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Old 01-04-2020, 17:43   #136
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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Originally Posted by Tonali99 View Post
Okay, just how in hell are you going to test your pet? Much less a seabird
Ciguatera is a neuro toxin with varying degrees in its effects. A common one it's said is the reversal of feeling. Hot is now cold, etc. Can't say for sure.
But the idea of colder weather/climate? If you're going to eat any pelagic, consider the meaning of the name. They don't stay in warm water do they?
So ... here's what I've been told for what good it will do.
"Shorter than your arm will do no harm."
Can't say for sure, never got it.
Yes, The reported rise in the number of cases, AND increase in the variety of fish affected points to a connection with coral bleaching. Reef fish getting the toxin there to start.

With all life dependent on the health of our oceans, the “fleeing” part in the thread title can cause brain cramps.

The choices to keep clear of any pestilence then become fleeting.

I am in a corner of the world where I see old growth trees, formerly orangutan condos, being trucked in to construct ships for fishing. Not for big steel ocean harvesting ships. Also in this corner of the world, trash collection is done by the ocean. People generating increasingly more trash (what can you buy that doesn’t come i plastic?), then throwing that trash in the nearest water. If the flow of that water happens to be already plugged, non problem for them. The next big storm will flush it out to sea. That trash now includes lots of durable but not reusable medical mask.

I can’t paint a better picture. At a time when we all have access to information that can stop this crises, I watch the actions of others who work in close proximity to me, that can issue my death sentence with their clueless hygiene habits.

And cluelessness is not limited to where I am now. There is no escaping it. “Fleeing” becomes delaying at best. Our path is not good, and there is no getting off.
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Old 01-04-2020, 18:27   #137
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

https://www.amazon.com/Cricket-powde.../dp/B00OMCTODQMight be able to raise some crickets in the forepeak.
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Old 01-04-2020, 21:01   #138
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

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Originally Posted by Tonali99 View Post
Okay, just how in hell are you going to test your pet? Much less a seabird

Ciguatera is a neuro toxin with varying degrees in its effects. A common one it's said is the reversal of feeling. Hot is now cold, etc. Can't say for sure.

But the idea of colder weather/climate? If you're going to eat any pelagic, consider the meaning of the name. They don't stay in warm water do they?

So ... here's what I've been told for what good it will do.

"Shorter than your arm will do no harm."

Can't say for sure, never got it.


You’re not looking for symptoms, the telltale sign is a deceased feline. I totally agree with the “arms length” fish size theory and would add that small portions would be safer. Donating half of a large fish to a neighboring yacht has also been suggested as a strategy so be wary of gifts.
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Old 03-04-2020, 08:40   #139
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

It has been determined that the concentration of toxin in liver and gonads is 50 times what it is in the muscle tissue / fillets. Feeding these parts to a test animal is about the only simple test available in this situation. Cats are probably not the ideal test animal, as they would tend to become a beloved pet. I personally am fond of cats, "poisoning" a "pet" is revolting, but getting sick or dying of ciguaterra is not a pleasant prospect either.

Perhaps rats would be a better test animal. They reproduce rapidly, and will eat virtually anything. Feeding the liver and gonads of a fish recently caught should produce symptoms rapidly in a small rat. Dwarf rats are about 1/3 the size of ordinary pet rats or lab rats. From what I've read, they are much higher energy than larger rats, which would suggest a higher metabolic rate. That also leads to the conclusion that they would eat more for their weight, so they would be more likely to be effected, getting a larger dose based on body weight, so the effect should be more immediate and more exaggerated. A cage with enough rats to keep them reproducing could be an asset in this situation. They could probably also be used as bait. Obviously you would want to feed the liver of a suspect fish to only one rat. The waste parts of other fish, and other waste food, trimmings, spoiled stuff. The ocean is full of plankton of many varieties, from algae to micro crustaceans, and it is loaded with food value. It is the food of the largest creatures on earth... whales. It is free floating and can be collected with a very fine mesh, making it a potential food source for your rats, as well as for humans. It also offers a nutrient rich material that could be used for onboard gardening as a compost.


Note: The idea of potentially sacrificing innocent animals to test for toxins is odious to many people. That notion is one of the luxuries of modern civilization that must be set aside in a survival situation. Many people have a very difficult time killing anything, and if killing does not bother you at least a little bit, in my mind there is something spiritually wrong, with you. I have killed many animals over the years, and it gives me no pleasure or satisfaction, and leaves a bit of sadness, but it is a necessity of life where I live. You do what needs done.



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Old 03-04-2020, 08:49   #140
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

Here is a brief post on ciguaterra describing the effects on several people who got very bad cases. Most interesting is the fact that a saline drip rapidly alleviated the symptoms.https://www.ryanmoodyfishing.com/how...era-poisoning/


Below are a couple of interesting snips from the above link (out of order):



Antihistamines had no effect and Ryan was told to just wait. After two weeks lying in bed almost paralysed the family did some research and found an article about a Fijian who was so badly affected with ciguatera they flew him to Brisbane. During the journey they gave him a saline drip and he almost instantly recovered and was able to walk off the plane.
After reading this Ryan went straight to a doctor and requested a saline drip, after only half an hour he could feel a noticeable improvement and was able to leave unassisted. The symptoms returned about eight hours later but were less intense.
Ryan has since learned that ciguatera does not allow fluids you drink to pass through the kidneys, so urination doesn’t occur. However as the saline drip is fed straight into the bloodstream it can flush the toxin. Let’s just say that after the saline drip, Ryan had a prolonged bathroom break!



The ciguatera toxin

Ciguatera is a toxin, with symptoms known to commence anywhere from an hour to 24 hours after consumption. The symptoms range from stomach cramps and diarrhoea to difficulty breathing. Courtesy of the Queensland Health Department, a full list of the symptoms is:
• Tingling and numbness in fingers, toes, around lips, tongue, mouth and throat
• A burning sensation or skin pain on contact with cold water
• Joint and muscle pains with muscular weakness
• nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea and/or abdominal cramps
• headache, fatigue and fainting
• extreme itchiness, often worsened by drinking alcohol
• difficulty breathing in severe cases
Although not listed by Queensland Health in the documents I found, several other sources also list temporary blindness and in extreme cases cardiac failure (death).
Fish carriers of ciguatera

What fish are known carriers? Well the highest risk fish are now in Queensland’s no-take species, red bass, paddletail and chinaman.
The carriers that are still able to be taken are Spanish mackerel, red emperor (yep that one shocked me too), coral cod, coral trout, trevally, yellowtail kingfish and some lesser known species like wrasse and surgeonfish (which are both known algae eaters). When snorkelling or SCUBA diving you can often hear various wrasse and surgeon fish chewing into coral, they are eating the algae from the coral.
Moray eels are apparently carriers of the most concentrated levels of the toxin.
Depending on what articles and fact sheets you read, you shouldn’t eat Spanish mackerel (for example) over 12kg, 14kg, or 20kg. In one recent instance one angler claimed to have ciguatera symptoms after eating an 8kg Spanish mackerel! One thing you can be sure of is that the larger the Spanish mackerel, the more risk that they have high levels of the toxin as it accumulates in the body - so larger fish end up with more.
According to some researchers, the amount of toxin in the gonads, roe and liver can be up to 50 times greater than an equivalent amount of muscle.
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Old 04-04-2020, 15:28   #141
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Re: Fleeing Pestilence.... flight of fancy... or rather voyage of fancy

One of the issues with growing food aboard at sea is spray. If you rely on sunlight, you need to be somewhere where it shines unobstructed, yet you need to keep your plants way from salt spray. A greenhouse of sorts sounds good, but would tend to overheat resulting in temp control issues. You also don't want it taking up valuable living space. A location like a quarterberth alongside the cockpit might be fairly ideal as far as being roomy and out of the way, yet accessible to the galley, but getting light into it is an issue. An array of deck prisms could bring light in without badly compromising the cockpit seating. The same could be done in a V berth, or better yet the forward compartments of a catamaran hull, or some other space that isn't ideal for human habitation
Another but more complex solution is grow lights. I bought a 24 volt LED grow light the other day on Amzn... made in china. It consists of two panels, each 4" by 10". Each panel has 96 LEDs, in an array of red blue and white, and the works throws a LOT of light on a mere 20W. An array of these would grow a significant amount of vegetation. Their coverage should be about double their area, or about 4.4 square feet per panel judging from what my other lights do. I've run indoor hydroponic grow chambers for a number of years now because I have so much trouble with grocery salad greens.... short life expectancy, and who knows what chemicals are on them!!
A couple of solar panels in series driving a 24V charge controller, with two batteries in series... small lithiums or AGMs would work, as your grow light on period would correspond to daylight hours for the most part.

A passive system would be more desirable.


Insects are not going to be a problem at sea.......... unless you bring them with you. In any case it would be a good idea to have two locations for that eventuality. Neem oil an dish detergent both work fairly well if you end up with pests. The "heavy artillery" is permethrin. Effective an safe..... so safe that it is widely impregnated into clothing for outdoorsmen. You should avoid breathing it in a spray form, and I avoid physical contact when applying it out of an abundance of caution. It works very well on surfaces. An insect walking on the surface will absorb enough to kill it through it's feet.... when the surface has been treated and is dry. The same with clothing. It is so potent that it deters ticks and mosquitos.. ticks get enough of a dose walking on your clothing that they don't have a chance to bite. Here's a good article in Consumer Reports: https://www.consumerreports.org/inse...othing-safely/
I wouldn't be without the stuff. I paint it on the wood around my windows during the fly season, and they walk on it........... I never have to chase flies around anymore.



I paint or spray on permethrin on every surface in my grow chambers....with the plants themselves well out of the way, and on the containers themselves so that anything an insect lands on will kill it. This after battling with an aphid infestation and a couple of other undesirables. The plants themselves get neem oil or water with detergent sprayed on them if they show any signs of infestation of any kind.


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