Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

[gonesail]

my understanding of liveaboards are folks that pay to live full time at a marina that has the facilities they need like washing machines and bathrooms and grocery stores. the other definition of folks that anchor out is questionable. we already have a huge homeless problem in florida with people sleeping in the woods and vacant houses. they also will stay in a derelict boat if they can find one and this is not a pretty sight. in the end it seems you cannot totally sever your ties with land and money and the laws created by the dirt dwellers.

[Cheechako]

I think the general public's opinion is the same as them viewing an old pickup truck with a beat up camper that someone is living "off the land" in. Unfortunately....

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by BandB

Who decides what rules are "unreasonable?" Directly, the owner gets to decide. It's his business being run to make a profit. Indirectly, it's the customers who decide. The majority who will make his business profitable. Most people who rent slips and come to use them on the weekend prefer not to have hammering, sanding, and painting taking place in the slip next to them. Owners don't want a dock full of unhappy boaters. Now some marinas have time and place for such. Some don't. You talk about a place to rebuild your schooner. I understand your frustration. But I don't see where anyone did anything wrong to you. No one is under an obligation to run a DIY yard and set up a place for you. Why are yards closing? Because it's not profitable. People invest in marinas and boatyards to make a profit.

I get frustrated on land sometimes that there are not businesses that provide certain services the way I wish they did. All the time. Every day there's something that I wish was operated differently.

Actually a lot of the marina's in Washington State are owned by the ports who are the people that make up most of these rules who for the most part don't even own boats. and then the marinas don't want to loose all the tax dollar money they are getting so they are trying to impress the local government by upping the rules to make them even more restrictive.
fun fun

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by weavis

Dont have to worry about it old boy. My Dad and his Gurkha chums already established the welcomed British presence........

Hmm, I have been there, well Brunei.

Pete

[BandB]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Mind you, I do my work during the week, when the weekenders are away. Plus when at a dock, I keep the boat clean enough that I can leave the marina within 10 minutes. But I may be the exception to the rule.
.

Yes, you may be the exception. I also know marinas that during the week allow those who want to do such work to move to another area for it. This was common on the lake we lived on.

But I'm sure you do it all in such a way not to bother others. Even if others are around they're probably more curious than bothered.

I know one marina that never had an issue. Didn't have a rule as didn't need one. People did as you do. Until they had someone start working and before they realized it sand and dust going everywhere and the two guys working were drinking and had their music turned full blast. Then when the marina told them to stop, they became belligerent saying the marina allowed others to do it all the time. They gave the guys orders to stop and to leave the following morning figuring they were now too intoxicated to leave this day. The ruckus continued. Finally they guys were removed by police arrested for public disturbance and public intoxication plus one swung and hit one of the policemen and was charged with assault on an officer.

So the Marina changed the rules to disallow it all. But they put in "Exceptions may be made by the dockmaster". The dockmaster then allowed others to continue as they always had.

The vast majority of live aboards are great people as are the majority of all people, in my opinion. I like people. Most are good. But it's those few who hurt the majority.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by leightonyachts

Actually a lot of the marina's in Washington State are owned by the ports who are the people that make up most of these rules who for the most part don't even own boats. and then the marinas don't want to loose all the tax dollar money they are getting so they are trying to impress the local government by upping the rules to make them even more restrictive.
fun fun

Yep the Port Authority.. they answer to no one and even have their own police force.. that answers to no one...except the PA. They can do whatever they want whenever they want.

[Capt Phil]

During my liveaboard life in SoCal and Mexico, it was always interspersed with cruising so we were away from the dock or anchorage for months at a time but always returned to the same areas we were fond of and familiar with. Marinas welcomed us back knowing we were living aboard, even in crowded San Diego. Our relationship with Marina management was characterized as one of mutual respect, we lived by their rules and they cut us a lot of slack when it came to working on our boat. I recall there being a rule that you could not perform work on parts of your boat on the dock, a rule I think that was intended to stop folks, for example, from tearing down a head and leaving bits and pieces lying around for weeks while waiting for parts. Yet, when I asked if I could lay out several sections of cabin sole to refinish, do all the sanding with a vacuum attachment and cover the dock with drop cloths before varnishing, I got the go-ahead. These were the same precautions i would have taken if I did the work aboard.
We spent about 13 years, off and on, at the same marinas, and became good friends not only with other liveaboards but particularly with the marina staff. I did find that marina management in Mexico was only too happy to go out of thier way to acommodate us over the years, though.
There was another liveaboard who obviously didn't have much pride in ownership, was drunk a fair bit of the time and belligerent most of the time in San Diego. After many attempts to evict the vessel, the marina was finally successful. That action drove the offending liveaboard to the anchorage about 50 yards off the marina. He would avail himself of landing at the marina dock, filling his water jugs, etc., until he was caught on CC vandalizing the pump out one night. While he was serving time for the vandalism, his boat was siezed as a derelict and, I believe, disposed of. What goes around, comes around.
I'm sure that the treatment of liveaboards has changed over the years but I wonder how much of this negativity is a result of lack of considerating of others by liveaboards themselves? Phil

[david7]

This thread has really opened my eyes to different points of view on the subject but why isn't anyone talking about trying to be more self sustaining. It seems like one of the big points of contention is waste disposal but what about using a composting head that you only have to empty once a month or so? I'm currently in a nice gated marina but just by virtue of living aboard my trash every week is a very small amount and I wouldn't feel too guilty about throwing it in the dumpster behind the supermarket where I buy groceries. Especially considering that the majority of it would end up in their recycling center and they would pay me to put it there. My boat isn't self sustaining electrically yet and I have no plans to go live on the hook but the one thing that would definitely hold me back is public perception and worrying that a sheriffs boat was going to come knocking on the hull telling me I had to go or worse. Maybe I'm just a dreamer but why do they make blanket laws when they could just take it case by case? I suppose the man power involved would cost too much. The only thing I can't figure out is where I'd park a dinghy that was accessible to my car. Shower and laundry I got covered on the boat.

[forsailbyowner]

I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there upon the uninformed public too. Once I was doing a job on the St Johns and told the client I had to run up the river to take care of sanitation duties. He just looked at me funny and didnt understand. I had to explain that the boat had a waste holding tank and had to be pumped out occasionally. I then told him I am pretty conscientious about this but not everybody is. He said yeah i can tell a lot of people dump their waste in the marina. Sometimes it smells real bad. I had to explain that the smell was from the ones that dont dump overboard because everytime they flush it evacuates air from the holding tank and you get a blast of stench. Gotta remember most landies have no idea whats going on and hear people poop in the water and think thats what everyone does.

The analogy with the dolphins only works if you live like a dolphin and move around a lot. I avoid anchorages many times just because I hate pulling that stinking feces ridden bottom into my anchor locker. Ive read some old chart books and the recommendations were sensible and reality based. It said only pump out in deeper waters away from congested areas that have good tidal flow.

My work is aboard, my home is aboard. I never stay in one place too long because my work doesnt last that long. If I do get mired down with multiple jobs I make sure to use the pumpout facilities. When people see you pumping out regularly they view you in a different light. St pete and gulfport come to mind in this area. Im known at both marinas and have had invitations to water up anytime.

[rognvald]

The bottom line is that derelict liveaboards, who never sail their boats, are effecting anchoring rights of people who do sail their boats . We should not demonize a man who has invested millions in a waterfront home-his dream, because he believes his view is despoiled by unsightly, unkempt vessels who pollute the water, create a noise nuisance and attract other derelict vessels like a homeless encampment. On the other hand, a boat in transit that is well maintained for sailing should be allowed the right to anchor as long as he has not decided to set up Winter camp in someone's backyard and is moving on a regular basis. There is a quid pro quo. The problem is that many who call themselves cruisers are not . . . they merely live on a boat. They do not help those in transit because many represent the worst in our sport rather than the best. That is the reality. When I first began sailing in South Florida during the late 70's, there were no issues regarding anchoring. Today, waterfront communities are reluctant to open their arms to sailors since they have been burned in the past by the worst of our lifestyle. We, as a community, need to confront this issue head-on if we want to maintain our rights to anchor and cruise without patronizing marinas. Once our rights are gone, they may never return. Good luck and good sailing.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by rognvald

The bottom line is that derelict liveaboards, who never sail their boats, are effecting anchoring rights of people who do sail their boats ..

Im not sure I can agree with any of this.

Here in the U.K. there a a territorial attitude towards property. If a person lives in a street with no garage, he will fight to keep the space in front of his house for his vehicle. An "assumed right", not a valid legal one.

People assume 'ownership' of views and domain because that is what they want. People also are afraid of anything different to what the norm is, so anyone living on a boat or spending time on a vessel is, in essence, a threat to them. We are all to be feared because we are in their territory and make them uncomfortable.

If we accept that some boaters are less than polite or dirty in habits, why is it we ALL got tainted? To be fair, some vessels cost 3 times as much as the house that the complaints emanate from.

Nope. Its selfishness and greed and a lack of desire to share anything if ownership or control is desired. Boaters are one step above Gypsies in stereotype, and Ive known some fabulous travelers who have to put up with the crap too. Thieves and tramps exist in every society, its just if you have a boat your labeled as not trustworthy or a sponger.

[Coops]

But the argument of the folks who cry "why it is not a free country?" is that they should be allowed to do what they want. The fact that this means that somebody else has a quality of life diminished by their actions is of no concern to them. They merely want to go about their selfish ways and complain when somebody tells them that they cannot.

"I want to be free and left alone" usually means "I do not care about anybody else but me."

Coops.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Coops

But the argument of the folks who cry "why it is not a free country?" is that they should be allowed to do what they want. The fact that this means that somebody else has a quality of life diminished by their actions is of no concern to them. They merely want to go about their selfish ways and complain when somebody tells them that they cannot.

"I want to be free and left alone" usually means "I do not care about anybody else but me."
Coops.

I have to agree. ITs a complaint that fits humanity not just boaters or shore dwellers. LOL...... both sides have issues.
its jes folks bein' selfish fer what they dang want ... and shore people are the majority and dont want to share or play.
dad gum it!

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Coops

..."I want to be free and left alone" usually means "I do not care about anybody else but me."...

It can also apply to those of us who have become exhausted under the overwhelming burden of rules, regulations and bureaucratic bs.

[rognvald]

Well, Coops and Weavis,
Your Socialist mantra is alive and well and, in fact, growing in numbers daily. We demonize those in society who have worked hard, invested their money wisely and have relied on their own skills and abilities to provide a life for themselves and their families. They are not a burden to society, but rather the force which keeps societies and economies healthy. When they have chosen to reap the rewards of their labor(like buying a home on the water), they are labeled selfish, greedy, and unwilling to share. On the other hand, those who have not taken this path by either lack of intelligence, skills, courage, sloth or lack of motivation but have chosen to be wards of their employers or the State are the "nobles hommes" of whom must suffer the transgressions of the hated rich. The reason that Europe is in collapse economically(with the exception of Germany), and the US following close behind is that without producers who buy those million dollar homes and are willing to invest personally in their countries, they can't survive. And when those with wealth decline or are taxed into oblivion, the system cannot survive since the tax base is insufficient to support the total cost of social services, yet unpaid, by the government. What does this have to do with the subject at hand? It was your digression, not mine, but in a Democracy there are rights that are applied equally to all, and the man with the house on the water has the same right to get what he paid for when he signed the contract--a beautiful home on the water . . . not a backyard to a homelss camp. Good luck, good sailing, and by all means, Brothers . . . Power to the People! Captain Rognvald