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Old 15-03-2020, 16:01   #61
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

Back to the original subject. I don't think it would work to put more than a very few even normal and well-adjusted folks (like me of course!) together on a big boat and head off into the ocean to survive.


Pitcairn Island after the Mutiny on the Bounty. Pretty soon everyone is fighting each other. Too many people in a small space. Families fighting over food, men fighting over women. I would rather take my chances on my own small boat with no more than my own family, and far out of the range of any nation's military. But seafood will get very boring so I'm trying to imagine raising chickens or pigs on a small boat!
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Old 15-03-2020, 16:08   #62
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

OK, I'm going to show my weaknesses, or additions, but I'd really love to hear how people make their booze on board.

I used to be an avid maker of beers and various wines. I was never very successful with grape wines (made from kits), but used to make all sorts of natural wines; everything from dandelion and rhubarb to mead and rose petal.

For beers, I would always start with a basic malt kit, but had a good selection of my own hops so I would flavour each batch up as the mood hit.

I don't make either on board, not because I don't think I can, but because the space and water requirements seem excessive to me. (Maybe this is where a water maker comes in??) The volumes I can see making also seem to make it less than worthwhile. Perhaps this speaks to how much I drink .

Anyway, I'm curious about those who do brew their own hooch. Doesn't have to be fancy -- I had a priest friend who would brew his "Easter Special" by basically tossing all his organics in a bucket in the basement of his church. Turned out surprisingly yummy .

Thoughts? Experiences?
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Old 15-03-2020, 16:15   #63
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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Originally Posted by passage_paul View Post
I am surprised how versatile powder milk is. Have you used it to make the yogurt?
That's how we do it

1 litre water
1.5 cups powdered whole milk
2 tbsp yoghurt powder
2 tsp previous batch yoghurt

Shake and leave in Easiyo yoghurt maker (or thermos) with boiling water overnight.
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Old 15-03-2020, 16:23   #64
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

Powdered milk . Love it. We always have a good supply on board. It's become harder to find up here. Not sure why, but I can usually get it at bulk food stores. I use it for lots of stuff, although rarely just drinking (I don't drink milk generally).

Watermaker: I've got a love/hate, or rather want/need relationship with this tool. We carry ~200 gallons on board. We are also fairly frugal with our water usage. We use just shy of 2 gallons/day (or 1 gallon/person/day). So we can stay off the dock for 100 days. We also do some rain collection (although I want to get better that this).

Anywhoooo... I want a watermaker, but the fact is, I've never run out of water, so I don't need a watermaker. More to the point, water has never been the limiting factor for our staying out so far. Other needs drive us back to the dock; food, booze, diesel, or more commonly, approaching winter.

I still want one though .
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Old 15-03-2020, 16:47   #65
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

Food and water are only two of the many concerns. Fuel for motoring, cooking and heating should also concern someone wanting max independence. Motoring is optional, and the skill set to get by without motoring is something everybody should develop who wants independence from shore. Developing the skill and comfort to use a good sculling oar just makes sense. Cooking can be done without a combustible fuel. There are no options for heating fuel unless you can collect some sort of flotsam.... You rarely see driftwood in open ocean, and if you do, it's going to take a long time to dry. But realistically most of us are not going to try to exist independently at sea, so one thing to consider is a wood stove for most of us. Insulating the cabin makes sense both from the standpoint of heating and cooling. How many places are there were you cannot collect wood ashore? Solar cooking can be done with various direct solar oven devices, and with solar panels and a good battery bank you could cook with various electrical devices. Direct 12 volt makes more sense than running an inverter.......if possible.

Refrigeration is wonderful......... Modern refrigeration where the fridge cycles mindlessly on and off on a thermostat is a bit absurd...... In the old days people used ice........ and it just makes sense to use ice as an energy storage device. Make ice while the sun shines to paraphrase an old farmer saying about hay. Ice is a battery that never wears out!! What better way to store surplus energy?


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Old 15-03-2020, 16:52   #66
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
That's how we do it

1 litre water
1.5 cups powdered whole milk
2 tbsp yoghurt powder
2 tsp previous batch yoghurt

Shake and leave in Easiyo yoghurt maker (or thermos) with boiling water overnight.



I always have kefir going.......have had for years. It's much more robust than yogurt with a wide variety of microbe instead of a monoculture...... Unlike yogurt, you do not have to worry about foreign microbes killing it off, and it doesn't spoil.
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Old 15-03-2020, 17:13   #67
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

I've thought a lot about maintenance....... sailboats break, and the more complex they are, the more maintenance there is. The mast, sails, and rigging are all subject to lots of failure points.
The modern junk rig with a free standing mast eliminates countless maintenance / failure points from the absurdly complex rats nest of standing rigging to the highly tensioned fabric in the sails of a Bermuda Rig. It eliminates the need for winches, travelers, vang, and preventer, and what all else? It eliminates the need for chainplates, and the leaks that often go with them. It eliminates all reefing and furling gear. It makes tacking a matter of just putting the tiller over and letting the boom swing across, which it will do fairly gently due to sail area ahead of the mast counter balancing... then adjusting the sheet. It eliminates having to do anything on the foredeck.... or at the mast, but it simply drops into the lazy jacks like a Venetian blind, one panel at a time, the battens holding the works down so you don't have to tie in reefs. The head sail and foresail are integrated into the same sail. Each panel is separated by a batten from each adjacent panel, and each batten carries the loads directly to the mast, so not only is the fabric load a fraction of what it is on a Bermuda rig, but a tear will not spread between panels.......
It's the rig I want.... I want a rig where I can reef or tack without setting my coffee cup down or spilling it..... A rig that a child or small woman can manage without help.
It's also the rig I want because you don't have a bunch of sail bags stuffed into the V Berth, and it's lightly loaded and simply constructed such that in a pinch you could make a sail from blue tarp or bed sheets if that was all you could find. The originals were made from bamboo matting.......


I don't own a junk rigged boat.........but I fully intend to for those and other reasons.


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Old 15-03-2020, 18:38   #68
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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Originally Posted by owly View Post
...The modern junk rig with a free standing mast ....
It's the rig I want....
You, and Annie Hill.

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Old 15-03-2020, 18:52   #69
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

There is a youtube channel "Sailing Uma" using a solar powered engine on their boat and living "off grid". I would definitely have a preference for the solar powered engine than combustion. They give a bit of info about how they changed it out.. wish there was more detail. I had my pen and paper out for notes but didnt get much.


In Sail the Farm he talks about making alcohol and drinking some and using some to power the boat. I assume that is 100 proof stuff?. I don't drink so I don't understand that whole process.. but seems pretty darn renewable.. how many miles per gallon of banana bourbon does a vessel get?


While I have no desire to "isolate" from society, I do have a desire to be as close to zero dependency on it as possible...why couldnt I have been born a Hutterite..lol.



Your thoughts on a junk rig are intriguing.. I don't hear much about them so I probably should learn more.
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Old 15-03-2020, 19:04   #70
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

Mike:
Me and Annie.... now that's an interesting thought ;-) One I suspect many an avid sailor has had...... How many women like her are there? Answer.... exactly 1





I of course have a copy of that... I've followed Annie and Pete's adventures (while they were together), and enjoy her blog. Badger, shown on the cover, a 34' Benford Dory is a wonderful design.... I love the full width cabin instead of the silly little narrow coach roof..... makes for a very roomy boat.





H.W.




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You, and Annie Hill.

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Old 15-03-2020, 19:20   #71
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

I've looked at electric engines. The issue always come down to energy density, and how to keep the batteries charged. You can buy off-the-shelf replacement electric engines right now. As a rough calculation, I figured I could replace my old Perkins with an equivalent hp electric, plus all the extra batteries and other controls, but it would cost about 3x what a new diesel would cost. And this would give me an engine with a fraction of the range that I get with my current 60 gallon tank of diesel.

Then there is the problem of storing all those batteries. I currently have four Group 31s on board. I could put a couple more in without too much trouble, but to double, or triple my Amp-hr capacity, which is something you'd want with an electric engine, well, I really have no idea how to do that on my boat. And my boat has a fair bit of storage area.

Then there is the charging capacity. For a modest-sized monohull like most of us frugal cruisers have, there simply isn't enough space to mount enough solar panels. I have 400 watts on my boat. I might be able to double that if I really tried, although to be honest I don't know how. That's still no where near the charging capacity required to maintain the size of battery bank needed to run an engine equivalent to my Perkins.

So, not saying it can't be done. But the few boats I'm aware of who have done it either don't go far, or have a dino-powered generator to charge the batteries. Or they are good sailors who don't motor much. All three are possible, but it also restricts you from a lot of places.


Owly: Figured you knew all about her. Just thought it was a good excuse to tell others about her book. It's another classic.
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Old 15-03-2020, 20:07   #72
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

Thanks Mike for the info. I had no idea solar engines would be so costly. For some reason I envisioned a very inexpensive system. I didn't even think of the additional batteries and panels that would be needed.


I figured that I could take the old engine out and sell it to recover some costs from the boat and then put in a electric one. LOL


Thanks for reality check.!

It doesn't seem as tho there is a much of a way to make systems more sustainable.


Nuemeyer speaks about using alcohol that is made while out.. do you think there is much viability in that?
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Old 15-03-2020, 20:47   #73
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Then there is the charging capacity. For a modest-sized monohull like most of us frugal cruisers have, there simply isn't enough space to mount enough solar panels. I have 400 watts on my boat. I might be able to double that if I really tried, although to be honest I don't know how. That's still no where near the charging capacity required to maintain the size of battery bank needed to run an engine equivalent to my Perkins.
And panels would of course only work in sunlight.
Perhaps take a page from the hybrid auto handbook.
Whenever the brakes are applied the motors at the wheels turn into generators and reclaim the energy of the rotation back into electric and put it back into the storage (batteries).
True there are no "brakes" so to speak on a boat, but what about having a couple feathering props in the water that don't deploy until a certain speed through the water is achieved from 'sail power' and put that back into the storage ?
That way, even when you're underway at night (under sail), the battery banks will be charging. I've also seen shoreline generators use tidal 'surge' to produce power, so anytime at anchor with ocean current that is NOT moving the boat, you have a steady platform to harness the current flow into 'current flow'... <grin>
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Old 15-03-2020, 20:54   #74
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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OK, I'm going to show my weaknesses, or additions, but I'd really love to hear how people make their booze on board.

I used to be an avid maker of beers and various wines. I was never very successful with grape wines (made from kits), but used to make all sorts of natural wines; everything from dandelion and rhubarb to mead and rose petal.

For beers, I would always start with a basic malt kit, but had a good selection of my own hops so I would flavour each batch up as the mood hit.

I don't make either on board, not because I don't think I can, but because the space and water requirements seem excessive to me. (Maybe this is where a water maker comes in??) The volumes I can see making also seem to make it less than worthwhile. Perhaps this speaks to how much I drink .

Anyway, I'm curious about those who do brew their own hooch. Doesn't have to be fancy -- I had a priest friend who would brew his "Easter Special" by basically tossing all his organics in a bucket in the basement of his church. Turned out surprisingly yummy .

Thoughts? Experiences?

I have one of these at home they are out of NZ, out of two 25L fermentation tanks I distill 6-7.5L of 90%+ ethanol depending on time of year, the yeast prefers the cooler months so <27deg. When watered down to a more normal 40% that's up to 18L of drinkable spirit, I make a smashing Gin, a notable Irish, passable Scotch and Bourbon whiskeys and a Rum I based on my favorite Myers Plantation Dark Rum that literally walks out the door every time my youngest son visits. Plus any number of flavored liqueurs.

The down sides are: 1. The gear takes up some room, if you get the 25L buckets that will slip inside each other the carbon filter will fit in them, and with still and condenser around the same space as 4-5 cases of wine. 2. You need 240/110v power for 6-8 hours per 25L tank and a constant water flow to cool the condenser so best done in a marina although the guys on Delos managed it on genset and tank water.

The Up Sides are: 1. The 40% clear spirit costs about AU$4/L to produce. 2. My spirit was tested for methanol and found to be a minimum of 40% (Up to 110%) lower than six common commercial brands, so no headaches in the morning. 3. You can play with the recipes to suit your tastes i.e. I produce a raspberry infused pink gin that is so popular I had to double production.


https://www.amazon.com.au/Copper-Sti...03395026&psc=1
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Old 15-03-2020, 21:59   #75
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

Did a bit more research about chickens for eggs.. LOL.. No way do I think that would be a very economical use of energy. Lucky to get one egg a day..??..lol I cant imagine keeping a critter in a cage dangling over the edge of the boat just to extract one little egg... seems super barbaric..


It seems tho for a frugal sailer attempting to minimize footprint, powdered eggs sounds to be the way to go... up to 5 years storage. In the space to cage one chicken you could have a few years worth of powdered eggs. From what I read they can be used in baking just fine.?


I am so ashamed that I have been pulled in by the food manufacturers and become so dependent on overpriced, chemically adulterated foods for soo long. The current food industry is doing far more harm to the environment and humankind than good.



I do not need to wait to get on a boat to start living a more sustainable lifestyle. I am going to have to figure out how to proceed when it comes to meats. But all of the suggestions here can be implemented today. I took a look at my pantry and I retch.


There is no doubt that people can save 1000s of dollars a year and have much more healthy diets by following all of your tips and those in Neumeyers book.


I don't even want to use any more electricity from the grid at this point...LOL...
Do many of you use the oil lamps on your boat? I see those and think how magical it would be to roll the clock back a bit. I have thought about using them in my house.


I envy and champion all of you that live a clean, self sustaining lifestyle. How fortunate that you all have not had your heads up under. Thank you soo much for sharing and being an inspiration for others.


Until this thread I was assuming I would have a whole bunch of frozen dinners and cans of chef boyardee on board along with bags of rice and beans...LOL...


Im going to check out the suggested reading list found in "Sail the Farm"...Is there any book in particular that has served as your inspiration?
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