Blue Water Cruiser - What size

[andrei_ca]

Thanks, crystal clear.

This is digressing a bit, but since we're talking costs, what is the real face of anchoring in remote places where you don't have to pay. In an urban area like Vancouver. What are the odds of taking a dinghy ashore and leaving your boat locked and unattended for a few hours, is it risky or what?

Also, I remember reading of surf dudes that anchored way behind the breaking waves and paddeled for a surf then retreated to chill on their boat and whatnot. I did get it when you said that the surf zone is pretty dangerous and not for the novice - no question, I know why. For an experienced sailor, anchoring like that is it possible? I can see it would take solid anchoring to avoid drifting to begin with.

Andrei

[andrei_ca]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I have no idea if somebody mentioned this already but I recommend to watch the Sailing Uma videos.

Nope, nobody mentioned it as far as I recall. Thanks .

Andrei

[carstenb]

Andrei - you're getting some invaluable advice here - take it to heart.

I'll give you some also (free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it). You mention you want at well-stocked and equipped galley (this is all just as an example), including a good sized freezer.

Well, a good sized freezer burns electricity. Which means you will need a sizable battery bank to run it. A sizable battery bank takes up space (which you want to use for something else). A sizable battery bank needs charging, which in turn means either running your diesel engine (which you have removed) or a generator (which means you have now reinstalled your diesel tank) or solar or wind generator)

Somewhere up above it was said "it depends". This is the axiom that should be repeated every time you start making decisions on a boat - it depends.

The electricity hungry things you drop in the more batteries you'll need, the more charging capacity you'll need, the bigger boat you'll need.

On a boat - eveything is interconnected - change one thing and you'll end up having to change many others.

Life ain't as simple as we'd all like it ot be and on a boat it definitely ain't simple

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by andrei_ca

.....................
........................ I wanted to fit a decent freezer and or fridge to be able to make provisions for a long period of time ........... making raw food (like even raw burgers or pizza) and that's quite a bit of space. Nevermind the power issue for now ........................... I learned the hard way the importance of nutrition, so that's why I put such a bias on a kitchen. But then again: I can do with less and simplify things. .......... I know downsizing/simplifying is possible and one can thrive. I see that as a compromise - not necessarily a bad one ................ Andrei

Sorry to chop your thoughts into a few highlighted bits, but I was using your words to make a point about working on the other side of the energy equation. There is no question that, for most living aboard, the refrigeration/freezer needs are the greatest consumer of energy. (I'll admit here, that living at a far lower latitude, I'm not accustomed to heating a boat.)

A "decent sized" refrigerator may be about 6 cubic feet and the freezer at 2 cubic feet. if a person adapts to using ample dried, canned and fresh foods that still allow for great nutrition. Such a refrig/freezer, well-insulated, with a cold plate and a small compressor with heat changed by air can operate with about 1 amp continual supply.

Lowering the energy demand side of the equation requires some adaptation, but not sacrifice.

[Island Time O25]

Carstenb, great post!

I still wonder at what point sailing, especially long distance type, went from an activity to "get away form it all" to an activity "to take it all with you". What's the point of going to the far ends of the world only to keep yourself tethered to everything you're leaving behind?

I'd understand someone who wants to liveaboard as a cheaper alternative to land based housing. And in that case desiring all the creature comforts of home is logical as a boat then is just a house on the water. But when one travels one does not take his/her freezer with them but makes do with what is appropriate for the circumstances. Same with personal other bulky effects, furniture, etc. Unless of course one has the financial resources to make his/her boat a moving condo or better yet a house on the water.

[carstenb]

Andrei

Just a bit more food for thought. If you really mean using your boat for going off-shore, you'll have to think about installing a gang of other equipment (read more electircity). Watermaker? say 8AH. Radar? 4-5AH

Hudson Force knows what he is talking about - but we've not been able to reach 1 amp continuous (24 A per day) Ours is a 250 liter fridge with a small freezer inside and it is well-insulated. We also have a keel cooled compressor (we're in the tropics right now) - we're looking a t closer to 30-35A per day.

Up north you'll need heating. If you've taken your diesel engine out - then you've also removed your diesel tank - so a diesel fired hot air heater is out. This means you will need an alternative heat source - electricity? Do you research and figure out how many Kw you need to heat the air to heat your (non-insulated) boat to a comfy 20 degrees C.

If you go that road - you're talking big amounts of battery and to be honest I doubt you will be able to fit that many into a 30 footer and still ahve good living/storage space.

A wise person once said - Everything on a boat is a compromise.

Truer words were never spoken

Also remember that BOAT is an ancronym for "break out another thousand" Everything on a boat cost more than you can imagine

[Sav]

Originally Posted by andrei_ca

I have met top level professionals in certain fields that did not know things that I found early in my research. No mercy.

Andrei

Same here mate... met a bloke that said he was an expert in everything from aeronautical science to pulling calves out of cows... however the silly bastard couldn't tie his shoe laces.

[Sav]

Ummm... its a buyers market, and will be for some time, so I suggest you just buy why you feel might work, and change it as you see fit.
If its no good, just cut your costs, sell the fucha and buy something else.
As I said... its a buyers market, so prices are still dropping.

[Pete7]

Some great advice from Trentepieds, who has taken some time to put that together.

Picking up on what he said, you are currently looking at adverts on line because they are easy to search for, but then so is everyone else. Just think of what the hit rates are for boats on Craigslist once Spring starts to appear and the weather improves. Now ask yourself what the same hit rates will be in November when its cold, the nights long and everyone is thinking about Christmas. Also think about the people you are competing against for the best Yacht. How easy is it for Mr and Mrs Average to lay their hands on $15k to buy a boat? Compare that to say funding a £50k yacht, big difference.

Back to the search thing, you don't really want a clapped out yacht needing extensive refurbishment. What you need is a clapped out yacht that someone spent a lot of cash on, lost the plot and then decided to sell. You won't find everything done, but new sails or standing rigging or even the engine re-conditioned would be a bonus. To find these boats before they hit the market means real detective work walking the marinas, asking around visiting places. Place notices on boards, even on boats, you just need one owner who is thinking of selling to be persuaded to go through with it and take the £ hit in return for no more responsibility and you are on your way.

Pete

[andrei_ca]

You all seem to know what you're talking about. I know because I understand and I have thought about those technical issues - nevermind the financial, when it comes to that I let my mind fly otherwise I think in a box and it's not good for innovation.

There are certain boat items, for example like sails, which I figured I could do on my own - it's not even a question. I've done projects far more complicated than that. If I were to talk about repairing the sails or getting new ones, that's a huge cost saving right there. Plus I would have the luxury of inspecting and adjusting my gear as I go - which I see as a huge saftey bonus. I wouldn't have the means to make winches and whatnot but even those things can be serviced somehow to prolong their life. I haven't opened a device that I could not reassemble and that was too complicated - it was made by humans afterall; it's not like boats have out of the ordinary special pieces of tech.

When it comes to hardware with software and whatnot - those are expenses; I usually pick a good reliable too and get over with it. Diesel engines - yeah, that's tough work but, like I said, I was hoping for a better tech. If you don't like the sound of this at least let me dream, something might come out of it.

Speaking of lifestyle, why keep certain things - personal preference, if it's possible.

Now speaking of energy. I've been researching alternative means and I was counting on that. I should hope I would not stay on the available known means: internal combustion, batteries, solar pannels. It's not an innovation either - just fringe information. It's all research and brainstorming and it's for long term. And I'm not doing this just for sailing; this is good for anything in life.

Andrei

[TrentePieds]

You already know how to make sails??? That seems unlikely. There is rather more to it than running a few seams along a few panels of cloth. Partly because dacron is nasty, intractable, slippery stuff to work with. Where would you even do it? If you don't have access to a large unencumbered floor, say a room of 50 x 30 feet (about twice the footage of a modern condominium apartment), where would you loft the sail? Do you have enuff background in aerodynamics to know what the "foil" of the sail is s'posed to be like and enuff knowledge of trigonometry and geometry to translate the envisioned three-dimensional shape of a sail into a two-dimensional cutting pattern on the lofting floor? Do you have, or are you willing to buy an industrial sewing machine with a roller feed? Do you have a sewing table of say 12 x 20 feet?

TP

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by andrei_ca

You all seem to know what you're talking about. I know because I understand and I have thought about those technical issues - nevermind the financial, when it comes to that I let my mind fly otherwise I think in a box and it's not good for innovation.

There are certain boat items, for example like sails, which I figured I could do on my own - it's not even a question. I've done projects far more complicated than that. If I were to talk about repairing the sails or getting new ones, that's a huge cost saving right there. Plus I would have the luxury of inspecting and adjusting my gear as I go - which I see as a huge saftey bonus. I wouldn't have the means to make winches and whatnot but even those things can be serviced somehow to prolong their life. I haven't opened a device that I could not reassemble and that was too complicated - it was made by humans afterall; it's not like boats have out of the ordinary special pieces of tech.

When it comes to hardware with software and whatnot - those are expenses; I usually pick a good reliable too and get over with it. Diesel engines - yeah, that's tough work but, like I said, I was hoping for a better tech. If you don't like the sound of this at least let me dream, something might come out of it.

Speaking of lifestyle, why keep certain things - personal preference, if it's possible.

Now speaking of energy. I've been researching alternative means and I was counting on that. I should hope I would not stay on the available known means: internal combustion, batteries, solar pannels. It's not an innovation either - just fringe information. It's all research and brainstorming and it's for long term. And I'm not doing this just for sailing; this is good for anything in life.

Andrei

Well I have to say that you're convinced of your own abilities - hubris is a wonderful thing.

yes it is possible to repair your own sails - and if you are very good and have the right equipment - I suppose you might even sew yourself a new set of sails (I don't know anyone actually doing this -even amongst the extremely experienced sailors I know). Sailcloth is rather expensive, as is a sewing machine to sew it.

The energy equation is one you have to solve - and saying "gee guys I'm just gonna think outside the box" probably won't get you there. There are still some basic laws of physics, amongst which are the second law of thermodynamics and the laws of conservation of matter and energy that will be hard for you to defeat.

as of this writing I'm not aware of any new energy producing methods that are viable on boats (especially 30 footers) that haven't been mentioned yet. So you're stuck with those limitations and you'll have to work within them.

A budget of $15k is very small indeed and as someone else said - figure at least double this the initial rebuild and more each yar.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

You already know how to make sails??? That seems unlikely. There is rather more to it than running a few seams along a few panels of cloth. Partly because dacron is nasty, intractable, slippery stuff to work with. Where would you even do it? If you don't have access to a large unencumbered floor, say a room of 50 x 30 feet (about twice the footage of a modern condominium apartment), where would you loft the sail? Do you have enuff background in aerodynamics to know what the "foil" of the sail is s'posed to be like and enuff knowledge of trigonometry and geometry to translate the envisioned three-dimensional shape of a sail into a two-dimensional cutting pattern on the lofting floor? Do you have, or are you willing to buy an industrial sewing machine with a roller feed? Do you have a sewing table of say 12 x 20 feet?

TP

Shucks a little research over the weekend and he'll be a vicious competitor to North Sails................

[TrentePieds]

I thot for a brief moment that we were making headway. Oh, well! If Andrei can get himself here, I'll take him out onto McCall Bank when it's blowing hard from NW. That should deal with the question of overconfidence once and for all ;-)!

TP

[andrei_ca]

I don't know what school you went to, but where I come from trigonometry is basic and so is vectorial physics to a fairly advanced degree; even calculus is mandatory in high-school. I mentioned I surf: surf fins have foil too, so do airplane wings - it's not such an obscure physics notion that only "accomplished skippers" know it. Foil refers to the principle when a vector force is generated through depreseurisation when a fluid travels different distances in the same time. If you knew me and vectorial physics.

You forgot to mention that I also need 2-3 clandestine Asians to sweat the work on my sails while I have the beers TrentsPieds mentioned. There is more than one way to sew a large surface - wake up: not everything is done in a large industrial building. Especially if you have the template of the previous work.

I would tell you what hard slippery sewing is but you wouldn't believe I managed to fit all that under the machine's foot. Do you even know what basting tape is for? I didn't even use it for the referenced project.

TrentsPieds I have no doubt that if I sail in hard wind without reflexes formed, hard wind will shorten the time for reaction - which means automatic failure. I've windsurfed and I played with kitesurfs for a brief time. I know what you reffer to. So, yeah I agree - that'll shrink my balls in 0.1 seconds.

Andrei