020, 18:47   #124
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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From what I've read about them, they definitely were "cannibals of opportunity".... I'm sure seafood made up most of their diets. If you have to resort to cannibalism at sea, you are definitely doing something wrong. I mentioned the infamous "garbage patch" as a resource, and I was being completely serious. Among other things, a very large percentage of the flotsam is lost fishing gear..... nets, floats, etc. Sea life colonizes virtually anything afloat. There is no telling what you might find there, and of course small life brings in larger things.... that's the way the food chain works. I may be badly mistaken, but I sincerely doubt that it is a vast "dead zone".



In any case, I was merely trying to paint a chapter in a fictitious "SHTF" survival narrative, where in an environment of general panic, facing the relentless advance of a lethal virus, various groups react in different ways as chaos ensues. Some of us with yachts might choose the sea as the most effective barrier against disease this side of the River Styx. They would be a diverse group from up and down the coast. I was looking only at American Left Coasters... as that's my part of the world. Some would be friends and coordinate together, others would set out on their own, not knowing of others, and likely at sea they would ultimately find people from Oz and Nz, perhaps Japan and China, and some of the islands. Having been an inventor all my life and also an outdoorsman, I learned long ago that my ideas are seldom "original thoughts".. our minds tend to follow in the same tracks, and the remote places I've gone to far off the beaten path always show evidence that someone else has been drawn to that same place..... if you take the time to look deeply enough. Hours of beating brush, climbing over deadfalls, wading through swampy ground to get to that outcrop in the wilderness that for some reason drew you, and while sitting on it reveling in your accomplishment, enjoying the remoteness and solitude, sipping from your water bottle, you look down and see flint chips...... among boulders of granite. The point is that if I decide that my best chance of survival is to take to the sea, you can bet that the thought has crossed the minds of many other people...... and some percentage will actually do it. You can also bet that most of us will choose a latitude between 15 and 30 deg, as a comfortable temperate zone, and that we will migrate between north and south latitudes depending on the cyclone season. This is likely to be the case in the Pacific and the Atlantic oceans. The Indian Ocean is a bit of a different story. The result would be that people would inevitably find each other, and over time, fear of infection from other boats would dissipate for obvious reasons, and a community spirit would develop. Broadcast news from shore would cease to exist, and the hunger for news of what was happening back home would grow acute. Rumor would be rampant. A few surviving ham radio operators using solar power might periodically get on the air, and boats with SSB would have an information advantage, people staying glued to the radio for tidbits to share.



What is the next chapter of survival at sea? Considering the 119 days at sea, completely unprepared that the crew of the Rose Noelle survived IN GOOD SHAPE, it seems reasonable that well prepared people should be able to exist almost indefinitely.


H.W.


It’s worth reading “ The life of Pi” . The novel gives a good fictional description of potential survival at sea techniques regarding food and water. I had exactly the same model lifeboat that was used in the movie and couldn’t imagine drifting aimlessly at sea for hundreds of days
The Rose Noelle was quite well provisioned from my reading of John Glennies book and it seemed like mental health could be more of an issue than starvation ......as evidenced by the journey of the crew of “ The Essex” after she was sunk by a whale. The social order collapsed quickly during the 90 days that the crew endured adrift in the whaleboats and it has been suggested that cannibalism occurred during the ordeal as it did in the Andes aircraft crash that left survivors isolated and starving.
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Old 29-03-2020, 12:24   #125
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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It’s worth reading “ The life of Pi” . The novel gives a good fictional description of potential survival at sea techniques regarding food and water. I had exactly the same model lifeboat that was used in the movie and couldn’t imagine drifting aimlessly at sea for hundreds of days
The Rose Noelle was quite well provisioned from my reading of John Glennies book and it seemed like mental health could be more of an issue than starvation ......as evidenced by the journey of the crew of “ The Essex” after she was sunk by a whale. The social order collapsed quickly during the 90 days that the crew endured adrift in the whaleboats and it has been suggested that cannibalism occurred during the ordeal as it did in the Andes aircraft crash that left survivors isolated and starving.

I've read a number of true survival stories of this sort, including one where a man survived in a so called life raft..... I call them "death rafts" drifting on the Atlantic for an extended period of time, ultimately making it to one of the islands in the Caribbean. He survived barely.... by eating whatever he could.... the raft drew some fish, and struggled to make water using solar stills that really didn't work as they were supposed to. I just found it.... Couldn't remember the title. Adrift... 76 days lost at sea.


These sagas have little to do with the scenario we are talking about except to explore the extent of human ingenuity. In our case people would have set to sea well prepared for an indefinite stay of years perhaps.... as per their idea of well prepared, and the constraints of preparation time and supply availability. Well prepared in terms of dry goods, fishing gear, probably canned and dried fruits and veggies, means of growing greens and / or sprouts, spares , tools, etc...... and companions who they hoped would help them meet the challenge.


Compared to extreme sailboat racing, something like this would make a fantastic challenge. Not an actual competition for a winner, but a challenge to explore life at sea. The contestants would be subject to certain rules to make it "real", including boat tonnages and crew size limits or perhaps a max of 2 adults. The target time would exceed 1000 days enough to break the record. Cooperation among participant boats would be encouraged...... Everybody who completes it is a "winner". Like the Golden Globe, there would be a provision for video drops, and probably periodic communication with friends and family due to the long time period.... subject to limits on the substance. The quantity of supplies would not even remotely approach the 3 year mark, requiring participants to harvest from the sea, and grow things. There would be no maximum time, only a minimum qualifying time. Sponsorship might be based on days at sea. Like the GGR, it would be a slow running challenge. Participants would only be as isolated as they chose, and switching between boats at sea would be permissible. If two crew found themselves incompatible, one might swap boats. If one crew member wanted to abort, and the other didn't, they could negotiate an exchange with another boat, etc.



The nature of a challenge like this would mean few participants, and a fair number of quitters. A great deal could be learned from this.






H.W.
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Old 29-03-2020, 12:32   #126
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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I don't think the sea dayaks were canibals mainly seafood eaters. The land dayaks were head hunters but I don't know if they are their victims. Some of the melanesians and the polynesians tucked into a homo erectus hamburger occasionally.

If the ports are to remain closed you may want to download a few long pig recipes and brush up on canibal etiquette.
The other other white meat.
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Old 31-03-2020, 15:30   #127
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

I just stopped by out of curiosity. Some stuff interesting, some (political) not so much.
Thanx to the person who recomended 'Sailing the Farm'. I'll check that out. More than a few thought it funny that I raised veggies on my boat. Shocked that the pretty flowers were in fact Yams.
I must comment about 'preppers'. One can easily live off productive land. I've done it to prove it. Followed wolves around N. Idaho for a few weeks taking photos.
Hunted and fished. Bow with arrows. Handgun for obnoxious or obusive animals like some humans.
The thing is, the more people you have in any one place the worse and more difficult it will be. Seriously ... why bring the town with you? And certainly if the other person is that bad, how ya gonna trade them off? It ain't like barter town in the movie.
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Old 31-03-2020, 16:11   #128
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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The thing is, the more people you have in any one place the worse and more difficult it will be. Seriously ... why bring the town with you? And certainly if the other person is that bad, how ya gonna trade them off? It ain't like barter town in the movie.
Fleeing on a boat or hunkering down in the country might work for a zombie apocalypse or some sort of disaster leading to civilization breakdown, but there's no fleeing a global pandemic, no matter how romantic it might sound. The only constructive response is to work together.

The good news is that... so far, humanity seems to be rising to the occasion:

The horror films got it wrong. This virus has turned us into caring neighbours

(Yes it's somebody's opinion, but with examples and links)
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Old 31-03-2020, 19:27   #129
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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Fleeing on a boat or hunkering down in the country might work for a zombie apocalypse or some sort of disaster leading to civilization breakdown, but there's no fleeing a global pandemic, no matter how romantic it might sound. The only constructive response is to work together.

The good news is that... so far, humanity seems to be rising to the occasion:

The horror films got it wrong. This virus has turned us into caring neighbours

(Yes it's somebody's opinion, but with examples and links)

As a teen long ago, my best friend and I were passionate about learning to live off the land. We collected every survival book we could find, learned what was edible and how to prepare it........ some published info turned out to be pure BS. We hunted and fished, practiced building various kinds of traps and using them. We took quite a few multi day trips into the back country with no food at all, trying to avoid the usual trap of developing a dependence on one food source such as fish........ It was all pure fun, and some of it brutally difficult
It became obvious that few people could survive in the wilds for any length of time, and that in a situation where lots of people were forced to depend on what they could gather, hunt, and fish, those resources would be exhausted very very quickly. As a result, we tended toward more and more desolate and forbidding areas in the realization that these were the areas others would avoid in such a situation, believing them to be unsurvivable........... Nothing could be further from the truth as it turns out, but you have to know what you are looking for. The Shoshone, Ute, Paiute, an Modoc, among others roamed and survived in some of those places. Their group number were small, but they understood the importance of community and mutual cooperation. The harsher the situation, the more important that is. We all have different skills, and different things to offer, and when we learn to work together for the common good, we do well. The rugged individualist in that situation is at a disadvantage in many ways.

We were only two...... but we functioned both as a team when necessary and independently meshing better than most people could have. There was no dominance thing as there often is with people, no leader / follower, we built on each others ideas, observations, and skills.


A community at sea in a survival situation would be subject to all the usual problems of relationships and group dynamics, and would probably swap partners at times, but being on individual boats free to associate of disassociate, they would probably cluster into congenial groups at times, go separate directions, perhaps meet up with other groups or individual boats, some might go long periods away from any other boats, but humans are gregarious, so I suspect that a loose community would result. Community has many meanings. Here we have a community.......Many of us will never meet in person, and we may interact directly and privately, or merely by responding and sharing ideas with the group. The physical community I live in has about 12 people within what would be the area of several city blocks, and the rest of the community members spread out over a huge area, some being as much as 20 miles away. Some of us rarely see each other, but that community bond is universal..........But that's the way rural life is. Sea life in this situation would probably develop into a similar situation.... but more dynamic, and more interactive due to the pressures of survival.



H.W.
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Old 31-03-2020, 23:12   #130
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

9 pages of great thread with great ideas seasoned with philosophies.
Among the self sufficiency the ideas from sprouting to dehydrating to brewing, I saw nothing about eating what you catch. Maybe that's just a given so not worth mentioning. I dunno. But in as much as it would be a part of self sufficiency, I am curious as to why I see no mention of it.


But here's what I really want to know.


Where the pandemic is all about a virus, ciguatera is reported to increasingly be a cruisers malady because we eat what we catch, or somebody else caught and shared. And where it use to be confined to reef fish, it is now reported to be found in mahi mahi and tuna.


So fishing for dinner now feels something like the COVID-19 crapshoot, and has long before I ever heard of Wuhan.
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Old 01-04-2020, 05:55   #131
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

I think the story could use more salvage opportunities. There are lots of semi submerged shipping containers floating around. Large logs floating around. Maybe build a floating island, or even an adrift ship. I would hope there will be some desert islands in it. And Polynesian seafarer type craft. Ever check out Herb Kane's paintings?
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Old 01-04-2020, 08:55   #132
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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9 pages of great thread with great ideas seasoned with philosophies.
Among the self sufficiency the ideas from sprouting to dehydrating to brewing, I saw nothing about eating what you catch. Maybe that's just a given so not worth mentioning. I dunno. But in as much as it would be a part of self sufficiency, I am curious as to why I see no mention of it.


But here's what I really want to know.


Where the pandemic is all about a virus, ciguatera is reported to increasingly be a cruisers malady because we eat what we catch, or somebody else caught and shared. And where it use to be confined to reef fish, it is now reported to be found in mahi mahi and tuna.


So fishing for dinner now feels something like the COVID-19 crapshoot, and has long before I ever heard of Wuhan.

I didn't mention catching fish because it's pretty obvious........


Ciguatera is definitely a real concern........... I hadn't heard of it in Pelagic fish to any significant degree, and I suspect that it has to do with proximity to reef environments. One of the avoidance methods has been to feed some to one of the ship's cats. A useful creature to have along. Ciguatera is much more of a problem in the viscera than the meat itself. It tends to concentrate in the organs. There are methods for testing, but none are practical other than the cat test.... or some other animal. The problem is concentration up the food chain, just like DDT. Thus while the concentration in small reef fish may be small, the predators that eat them will have a higher concentration, so something like a reef shark would probably be the highest. Tuna and Mahi Mahi are definite candidates as they eat smaller fish, but their pelagic nature would tend to make them less of a problem than say barracuda or grouper. Areas in the Caribbean seem to be particular problem areas, but it is showing up in Polynesia.... people are still eating fish in many of those places, and seem to know where they can and cannot take fish. So far there is no known way to detox the fish.


In a community environment, say half a dozen boats, you would tend to draw seabirds, which would be great test subjects for ciguaterra. When you catch fish, feed the viscera to them.... perhaps on some sort of makeshift raft so the fish do not get it. There is little on birds and ciguaterra, but it is known to effect them. As the greatest concentration is in the internal organs, brain, and spine, any testing on live animals should involve feeding these specific parts to get the maximum result in the minimum time.



I've given this problem a lot of thought..... obviously. Another strategy would be to avoid the tropics, and areas with coral reefs and staying in the temperate zones as much as possible, but comfort concerns would tend to drive people to the 30 or less deg latitudes a lot of the year....... heating fuel in the open sea would be a challenge. Migrating to higher latitudes (north or south) with the seasons would make sense in terms of reducing these concerns, and preserving your catch in these areas would also make sense.


H.W.
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Old 01-04-2020, 09:09   #133
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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I think the story could use more salvage opportunities. There are lots of semi submerged shipping containers floating around. Large logs floating around. Maybe build a floating island, or even an adrift ship. I would hope there will be some desert islands in it. And Polynesian seafarer type craft. Ever check out Herb Kane's paintings?

I did mention salvage opportunities..... That's part of the idea of using the so called "garbage patch". It has the tendency to aggregate "junk". I don't know how long the buoyance of a floating log remains, but anything made of them would likely be for calm weather only, and of course as fuel, they are likely to be useless. No way to process them and dry them out realistically, hence my suggestion of planning to trawl for plastics as a fuel source. The method for burning plastics cleanly, is to use two stages... generate vapor controllable, and burn it. To keep things under control you have to control the heat to the fuel source... limiting that heat to control vaporization / pyrolysis. Done properly there is no smoke or stink, because there is no unburned material.


It is doubtful that one would find any containers, and there is essentially no such thing as a "desert island" anymore. There are uninhabited islands that are ALL claimed by someone. I mentioned the islands north of the Hawaiian islands that are all restricted access / part of huge marine reserve. There are also remote atolls and reefs in the vicinity of Kiribati, and parts of Polynesia, but these are all in territorial waters, and many are used by locals on a somewhat regular basis. Islands would seem to be out if you are trying to avoid humanity.... nor would you be welcome.




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Old 01-04-2020, 09:53   #134
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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I didn't mention catching fish because it's pretty obvious........


Ciguatera is definitely a real concern........... I hadn't heard of it in Pelagic fish to any significant degree, and I suspect that it has to do with proximity to reef environments. One of the avoidance methods has been to feed some to one of the ship's cats. A useful creature to have along. Ciguatera is much more of a problem in the viscera than the meat itself. It tends to concentrate in the organs. There are methods for testing, but none are practical other than the cat test.... or some other animal. The problem is concentration up the food chain, just like DDT. Thus while the concentration in small reef fish may be small, the predators that eat them will have a higher concentration, so something like a reef shark would probably be the highest. Tuna and Mahi Mahi are definite candidates as they eat smaller fish, but their pelagic nature would tend to make them less of a problem than say barracuda or grouper. Areas in the Caribbean seem to be particular problem areas, but it is showing up in Polynesia.... people are still eating fish in many of those places, and seem to know where they can and cannot take fish. So far there is no known way to detox the fish.


In a community environment, say half a dozen boats, you would tend to draw seabirds, which would be great test subjects for ciguaterra. When you catch fish, feed the viscera to them.... perhaps on some sort of makeshift raft so the fish do not get it. There is little on birds and ciguaterra, but it is known to effect them. As the greatest concentration is in the internal organs, brain, and spine, any testing on live animals should involve feeding these specific parts to get the maximum result in the minimum time.



I've given this problem a lot of thought..... obviously. Another strategy would be to avoid the tropics, and areas with coral reefs and staying in the temperate zones as much as possible, but comfort concerns would tend to drive people to the 30 or less deg latitudes a lot of the year....... heating fuel in the open sea would be a challenge. Migrating to higher latitudes (north or south) with the seasons would make sense in terms of reducing these concerns, and preserving your catch in these areas would also make sense.


H.W.
Okay, just how in hell are you going to test your pet? Much less a seabird
Ciguatera is a neuro toxin with varying degrees in its effects. A common one it's said is the reversal of feeling. Hot is now cold, etc. Can't say for sure.
But the idea of colder weather/climate? If you're going to eat any pelagic, consider the meaning of the name. They don't stay in warm water do they?
So ... here's what I've been told for what good it will do.
"Shorter than your arm will do no harm."
Can't say for sure, never got it.
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Old 01-04-2020, 13:15   #135
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

I have heard that you can test for the toxin by putting some meat near an ant pile and see if they eat it. I think that it might work but has to be the right kind of ant. Remember those "ant farms" that you can make? I knew a guy in Hawaii who used to spear and eat different reef fish (He had a list of ones he wanted to try). He was using a commercially available kit to test for the ciguatera. The test was wrong and he almost died. It is a very serious toxin. I wonder if there is a better test kit available now.
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