Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

[colemj]

Originally Posted by avb3

Mark, without being argumentative, why are the two prescription drugs I take, one from Germany and the other from Switzerland five times and three times as expensive in the US as in Canada? These are common drugs nothing exotic.

Canada does not have a free-market for pharmaceutical companies. They must negotiate prices with a primary purchaser that has a lot of power (the government). You will actually find that some drugs are not available in some countries because the pharmaceutical company and the government could not agree in negotiations and the pharmaceutical company decided not to sell in that market.

In the US, you are paying the free-market price for those drugs.

Yours is not an argumentative question in any way. I think you may have been confused in thinking that only US companies can partake in the US free market.

Mark

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Jimbo485

Are you using slang against such countries as:

Estados Unidos Mexicanos
Estados Unidos do Brasil
and various others....?

Look at the name of your country in your own passport. You are burying yourself deeper in your own ignorance....

Sorry, I can't help any further..... but I have to observe that it is this same attitude that stunts your health care, puts a man on the moon, invades a country on the basis of a lie, etc...

Respectfully have to disagree with this. I have been to Mexico and Brazil, most of Europe and a few other places. Common usage in every country I've visited is to refer to the United States of America as the United States (or Estados Unidos in Spanish) or the US or occasionally USA.

What is not considered polite by some is to call it America or the citizens Americans, even though that designation is used not just by many US citizens but also many friends in Europe. The point being we are indeed only one country of many in the Americas, North, Central and South.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CatInHand

.
These events are a minority compared to general care throughout a lifetime.

We are talking about prescriptive healthcare here , lets not dance on semantics. In any prescriptive healthcare the consumer has little option but to " buy" the procedure or the associated prescriptive drugs.

We not talking about the anadin market

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by colemj

Canada does not have a free-market for pharmaceutical companies. They must negotiate prices with a primary purchaser that has a lot of power (the government). You will actually find that some drugs are not available in some countries because the pharmaceutical company and the government could not agree in negotiations and the pharmaceutical company decided not to sell in that market.

In the US, you are paying the free-market price for those drugs.

Yours is not an argumentative question in any way. I think you may have been confused in thinking that only US companies can partake in the US free market.

Mark

Lets just stay within the bounds of most people's Healthcare needs , not the exotics. We are talking about normal elective treatments and common emergency treatments.

Dave

[colemj]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In the prescription drugs market the consumer is COMPLETLY constrained. He or she cannot change the prescription , cannot forgo the treatment ( or die which is absurd ) a person with a genetic predisposition to high cholesterol or hypertension does not have a lot of " options"

Hence it is not a free market. The consumer is effectively " forced" to by the product. When you allow a free market supply , you get profiteering , which is not a form of collusion , it is a function of the inelasticity of demand.

No more then if you gave 3M the rights to the atmosphere. !!!

Dave

I understand how you are thinking, but the elasticity is greater than you think. For example, the patient can change the prescription to a generic and less expensive drug if available. The patient can choose a pharmacy where the drug is 50% less than another pharmacy (Walmart and Costco have driven down drug prices more than anyone). The patient can mail-order their drug from either a wholesaler or another country (within legal restrictions). The patient can order a 3 month supply at a much cheaper price than a 2-week supply. The patient can walk across a border and buy it for less.

Not perfect elasticity, but also not the rigidness you think.

Let me ask this - ignoring the ethical/emotional aspects of relative necessity, how much elasticity is present in buying a specific make and model of new car? Do you find dealers and prices not controlled by the manufacturer? Do you find 50% swings in prices between dealers? Is it possible to travel to other cities/states/countries to get a better deal on an automobile?

Do you consider that a free market?

Mark

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by colemj

I already did. In a previous post. Meetings are held with economists, lawyers, etc and the market for the product is determined and dissected. Pricing is set based on what those market conditions will bear.

There is no collusion with service providers or insurance companies or governments to set high prices. They price to what the market will bear. The prices are not higher, because the profits would be lower. The same for why the prices are not lower.

Mark

This isn't a description of a free market. This is a description of how the pharmaceutical company analyzes the regulatory and market forces in order to price products, and then tries to manipulate those forces as much as possible through lobbying efforts.

Do you even know what a free market is?

If you want to know exactly how easy this market is to manipulate, see this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/us...care.html?_r=0

There are lots of vested interests trying to protect their profits, and legislation/regulation is very critical.


Often, pharmaceutical companies get caught directly colluding with each other to set prices, and then they pay big fines.

Simply google "pharmaceutical company price fixing", and you will find countless numbers of these incidences.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Lets just stay within the bounds of most people's Healthcare needs , not the exotics. We are talking about normal elective treatments and common emergency treatments.

Dave

I don't understand. I was just talking about normal prescription drug prices in Canada vs. the US.

Mark

[avb3]

Originally Posted by CatInHand

There are actually two price structures for prescription drugs depending on the patent status.

If a drug is patented, you pay what the manufacturer thinks you should pay, otherwise it's pretty much free market.

Are your drugs still under patent in the U.S.?

They are under patent in both countries.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by colemj

For example, the patient can change the prescription to a generic and less expensive drug if available. The patient can choose a pharmacy where the drug is 50% less than another pharmacy (Walmart and Costco have driven down drug prices more than anyone). The patient can mail-order their drug from either a wholesaler or another country (within legal restrictions). The patient can order a 3 month supply at a much cheaper price than a 2-week supply. The patient can walk across a border and buy it for less.

Mark

If a patient has pharmaceutical coverage with a fixed co-pay, what is their incentive to do this?

Much of the cross-border pharmaceutical purchasing is regulated or illegal.

Wouldn't it be better to open up the markets, at least in the cases where the prescription drug is exactly the same product?

[CatInHand]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

We are talking about prescriptive healthcare here , lets not dance on semantics. In any prescriptive healthcare the consumer has little option but to " buy" the procedure or the associated prescriptive drugs.

We not talking about the anadin market

Dave

It has been my experience that the majority of prescription drugs are, in reality, optional.

Proper health for a lifetime virtually eliminates the need for most drugs.

Rarely do you need drugs for hypertension, illness, impotence, heartburn, high cholesterol, etc.

One has to wonder how necessary many of the mood-altering drugs would be if other methods were available (group therapy or something).

How many of these would really be necessary with better diet and exercise?

The 10 Most Prescribed Drugs

Hydrocodone (combined with acetaminophen) -- 131.2 million prescriptions
Generic Zocor (simvastatin), a cholesterol-lowering statin drug -- 94.1 million prescriptions
Lisinopril (brand names include Prinivil and Zestril), a blood pressure drug -- 87.4 million prescriptions
Generic Synthroid (levothyroxine sodium), synthetic thyroid hormone -- 70.5 million prescriptions
Generic Norvasc (amlodipine besylate), an angina/blood pressure drug -- 57.2 million prescriptions
Generic Prilosec (omeprazole), an antacid drug -- 53.4 million prescriptions (does not include over-the-counter sales)
Azithromycin (brand names include Z-Pak and Zithromax), an antibiotic -- 52.6 million prescriptions
Amoxicillin (various brand names), an antibiotic -- 52.3 million prescriptions
Generic Glucophage (metformin), a diabetes drug -- 48.3 million prescriptions
Hydrochlorothiazide (various brand names), a water pill used to lower blood pressure -- 47.8 million prescriptions.

[CatInHand]

Originally Posted by avb3

They are under patent in both countries.

Then you're paying the price that the US company that sells the drug has set.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by CatInHand

It has been my experience that the majority of prescription drugs are, in reality, optional.

Proper health for a lifetime virtually eliminates the need for most drugs.

Rarely do you need drugs for hypertension, illness, impotence, heartburn, high cholesterol, etc.

One has to wonder how necessary many of the mood-altering drugs would be if other methods were available (group therapy or something).

How many of these would really be necessary with better diet and exercise?

The 10 Most Prescribed Drugs

True. But the health care industry would lose lots of profits.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by colemj

I understand how you are thinking, but the elasticity is greater than you think. For example, the patient can change the prescription to a generic and less expensive drug if available. The patient can choose a pharmacy where the drug is 50% less than another pharmacy (Walmart and Costco have driven down drug prices more than anyone). The patient can mail-order their drug from either a wholesaler or another country (within legal restrictions). The patient can order a 3 month supply at a much cheaper price than a 2-week supply. The patient can walk across a border and buy it for less.

Not perfect elasticity, but also not the rigidness you think.

Let me ask this - ignoring the ethical/emotional aspects of relative necessity, how much elasticity is present in buying a specific make and model of new car? Do you find dealers and prices not controlled by the manufacturer? Do you find 50% swings in prices between dealers? Is it possible to travel to other cities/states/countries to get a better deal on an automobile?

Do you consider that a free market?

Mark

There is a fundamental difference. One can't forgo treatment , whereas one can not only change ones choice of car completely , one can forgo the whole purchase without life threatening consequences.

Maybe your wife writes you a prescription for a new car and you feel you can't buy anything else. The rest of us have a gamut running from a crap banger to rolls Royce and ultimately abstinence , that " feedback " loop controls pricing because there is significant elasticity of demand.

Prescriptive Healthcare consumers has no such options and its ridiculous to argue they do. I talking both about medical procedures, hospital stay costs and prescription drugs.

Dave

[colemj]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

This isn't a description of a free market. This is a description of how the pharmaceutical company analyzes the regulatory and market forces in order to price products, and then tries to manipulate those forces as much as possible through lobbying efforts.

Do you even know what a free market is?

If you want to know exactly how easy this market is to manipulate, see this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/us...care.html?_r=0

There are lots of vested interests trying to protect their profits, and legislation/regulation is very critical.


Often, pharmaceutical companies get caught directly colluding with each other to set prices, and then they pay big fines.

Simply google "pharmaceutical company price fixing", and you will find countless numbers of these incidences.

Wow, I don't know what to say to you anymore. "Analyz(ing) the regulatory and market forces in order to price products" isn't how free markets work? Can you think of any other companies operating in free markets that do not analyze the regulatory and market forces to set prices?

You then throw on lobbying for good measure. Can you think of any free-market industries that also have lobbyists? Does having lobbyists disqualify them as operating in a free-market?

I suggest you google your own phrase and actually read those articles. You will find that the collusion and price fixing is on the generic side of the equation, not the NCE side.

Please explain to me how a company with patent protection to be the sole manufacturer and distributor of a drug can collude with other companies to fix the price of that drug. I will give you a hint: the key words are patent protection and sole supplier. Look up "collusion" and "price-fixing" and compare to those key words.

Mark

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by colemj

I don't understand. I was just talking about normal prescription drug prices in Canada vs. the US.

Mark

I meant this isn't about the price of aspirin

Dave