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Old 07-02-2018, 00:21   #76
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

Anchor Lights: No the US doesn't have 100% compliance but I would say most do use an anchor light. It seems to be worst where you have the floating homeless on marginal vessels but those are usually well established anchoring areas where there is a high expectation of anchored vessels, so while it would be better to have them,it's not a low risk and a challenge to enforce because they simply won't pay the ticket.

Day shapes: Per the letter of the law, yes, you are supposed to use them. If you are running a dredge or a tow on a long cable, it makes a lot of sense as there may be hidden obstructions others can't see and might not be aware of. But I think most people (including the authorities) recognize that if you run down an anchored boat...lack of a day shape is highly unlikely to be the proximate cause, so they don't worry about it.
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Old 07-02-2018, 00:34   #77
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
..

Day shapes: Per the letter of the law, yes, you are supposed to use them. If you are running a dredge or a tow on a long cable, it makes a lot of sense as there may be hidden obstructions others can't see and might not be aware of. But I think most people (including the authorities) recognize that if you run down an anchored boat...lack of a day shape is highly unlikely to be the proximate cause, so they don't worry about it.
Speaking as a lawyer, if you are involved in a collision while you are anchored, and you're not showing proper day shape indicating your nav status - it's going to be a big deal. It's also going to be a perfectly valid reason for insurance to deny a claim.

I WAS involved in a collision while at anchor, and the VERY FIRST QUESTION from the insurance company was about lights and shapes.

It's absolutely no different from a collision at night without nav lights.

Word to the wise!
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:26   #78
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

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Speaking as a lawyer, if you are involved in a collision while you are anchored, and you're not showing proper day shape indicating your nav status - it's going to be a big deal. It's also going to be a perfectly valid reason for insurance to deny a claim.

I WAS involved in a collision while at anchor, and the VERY FIRST QUESTION from the insurance company was about lights and shapes.

It's absolutely no different from a collision at night without nav lights.

Word to the wise!
Per the letter of the law you are correct....but that would imply that insurance would never pay out on any crash in the USA involving an anchored boat and you would always walk away with a ticket.

I'm pretty sure if that was the case, we would be hearing lots of people screaming about the tickets, lack of payouts and you would see lots of day shapes on anchored boats in short order. So far other than these esoteric colregs discussions, I'm not seeing any sign of that.

Not suggesting you shouldn't fly one to meet the letter of the law but it explains common practice...
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Old 07-02-2018, 05:22   #79
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

I am sure that in these litigious times there would be wisdom in spending the twenny bux on a collapsible anchor ball, not because it would reduce the possibility of collision, but because it would provide certainty of compliance.

I have never seen one in use on a pleasure craft in the Salish Sea, but then, given our topography, all viable anchorages where we yotties can reach bottom at all are "recognized anchorages". As for the other shapes and the combinations thereof, what do we, as yotties ever do that would require the display of them?

As for the question of what a "special" anchorage is, the all-knowing Ms.Google provides this:

"ß 109.10 Special anchorage areas. An Act of Congress of April 22, 1940, provides for the designation of special anchorage areas wherein vessels not more than sixty-five feet in length, when at anchor, will not be required to carry or exhibit anchorage lights."

General anchorages are presumably them wot ain't "special". Why "anchorage balls" are not mentioned, we'll never know. Maybe the legislators had no balls that day:-)

So we Canucks may not even have special anchorages, but given that our CG and government generally tend to be copy-cats, we may well. In the end, it seems to be of trivial importance in a practical sense since I'm damnsure that I will see the forty-thousand-ton freighter before I see her ball. I'm equally sure she can't go where I can reach bottom.

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Old 07-02-2018, 05:53   #80
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

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Per the letter of the law you are correct....but that would imply that insurance would never pay out on any crash in the USA involving an anchored boat and you would always walk away with a ticket.

I'm pretty sure if that was the case, we would be hearing lots of people screaming about the tickets, lack of payouts and you would see lots of day shapes on anchored boats in short order. So far other than these esoteric colregs discussions, I'm not seeing any sign of that.

Not suggesting you shouldn't fly one to meet the letter of the law but it explains common practice...
"Common practice" which contradicts the law can really bite you in the posterior. There is no such thing, legally, as the "letter of the law". There is only "THE law".

The obligation to show day shapes is not an empty formality. Clearly indicating nav status is important for other vessels to make maneuvering decisions.

"But your honor, I know the letter of the law requires nav lights, but there was a full moon out! ď. You can expect similar traction with regard to the same argument with regard to your anchor ball.

Accidents with anchored boats are rare, of course, so probably it can't happen to you and you don't need to worry about it. Right? ?????
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:36   #81
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

I've been using an anchor ball for about 25yrs. and I've seen maybe half a dozen in that time. I would never want to stand in front of a judge and say "but no one else uses them".
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:10   #82
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

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"Common practice" which contradicts the law can really bite you in the posterior. There is no such thing, legally, as the "letter of the law". There is only "THE law".

The obligation to show day shapes is not an empty formality. Clearly indicating nav status is important for other vessels to make maneuvering decisions.

"But your honor, I know the letter of the law requires nav lights, but there was a full moon out! ď. You can expect similar traction with regard to the same argument with regard to your anchor ball.

Accidents with anchored boats are rare, of course, so probably it can't happen to you and you don't need to worry about it. Right? ?????
It's not a legal concept but it is practical concept.

Same thing as speeding. If you get in an accident, don't expect saying the other guy was speeding will get you out of it but reality in the risk/reward point of view, it's such a small risk, most don't bother.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:11   #83
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

I find it interesting given how much info was in the original post how this thread turned into a debate about anchor balls of all things.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:18   #84
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

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It's not a legal concept but it is practical concept.

Same thing as speeding. If you get in an accident, don't expect saying the other guy was speeding will get you out of it but reality in the risk/reward point of view, it's such a small risk, most don't bother.
I think that's a poor analogy to suggest that speeding is low risk.

I once lived on a country road. We could go for weeks without seeing a car on that road. I still taught my kids to look both ways.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:44   #85
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

i am saddened to hear of catskill creek marina dying.. i know my family is restoring the eleanor in hudson, ny--hoping finally some kids can learn to sail like we did, with my uncles kids teaching sailing to children. this wont help the fading of the old yards and marinas... mebbe will help a few kids learn to sail on a sweet sailing boat.
funny i recently learned rushmore dam and farm, up catskill creek from marina, was part of my heritage i didnt know of when i was living in ny. strangely all is learned after we leave.
hudson river was a cool learning ground. estuarial, so tidal concerns exist, and windy enough often enough to actually sail a gaff rigged raceabout up and down river. there are bears in the hills..... those hills are catskill mountains and adirondack mountains, yes BEARS. they may come down to river for a drink and a snack.. i still have cousins who try to become bear food by climbing those mountains for fun.
i understand ice fishing on long lake is some good fishing.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:49   #86
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

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Still I have never seen one used.
Once or twice on large Commercial vessels, but never on any pleasure Boat.
I ought to get one just as a conversation starter.
Q. Whatís that?
A. Itís an anchor ball.
Q. Does it float or something? How does it work, what does it do?
A. It lets people know your anchored.
Q. How does it do that?
Outside of the US, they are used, routinely. Including on large private yachts, that have to do things "professionally". I bet the large private yachts do that in the US, too, for liability reasons and insurance. Same principal applies to steaming cones that do the same job, in the daylight, of the steaming light. Don't see those much in the US, either.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:57   #87
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

And, concerning "steaming cones", how else you you know whether a boat is under power, or not? Exhaust? What about the new ones that discharge under the water and are barely visible? What about having your generator on, if you have one? What about when you are running your engine in neutral and are those not using an engine for propulsion?

Whether a sailboat is under power or not has serious Colregs implications. Your insurance policy says you must not be operating illegally, or you won't be covered. Logic says you don't want the other guy making a guess. Yet, in the US, among smaller private boats, you almost never see a steaming cone used, any more than you see an anchor ball. Not very bright.
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:54   #88
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

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And, concerning "steaming cones", how else you you know whether a boat is under power, or not? Exhaust? What about the new ones that discharge under the water and are barely visible? What about having your generator on, if you have one? What about when you are running your engine in neutral and are those not using an engine for propulsion?

Whether a sailboat is under power or not has serious Colregs implications. Your insurance policy says you must not be operating illegally, or you won't be covered. Logic says you don't want the other guy making a guess. Yet, in the US, among smaller private boats, you almost never see a steaming cone used, any more than you see an anchor ball. Not very bright.
Yep.

Apologies to Carsten for the small digression, but I expect he's enjoying it as much as we are.
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:41   #89
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

Amazon sells anchor balls for under $15. No real excuse not to have one.

Quote:
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...Yet, in the US, among smaller private boats, you almost never see a steaming cone used, any more than you see an anchor ball. Not very bright.
Excepting the fine folks on this forum, of course, my experience both boating and teaching in the US is that the vast majority of power boaters AND sailors don't understand the COLREGs well enough to even know the importance of the difference between sailing and steaming.
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:53   #90
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Re: European Impressions of Cruising the US

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Yet, in the US, among smaller private boats, you almost never see a steaming cone used
In inland waters of the US and Canada steaming cones are not required on boats less than 12m (40ft) ... so depending on where you are, it may not be necessary.
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