Composting toilet: rules, regulations, and "real life" use etc.?

[john61ct]

Rule is that **boats with composting heads** may not stay in City Waters ON ANCHOR OR ON A MOORING longer than one (1) week.

Does not have anything to do with whether they need emptying or not during that time.

Means you need to pay a marina for an overnight, or get out of city waters, every six nights.

[Davy J]

Means you need to pay a marina for an overnight, or get out of city waters, every six nights.

Sounds just like a long term anchoring ban to me. Can boaters who have a holding tank stay as long as they wish?

[hellosailor]

john-
Boy, is it a good thing that the EPA says there are no "composting" heads on the market! Despite some makers using that term, the EPA says that unless that head meets their long list of criteria and eventually emits *only* fully composted sanitized humus, it ain't a composting head.
Which probably means you'd need a "composting head" that was capable of sealing itself when full, and continuing to fully compost the materials for 90 days before it allowed access to them.

I can understand and perhaps even appreciate that a "composting head" has a use in this world. I just adamantly disagree with calling a bucket of drying **** anything except a bucket of drying **** when that's all they're really pushing. The composting has to happen elsewhere, unless you're carrying a 90+ days supply of them onboard.

"Composting heads are not designed for uninterrupted use, and when users dispose of the solids in our public trash cans, this creates a public health concern." Yup. And the state of Colorado says the same thing. It ain't "composted" when you dump it, it is still sewage and a potential health hazard. Folks today forget that plain dysentery still kills hundreds of thousands, if not a million or more, yearly. We're not all that far removed from the problem, sewage handling laws may be imperfect--but they beat letting raw sewage run in the streets.

But that's how whatsizname grew the tomato plant in Waterworld, wasn't it?(G)

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The point is, no matter what USCG or other jurisdictions may allow, if that one locality wants to ban a particular type of system they are free to do so.

Right?

The four choices are:

Take your boat elsewhere

Change your head to another system that is allowed

Try to avoid getting caught

Or accept the penalties.

Trying to change the regulation is another choice, to be combined with one of the above.

I suppose … but as with other misinformed policy choices, sometimes it’s worth trying the education route — sometimes.

I also don’t understand how this would stand up under a court challenge. USCG defines compost heads as Type III MSD. So, unless they’re going to ban ALL Type III heads, which would include all holding tank versions, I can’t see this surviving a court case.

But you’re right, the easiest thing to do is simply avoid this spot. The world is a big place. I don’t need to go to places which place such ill-informed policies in place.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

..."Composting heads are not designed for uninterrupted use, and when users dispose of the solids in our public trash cans, this creates a public health concern." Yup. And the state of Colorado says the same thing. It ain't "composted" when you dump it, it is still sewage and a potential health hazard. Folks today forget that plain dysentery still kills hundreds of thousands, if not a million or more, yearly. We're not all that far removed from the problem, sewage handling laws may be imperfect--but they beat letting raw sewage run in the streets.

So you’re in favour of a ban on used diapers and feminine hygiene products? Sounds good. You lead that charge .

[john61ct]

Neither the EPA nor USCG definitions of what are or are not really "composting heads" matter here.

Certainly not our own opinions on terminology.

This jurisdiction and the LEO tasked with enforcement will have their own definition, pretty common sense.

I am sure a home-made bucket & plastic bag setup will qualify, as well as Nature's, C-Head, Airhead etc.

Being discreet and considerate are key when dumping poop into the municipal waste stream.

Very likely a few bad apples will continue to wreck things for the rest of us in other locations.

[hellosailor]

Mike-
I don't say it is entirely logical or comprehensive. Perhaps the epidemiologists have studied that and found that menstrual blood is less likely to carry: salmonella or shigella; viral infections including rotavirus, norovirus, hepatitis A and E, parasites such as giardia and cryptosporidium, and various different kinds of worms including pinworms, ascariasis and tapeworms.
Notice that all of those parasites would not be present in menstrual blood, they only come from the intestinal tract.
Similarly, I suspect there's less chance of "normal" healthy babies having many of those disease vectors, it can take some time to contract the diseases in the first place.
So, as a practical matter? Yeah, Typhoid Mary was an adult, too.

As to standing up to a federal challenge? You're a foreigner from the Colonial viewpoint. It is understandable that you might not know, our USCG regulations may be EXCEEDED for state, county, municipal, tribal, and other lesser government regulations. They cannot be set aside, but they do not prevent any other government from imposing stricter regulations.

And again, the USCG can set rules for "composting" heads, but the EPA regulations also must be met, and the EPA says nothing on that market is "composting". That would (and arguably should) be subject to FTC enforcement for fraudulent marketing.

[john61ct]

Actually pretty sure EPA officials these days are required to swear they are in favour of throwing poop in dumpsters,

same with FTS officials, all in favour of false claims for marketing purposes are good for the economy

[newhaul]

Just emailed natures head and asked that exact question are they EPA certified .
We shall see

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Mike-
I don't say it is entirely logical or comprehensive. Perhaps the epidemiologists have studied that and found that menstrual blood is less likely to carry: salmonella or shigella; viral infections including rotavirus, norovirus, hepatitis A and E, parasites such as giardia and cryptosporidium, and various different kinds of worms including pinworms, ascariasis and tapeworms.
Notice that all of those parasites would not be present in menstrual blood, they only come from the intestinal tract.
Similarly, I suspect there's less chance of "normal" healthy babies having many of those disease vectors, it can take some time to contract the diseases in the first place.
So, as a practical matter? Yeah, Typhoid Mary was an adult, too.

That’s a lot of hoop jumping to try and justify an unjustifiable decision. Baby poop is at least as dangerous as partially composted poop from cruisers. And blood is a vector for many dangerous diseases.

I’m don’t think dumping the end product of a “compost” cycle into a small city trash can is a good idea. But if it’s such a huge problem for the city, perhaps providing a special bin for this refuse would be a smarter idea.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

As to standing up to a federal challenge? You're a foreigner from the Colonial viewpoint. It is understandable that you might not know, our USCG regulations may be EXCEEDED for state, county, municipal, tribal, and other lesser government regulations. They cannot be set aside, but they do not prevent any other government from imposing stricter regulations.

I’m certainly not the legal expert here, but it seems to me to be an awkward legal argument to make; that we’re “exceeding” the USCG regs, but only for for this small subset of Type III heads.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

And again, the USCG can set rules for "composting" heads, but the EPA regulations also must be met, and the EPA says nothing on that market is "composting". That would (and arguably should) be subject to FTC enforcement for fraudulent marketing.

In many ways I wish these heads were not sold as composting heads. Yes, under normal full time use, they do not fully compost. Mostly they desiccate. But the best thing they do is separate urine from feces. It is this toxic slurry which is far more dangerous than the end product of a compost cycle.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Just emailed natures head and asked that exact question are they EPA certified .
We shall see

Wrong questions.


a. There is no EPA certification process.
b. USCG certification is not required for type III heads.
Type III devices.
Ambient air pressure & temperature. A Type III device that stores sewage and flushwater at ambient air pressure and temperature is not subject to formal U.S. Coast Guard certification if it meets the requirements in 33 CFR 159.53(c). Such devices will have no U.S. Coast Guard Certificate of Approval, no U.S. Coast Guard letter, and no device label.
Adequacy. Type III MSDs should be of adequate size and construction to retain all wastewater generated while the vessel is operating in U.S. waters. For example, the use of piping to hold sewage or the securing of a head's direct overboard discharge valve are not adequate Type III devices.


The problem is that users have been placing bags of "stuff" in small rubish cans at the dinghy dock, which happens to be a high-traffic, up-scale park in downtown Naptown. Probably a bag broke, maybe the can was full, and it was icky. No prejudiced intended, like pumping out next to a beach, this a composting toilet user error. They should have found a more discrete disposal site.That said, perhaps the Harbor Master can dedicate a waste can. Easy fix.


I'm not personally a composting head fan, but I believe they can be environmentally sound and we should not be discouraging their use. That's just wrong.

[hellosailor]

Not hoop jumping, Mike. Only suggesting there are many possibilities for logic behind their rules. You'd have to ask an epidemiologist, perhaps someone at our CDC, why the rules are what they are. They may simply be outdated.

And while work larva and eggs are remarkably robust at surviving outside the digestive tract, blood-borne pathogens are usually dead by the time the blood has cooled and dried and oxidized, a matter of hours. Totally different criteria. You can't pass Ebola on from fecal matter, can you?

"it seems to me to be an awkward legal argument to make; that we’re “exceeding” the USCG regs, but only for for this small subset of Type III heads. "
Again, you're a foreigner. You may be unaware that the states have MANY boating laws that exceed the USCG minimums. For small craft lighting, for the age of persons required to wear PFDs, for BWI limits, for many things. The state of New Jersey is one of many states--perhaps the strictest--that requires a certificate of proficiency for any motor vessel operator. The USCG has no such requirement.
Go to NJ, put your hand on the throttle, and you can be busted. BY THE STATE, but not by the USCG.

Ask your own health department how or why they regulate sewage and septic waste. But don't just say the rules in a foreign country are wrong or illogical, without any knowledge of how or why those rules were put into effect.

Why do I need my certificate of proficiency when I sail on the west side of the Hudson, when I don't need it on the east side? Damfino.

[owly]

The technology exists to greatly accelerate composting of human waste. It requires the temperature to stay within specific range from what I've read, and it requires the moisture level to stay within a specific range. It also requires aeration / stirring, and the proper microbes. Little if any of this is true in a so called composting head on a boat. Full urine separation defeats the process, but excess liquid also defeats it. The chamber is simply not large enough to accomplish this, and most boats don't really have a suitable location for a separate chamber to achieve full transformation.... though it's possible.
Full desiccation followed by incineration might be another option. There is the Incinolet which burns each deposit..... a rather impractical solution as it requires a fresh liner and fuel burn for each use.
Crap is mostly water, and it could be reduced to a cooked powder.... at least in theory, if other materials were not added.... again the dehydration / cooking process would take energy, and odor control would be an issue. A month's deposits of solids if cooked and crushed would be a fairly small and compact quantity of powder. It would take many pounds of s__t to make a pound of powdered s__t. The temp reached in the dehydration process would be sufficient to kill pathogens, but I'm not sure how one would control odor. We burn fuel to cook our food..... perhaps there are times when burning fuel to cook our s__t is also appropriate.



H.W.

[john61ct]

AKA incinerating head

[smj]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Never had an issue with composters for 3 years in Florida, I will say natures head and airhead are overpriced pieces of crap, as in you have a $1000. Bucket. And we never had a women onboard who could per properly in the C head, including my wife. Maybe some people enjoy playing with crap and piss, it's get really old. Doing it several times a month

Maybe I should get my wife to give lessons[emoji38]