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Old 25-10-2020, 21:27   #16
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Re: accommodation design

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Tom Hanks lived on a boat like that in Sleepless in Seattle?, no?
No, he lived in a floating house. I have a picture somewhere of the exact house from the movie.
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Old 25-10-2020, 22:32   #17
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Re: accommodation design

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its my novice opinion that boat interiors are designed with too many people in mind



i plan to buy a liveaboard soon. i was thinking about buying a fixer upper and gutting the interior. was sorta thinking mid 30s in length



i would make it suitable for 2 people to liveaboard and possible to entertain up to four people for a day sailing trip, but dont see the need to design an interior equipped to accommodate 8 people overnight.



my early inclination is to prioritize AC and DC power throughout, a front load refrigerator, proper heating and cooling, electric stove, shower stall, comfortable seating, and an aft master. being that i'll be building an all new interior i could change all electrical and mechanical systems to suit whatever configuration i choose.



i'm a general contractor and handyman. i also have more ambition and creativity than sense at times.



i just think i can design an interior better suited to my needs than any manufacturer provided one can.



anyone else think like me?

I mostly agree with your premise that boats are designed with too much of a focus on sleeping ďnumbersĒ.

I have recently gutted my bot back to a bare hull and refitted her to my needs with this in mind.

However, some of your posts after this one worry me:

First, be aware that many, many boats, if not the majority these days, are dependent on interior bulkheads for structural integrity. As such, you may be much more limited in your design than you initially assume, certainly more than a 3D CAD package would suggest.

Second, some of the things you want to squeeze into a 30 footer would not fit in my very broad beamed 42 footer.

Finally, it has been said before, but Iíll repeat it, you really have to live on a boat for a while before you can make major alterations without a very good chance of having to remake them all again later. Subtle stuff can take a while to become evident. Case in point, the PO of my boat had swapped the traditional positions of the sink and stove. I faithfully recreated his layout during my refit only to realise that he is a lot shorter than me and the traditional layout was chosen because it is way better for someone of average height like me.

I disagree with those that assert it will all be much harder than you think and it will never get finished. I do accept that many boats do end up as gutted project boats but not all. If you know how to WORK, and KEEP WORKING, it can be done and it is very, very rewarding. In my case it has been two very rewarding years while juggling many other things in my life but the results exceeded my wildest dreams and I now have a boat that works very well for me.
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Old 26-10-2020, 00:25   #18
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Re: accommodation design

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Originally Posted by Drcaptain View Post
i plan to spend most of my time at the marina using shore power and then coastal cruising on weekends. the boat will function primarily as a living space first, sailboat second.

so my thinking was to prioritize shore power (AC) and have the DC (battery) system as a less used option when away from the marina. i wasn't planning on a generator, thought i'd charge batteries from shore power or possible add green charging systems if my coastal cruising habits aren't scratching my itch.

i'm thinking of an electric stove to run off AC when hooked to shore power as that will be where i spend most of my time. a practical, functioning kitchen is a must. AC electricity also doesn't involve switching tanks, or adding fuel.

i had already considered the boats movement on a front load fridge. i have several options in mind to mitigate.

i just outfitted a 16' enclosed work trailer with AC/DC systems and with hose and holding tank water. i hook up to water and power via RV water and 30amp hook ups when parked. i've got endless fresh water and ample power to run microwave, coffee maker, compressor, and whatever tools i'm using at the time. also have the option to switch my water supply from holding tank to hose supply when hooked up to it. i installed all this in 1" thick walls so i figure a sailboat will have more room than that. these two systems will share wire, i'll only need to flip a switch to change from shore to battery power, or maybe not at all. there may be something that switches automatically. Research and development currently under way.

i'm aware too of structural components. i don't intend to remove any. they will be built into my final configuration. i also know that boat interiors are irregular.

i was planning on a mid 30s to 40 foot monohull

littlewing77 i'm not gutting just to put everything back. i'm going to gut and reconfigure for 2 people to liveaboard, comfortably, and with proper amenities. think studio apartment. layout is easier without having to accommodate six adults. i think you missed the thesis of my argument.

the settee for 6, the first to get nixed. its a terrible space hog.
The first problem with this plan is COST. The interior fitout is the costliest element of a cruising sailboat. You will spend more than the cost of the boat doing a custom one. It will be a sheer waste of money, because after you do all this, the boat will be worth LESS than when you started. If you do it yourself, you will spend years on it and STILL spend a ton of money.

The second problem is that without experience you won't know those aspects of the configuration of the interior which are specific to sailboats. There is a lot of accumulated experience in the layout of sailboats -- they are not just floating studio apartments, and they are almost nothing like "travel trailers", because there are no straight lines anywhere and no square volumes and the functional requirements are different.

So I would strongly urge you to forget this plan and just look for a boat with a layout which more or less appeals to you. Even if you don't completely like it now, lacking experience, you will soon understand why this and that is done that way. You will need to at least live on a boat for a few years before you will have any chance of having much of value to contribute to the art of boat design.

And if you want to live aboard comfortably just buy a bigger boat. This is much cheaper and better than trying to rebuild and torture a small one into a configuration you like. There are "charter" and "owner" types of layouts -- just look for an "owner" layout. In 40' to 45' you will find owner layouts with two or three cabins and one or two shower/heads compartments. For what you want, two cabins and one shower/heads is probably better, but there really isn't anything wrong with three sleeping cabins for a boat mostly used by two people -- the extra two cabins INSTANTLY fill up with stuff since there is so little storage space on typical cruising boats and so much boat-specific stuff you need to store (you'll discover this later), and once in a while you'll invite a guest or family member and will want a place for these people to sleep. Even on my boat, which is 54' and more than double the interior volume of a 40-footer, with three sleeping cabins (plus passage cabin) and two shower/heads compartments, I am very happy sailing with one or two people, and the other cabins don't just sit empty -- they are full of different stuff. With four people and two cabins occupied, it's optimum. With 5 or 6 people now suddenly I don't have a spare cabin to keep stuff in (luggage, cockpit cushions, helm covers and other canvas, tool bags, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.) and it starts to be a squeeze. Get it? It means you will be very happy with two or three cabins even if you are just one or two people, and you will NOT like being on board, especially living on board long term, with only one sleeping cabin, even if you are alone.

I agree with you about front-loading refrigerators and electric cooking, as a lot of us do. If you look hard you will find a boat with a front-loader -- mine has one for example (and a separate freezer). You find them on bigger boats. As far as electric cooking is concerned, induction is fantastic and a lot of people would like to have gimbled induction cookers, but these are hard to find and bloody expensive, plus you won't be able to power it when you're not at a dock unless you run the generator all the time. So do what a lot of us do and live with your gas stove (learn about gas safety on boats, too -- it's not simple, with totally different challenges from gas safety in RV's) but add a portable induction hot plate for use at the dock. This works great, and the combination of induction and gas is actually very good because (a) 90% of the time you will be using only one burner anyway so the induction hot plate is all you need most of the time; (b) the other 10% when you are using multiple burners at the same time, you would need so much power if you had only induction, that even shore power might get overloaded. So using a single induction burner plus gas for the overflow cooking (and when there is no shore power) is very convenient.

Don't try to re-invent the wheel, not even having ridden a bicycle. It will end neither well nor cheaply.

What concerns engineering systems: everything you want can be found in a boat which was built that way in the first place. A built-in heavy duty generator will give you autonomy and power wherever you are -- you can find this in somewhat bigger boats (avoid Fisher Panda and other high speed, light duty generators). There will be AC power available all over the boat and a good AC distribution system. Read these forums about how electrical systems are configured on live aboard boats. You will be able to find a boat which is more or less ready to use.

As far as heat is concerned -- if you are using the boat in a cool climate, you will want to use electric heat at the dock (fan heaters or oil filled radiators, but pay attention to safety and particularly the integrity of the electrical system, sockets, shore power inlet, etc.) and diesel heat off of the dock. On a bigger boat, hydronic heat is best -- Eberspacher/Espar, Webasto, Planar, etc. On a smaller one a bulkhead heater like a Sig or Dickenson has some advantages (simplicity). Not all boats in mild climates were built with heating systems, but these can be added without too much trouble. Good heat is important if you use the boat year round. Not just for staying warm, but for keeping the boat dry on the inside. This is a bigger challenge on boats, than with RV's/travel trailers.

Lastly: look for a boat with a washing machine, and preferably, washer/dryer. This is key to comfortable life on board.

You are not the first person to live aboard a sailboat and there are solutions for all of the challenges. You should learn those first before you start to invent something new.

Good luck!
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Old 26-10-2020, 00:37   #19
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Re: accommodation design

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Originally Posted by GILow View Post
. . .First, be aware that many, many boats, if not the majority these days, are dependent on interior bulkheads for structural integrity. As such, you may be much more limited in your design than you initially assume, certainly more than a 3D CAD package would suggest.

Second, some of the things you want to squeeze into a 30 footer would not fit in my very broad beamed 42 footer.

Finally, it has been said before, but I’ll repeat it, you really have to live on a boat for a while before you can make major alterations without a very good chance of having to remake them all again later. . . .
Three extremely important points. Read and re-read.

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. . . I disagree with those that assert it will all be much harder than you think and it will never get finished. I do accept that many boats do end up as gutted project boats but not all. If you know how to WORK, and KEEP WORKING, it can be done and it is very, very rewarding. In my case it has been two very rewarding years while juggling many other things in my life but the results exceeded my wildest dreams and I now have a boat that works very well for me.
If you do it yourself because you enjoy the process -- than by all means.

But if your main purpose is USING the boat, then in almost no case can this ever be worthwhile. Maybe if the boat was free and you consider your labor to be free and you don't care about the resale value AND you figure you are immortal. For all these reasons, a rather small percentage of boats which are gutted for total refit with the owner's own labor ever get finished. Word to the wise. It is vastly more complicated and difficult than fitting out a travel trailer, and will be a lot more complicated and difficult than you assume, if you've never done it before.
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Old 26-10-2020, 03:28   #20
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accommodation design

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...
If you do it yourself because you enjoy the process -- than by all means.

But if your main purpose is USING the boat, then in almost no case can this ever be worthwhile. Maybe if the boat was free and you consider your labor to be free and you don't care about the resale value AND you figure you are immortal. For all these reasons, a rather small percentage of boats which are gutted for total refit with the owner's own labor ever get finished. Word to the wise. It is vastly more complicated and difficult than fitting out a travel trailer, and will be a lot more complicated and difficult than you assume, if you've never done it before.

I dunno mate. I respect your thoughts on this one, but honestly, having just been through this process I feel there is a bit of a disconnect here.

Boats of my era (40 years old) were routinely fitted out by their owners and their value is now determined as an average based on that legacy fitout quality. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a fresh fitout will have at least the effect of moving the boat to the better end of that average sale price range.

Iím not sure Iíd like to look at the project at an hourly rate though.

I just think there is too much of a negative take on this stuff. Itís not as black and white as is often made out here on CF. And although it has been a lot of work, it just has not been as much is often portrayed.

There was a couple cruising around in something around 36 feet long who were interior designers or something like it. They have a YouTube channel (doesnít everyone these days) and they refreshed the interior of their boat very simply and very well without much effort. I think their approach would be one for the OP to consider. Someone here might be able to figure who they are and share it here for the OP.
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Old 26-10-2020, 08:02   #21
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Re: accommodation design

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I dunno mate. I respect your thoughts on this one, but honestly, having just been through this process I feel there is a bit of a disconnect here.

Boats of my era (40 years old) were routinely fitted out by their owners and their value is now determined as an average based on that legacy fitout quality. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a fresh fitout will have at least the effect of moving the boat to the better end of that average sale price range.

Iím not sure Iíd like to look at the project at an hourly rate though.

I just think there is too much of a negative take on this stuff. Itís not as black and white as is often made out here on CF. And although it has been a lot of work, it just has not been as much is often portrayed.

There was a couple cruising around in something around 36 feet long who were interior designers or something like it. They have a YouTube channel (doesnít everyone these days) and they refreshed the interior of their boat very simply and very well without much effort. I think their approach would be one for the OP to consider. Someone here might be able to figure who they are and share it here for the OP.

Sailing UMA. Dan and kika started sailing after their architecture degree. I think they are canadians? Good luck paying off 7 years of college loans otherwise.

They did scratch their architecture itch a bit with the boat though.
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Old 26-10-2020, 13:43   #22
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Re: accommodation design

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Sailing UMA. Dan and kika started sailing after their architecture degree. I think they are canadians? Good luck paying off 7 years of college loans otherwise.



They did scratch their architecture itch a bit with the boat though.


Thank you, that was the pair.

I really did like what they did with the interior. And given how much time goes into that quality of YouTube video they must have had SOME free time at the end of the day.
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Old 28-10-2020, 00:49   #23
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Re: accommodation design

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Thank you, that was the pair.

I really did like what they did with the interior. And given how much time goes into that quality of YouTube video they must have had SOME free time at the end of the day.
I donít think they actually moved stuff around that much, though? They opened it up a bit by taking out some non-structural bits and bobs and I donít think they have a proper dinette table anymore (been a while since I watched a video) but I donít remember them completely changing around the layout?
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Old 28-10-2020, 00:58   #24
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Re: accommodation design

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I donít think they actually moved stuff around that much, though? They opened it up a bit by taking out some non-structural bits and bobs and I donít think they have a proper dinette table anymore (been a while since I watched a video) but I donít remember them completely changing around the layout?


Not sure how much they did, probably not a heck of a lot, but I thought their treatment of surfaces was clever and quick. They are a good example of how to save a lot of time on cosmetics, which I think are some of the most time consuming aspects of a traditional boat fitout.

Also I rather like their aesthetic. It is extremely similar to how Iíve done my interior. I know a lot of people didnít like it at all though.
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Old 28-10-2020, 01:48   #25
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Re: accommodation design

They only reshaped some of the bulkheads, rest of it was just material finishes and clever furniture ideas.

A mid 30s mono hull is not a lot of boat for all the things the OP wants to add. There is no way an aft stateroom can be added when it wasn't designed to have one in the first place, it needs to be a center cockpit. A hallberg rassy 352 pretty much has everything the OP wants. He can convert the v berth into a shower and laundry room perhaps. And it's cheap enough so there is not too much to loose.

But, again, a nauticat 331 has everything he wants. If you want all that accomodation in a mid 30 footer a naticat is what you end up with.
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Old 28-10-2020, 02:06   #26
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Re: accommodation design

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They only reshaped some of the bulkheads, rest of it was just material finishes and clever furniture ideas.

A mid 30s mono hull is not a lot of boat for all the things the OP wants to add. There is no way an aft stateroom can be added when it wasn't designed to have one in the first place, it needs to be a center cockpit. A hallberg rassy 352 pretty much has everything the OP wants. He can convert the v berth into a shower and laundry room perhaps. And it's cheap enough so there is not too much to loose.

But, again, a nauticat 331 has everything he wants. If you want all that accomodation in a mid 30 footer a naticat is what you end up with.
Yes, I did comment to the OP that I couldn't fit their want-list in my 42 footer.
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Old 28-10-2020, 02:19   #27
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Re: accommodation design

I am in the middle of updating the interior in a 1997 built Savage Oceanic 46' (Centre Cockpit).
Briefly: Design layout is OK/standard with fore and aft cabins each having a head.
Teak veneer and teak trims made for a very dark interior.
Removed all the teak veneer, glass over the ply, 3 layers of fill and now in white primer.
All systems worn out, so new everything, pumps, hot water service, wiring etc.
I now totally understand the effort involved and how slow progress is. I would have been much better off selecting a later model boat with a more modern interior (all other things being equal) rather than altering this one.
The hours required whether paid for by $ or your own time are far greater than you will estimate and with that the requirement to keep up your motivation are factors to consider.
Of course what is impossible to calculate is the pleasure driving a project in your own direction to your own destination, getting there and then using it.
No easy or right answer, just go in with your eyes open.
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