A Open Heart Monologue On The Final Decision

[stefano_ita]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Just quoting the ad? Have you seen it?

Yes, it does not say how many engine hours, for the rest it does look nice, except the hull

Yachts Sales Yachts Charters in greece. > Yachts Brokerage, Sailing Yachts for sale in Greece > Skipper 53

They have another one,same price, with mermaid ford 90 hp engine...

Yachts Sales Yachts Charters in greece. > Yachts Brokerage, Sailing Yachts for sale in Greece > Skipper 53


What do you think about in mast furling mainsail? Just another complicated stuff tha can get broken or useful?


P.S. Need to ask if they are ex charter...Same year, same price...Strange..

p.s.2 The omega 56 is far way better...Easy to understand...Even for me

[GregoryK]

You are in Italy, and right now there are a lot of inexpensive boats just across the Adriatic in Greece. You can get a LOT of boat for under 60000 Euros, and that would leave you 20000 euros or more for repairs and modifications.
I wouldn't bother looking a a small cheap boat if you can afford one you intend to keep, and with prices in Greece as low as they are now is a good time to be buying.

(Sail) Boats For Sale Greece

[stefano_ita]

Yeah, in fact my most looking boat are all from grece

[nauticalnomad]

My boats shaped the same. That tumblehome will handle well in any ocean.

[TrentePieds]

Stephano:

Quote: "What if build a pratically cheap sailboat?"

You CANNOT build a "practically cheap" boat! These are the numbers: A 30 footer will have a displacement of roughly 10,000 lbs, say 4,500Kg. To build a boat cost the same per lbs displacement as it does to buy a pound of the very best beef you can find: US$15 per lb. Call that Eu 37 per Kg displacement or Eu 165,000 for a 30 footer.

Displacement increases according to the 3rd power of the increase in length so a 60 footer will have a displacement of about 8 times (2 x 2 x 2) the displacement of a 30 footer (because boats are three-dimensional), i.e 80,000lbs.

The cost of the bare hull is roughly 10% of the "sail-away" cost of a boat, the remaining 90% being for rigging and sails and other equipment you cannot make yourself such as anchor capstans. Some of this equipment, due to the greater stresses in bigger boats, may, for a 60 footer cost up to 12 times what it would cost for a 30 footer rather than merely 8 times as much.

Replacement value for my ground tackle (not including the capstan) in TrentePieds is roughly Can$1,000, call it Eu1,425. For a 60 footer it would be Eu6,000. My capstan has a retail price of Can$2,500 from Vetus in Holland. for a 60 footer count on a minimum of Eu4,500.

My 30-year old Vetus M3-10 (Mitsubishi K3D) 20 horsepower diesel would cost Can$6,000 to rebuild. Probably about $15,000 to replace with the current equivalent. For an engine big enough for a 60-footer you'd be looking at Eu85,000. That's before the reduction/reversing gearbox, the stern gear and the propeller.

And so it goes - you get the idea. Others on this site can give you a better idea of the cost of gear for grown-up boats because they've seen the movie!

Now if you want to come over here to find a 30 footer to get your sea legs on, you can get a good used one for, say, Eu12,000 - a boat capable of going down the west coast of the US, through The Canal, across the Caribbean and the Atlantic, and into the Mediterranean, although you, yourself, may not be up to a voyage like that just yet.

Shipping on deck of a freighter and paying your import duty and VAT in Italy would still cost you less than trying to build, and even to buy here and sail her "home".

You need to be very, very careful about plans to charter! There are tight, tight hull construction regulations, that have to be met to obtain a seaworthiness license for the purpose. The Italian equivalent of our Department of Transport will want to inspect any "home-built" boat, and it is doubtful that our DOT would approve such a boat for the charter trade. The Italian equivalent of our DOT is probably even more persnickety. There are tight, tight regulations (at least here in Canada) regarding the skipper's qualifications. Last time I looked, to get the appropriate "ticket" you had to have at least five years of "sea time" under a qualified skipper holding the appropriate license. There are good reasons for that!

I have no desire to be a "wet blanket", but I would consider myself remiss if I didn't offer you some reality-based things to think about. Consider also that there have been books written about how to be a good shipmate. It's not something that comes naturally to most people, and minor irritations become major issues if the budget has no slack in it. And that will be the case if you lumber yourself with a bigger boat than you are ready for.

By my lights, for extended local cruising, even here where the weather is colder and wetter than in the Med, 30 feet is the "sweet spot". Big enough for a man and his maid to live in for several months at a time, and small enough that it doesn't keep you perpetually so broke that forfeiting of the boat is an ever threatening danger.

Just some things to include in your considerations :-)

TrentePieds

[Nikki S]

Stefano, like the others said, Start small with something affordable. Don't blow all your money on your dream boat yet. Enjoy the life aboard, embrace the challenges, and if you discover you love it, those "housey" comforts will seem less important. You may even redefine what your dream boat actually is. €80,000 doesn't sound enough to me to build a safe 7berth motorsailor if you also want, sails, generator, nav gear, Epirbs , life jackets, first aid kit, tool kit, and maybe a washing machine... I would want €800,000 - but as I don't have that much money, we bought the safest strongest yacht within our budget that has enough space and comforts to get by- good Nav gear was important to us, and a second hand boat usually has a lot of gear on board already. Goodluck. I hope you do it!

[tinkrman69]

You won't find an answer here. If your unhappy there is no place in the world of even this universe you can go that will make you happy. Happiness is a decision. You either decide to be happy or you decide not to be happy.

I live on the sea because I like the adventure, the people I meet, the beauty of the unspoiled places I can get to along the coasts of the oceans and water ways. Living in the sea is less complicated to me than living on the hill. There is a great freedom there.

So if your looking to a boat and the sea life to make you happy, you won't find it. No mater how much money you throw at it. Hell the more money you throw in the heavier the mantle around your neck and the harder it will be to see where the happiness is. because that place where the happiness? is inside you, under that mantle.

as far as becoming a charter boat captan/owner. If you don't have good experience and knowledge about seamanship and navigation, you'll be putting a lot of peoples "lives" in your hands. Mother ocean doesn't do "do/overs" That experience and knowledge takes years of work to acquire. you don't start out with a 5 star restaurant and then figure out how to cook. you start with a kitchen and learn to cook and move onto a diner and so forth. I know one man that started with a truck and now has a nice restaurant that has bought him and his family a pretty nice house and yearly vacations abroad. Two element in all that; Time and effort.

As was mentioned earlier, regrets. the only regrets I ever had were not trying to do some thing. and yes I have failed many things and learned something from those failures, hence they were made positive and there was no need for regrets.

if we never did anything because of the fear of failure we'd still be freezing in a cave trying to make more babies to keep us warm.;-) all success was preceded by failure. Thank god for risk takers. without them I wouldn't know what a boat is and that big wet thing out there? certain death, cause even if I could swim all the way out there I'd fall off the edge of the world.

So, lets get real. You want happiness? Look inside!!!!!!!!

[Sandero]

The problem for many with dreams and visions... is that the skip over the hard work and time it takes to get close to the dream. You can almost take anything... not just a sailing thing... take ballet, for example. A young person sees ballet and is enchanted by the beauty and skill of a ballerina... and dreams about dancing Swan Lake on stage. There is no short cut to being a ballet dancer. It literally takes no less than a decade and virtually daily practice and training with professionals to even be invited into a company... let alone rise in the ranks to principal dancer. Most youngsters who have the vision also accept the challenge and discipline of years of study. They enjoy and learn from their journey. There are no short cuts. You can't buy an elite teacher and short cut the process.

Some one looks at a boat as something one can simply buy and then operate... a business that one can buy or name and then operate... Well yes and no... technically you can buy a boat but to charter it you need to pass certain regulatory hurdles at a minimum. You could buy a qualified boat and hire a qualified captain and pay qualified engineers to take care of the boat... and you could live on it... much like a mega yacht owner does.

Your vision is fine... You will just have to come to terms with the fact that it tales a lot of time and probably more money than you think it will to get there. And everyone who has done it... has traveled that path before you. The good news is that you can (and should) learn from them!

No way to acquire instant wisdom.

++++

I was introduce to the "sailing experience" in middle age. I, like so many before me was smitten with the who ball of wax. Within a year I had decided to get into it. I bought read every book I could find... this was in the mid 80s before the www.... I took a course in sailing, in meteoroly, several in navigation including celestial... I read all the magazines back then and in a year I bought the boat...a new 36' "racer cruisser"... which I still have today. I wanted to be able to sail offshore. The surveyor told me the boat was well found but not equipped to sail off shore. I spent 6 years fitting the boat out and "learning to sail" her in as many conditions as I could find in that period. My final test was the Marion Bermuda race... Although I am not a racer I wanted to do an ocean passage in a somewhat supervised event... We were not allowed to use electronic position fixers GPS or Loran.... nor auto pilot. We encountered very very nasty weather in the Gulf Stream... a storm that would a few days later on its way across the North Atlantic... sink Mike Plant who was on his way to the BOC challenge. Everyone on our boat (6) was sea sick... but the boat did fine and nothing broke. I know that I was good to go and in the Fall of 91 I did... a full 6 years after buying the boat. And this was what it took for a complete noobie to get there with a very intense learn to cruise program.

The sea is very unforgiving. As a captain you take the responsibility for the safety of your crew and passengers. This is nothing to take lightly.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by Sandero

The problem for many with dreams and visions... is that they skip over the hard work and time it takes to get close to the dream... As a captain you take the responsibility for the safety of your crew and passengers. This is nothing to take lightly.

But take it lightly they do. I think it's criminal to put family and friends into the occasional life/death, and more often scary situations the Captain Blithes of the world do. The family/friends have to have faith, and it's often undeserved. After a lot of experience, one may learn how to cope in extremis, but for most of us the ocean gets scarier as the wind pipes up.

[TrentePieds]

At LizzyBelle #52

Quote: "They usually run for the hills - almost literally"

In Holland????

TrentePieds

[Lizzy Belle]

We have hills! Not many, and definitely no impressive hills, but they are hills nonetheless

[stefano_ita]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Stephano:

Quote: "What if build a pratically cheap sailboat?"

You CANNOT build a "practically cheap" boat! These are the numbers: A 30 footer will have a displacement of roughly 10,000 lbs, say 4,500Kg. To build a boat cost the same per lbs displacement as it does to buy a pound of the very best beef you can find: US$15 per lb. Call that Eu 37 per Kg displacement or Eu 165,000 for a 30 footer.

Displacement increases according to the 3rd power of the increase in length so a 60 footer will have a displacement of about 8 times (2 x 2 x 2) the displacement of a 30 footer (because boats are three-dimensional), i.e 80,000lbs.

The cost of the bare hull is roughly 10% of the "sail-away" cost of a boat, the remaining 90% being for rigging and sails and other equipment you cannot make yourself such as anchor capstans. Some of this equipment, due to the greater stresses in bigger boats, may, for a 60 footer cost up to 12 times what it would cost for a 30 footer rather than merely 8 times as much.

Replacement value for my ground tackle (not including the capstan) in TrentePieds is roughly Can$1,000, call it Eu1,425. For a 60 footer it would be Eu6,000. My capstan has a retail price of Can$2,500 from Vetus in Holland. for a 60 footer count on a minimum of Eu4,500.

My 30-year old Vetus M3-10 (Mitsubishi K3D) 20 horsepower diesel would cost Can$6,000 to rebuild. Probably about $15,000 to replace with the current equivalent. For an engine big enough for a 60-footer you'd be looking at Eu85,000. That's before the reduction/reversing gearbox, the stern gear and the propeller.

And so it goes - you get the idea. Others on this site can give you a better idea of the cost of gear for grown-up boats because they've seen the movie!

Now if you want to come over here to find a 30 footer to get your sea legs on, you can get a good used one for, say, Eu12,000 - a boat capable of going down the west coast of the US, through The Canal, across the Caribbean and the Atlantic, and into the Mediterranean, although you, yourself, may not be up to a voyage like that just yet.

Shipping on deck of a freighter and paying your import duty and VAT in Italy would still cost you less than trying to build, and even to buy here and sail her "home".

You need to be very, very careful about plans to charter! There are tight, tight hull construction regulations, that have to be met to obtain a seaworthiness license for the purpose. The Italian equivalent of our Department of Transport will want to inspect any "home-built" boat, and it is doubtful that our DOT would approve such a boat for the charter trade. The Italian equivalent of our DOT is probably even more persnickety. There are tight, tight regulations (at least here in Canada) regarding the skipper's qualifications. Last time I looked, to get the appropriate "ticket" you had to have at least five years of "sea time" under a qualified skipper holding the appropriate license. There are good reasons for that!

I have no desire to be a "wet blanket", but I would consider myself remiss if I didn't offer you some reality-based things to think about. Consider also that there have been books written about how to be a good shipmate. It's not something that comes naturally to most people, and minor irritations become major issues if the budget has no slack in it. And that will be the case if you lumber yourself with a bigger boat than you are ready for.

By my lights, for extended local cruising, even here where the weather is colder and wetter than in the Med, 30 feet is the "sweet spot". Big enough for a man and his maid to live in for several months at a time, and small enough that it doesn't keep you perpetually so broke that forfeiting of the boat is an ever threatening danger.

Just some things to include in your considerations :-)

TrentePieds

I get quoting for everything, obviously, i'm not going to build a windlass by myself, let's be serious..

engine: i have quote from yanmar, ford mermaid, gardner (yes the big strong one), nanni diesel, beta marine, sole diesel, shire, and for every brand a quote from 2 different supplier, including gearbox, to the light duty nanni, to the heavy duty 4,5 liter jcb NA 85 hp with prm 500 gearbox, for 20.000 euro...I can't find a way to spend 85.000 euro on a engine on a sailboat (oh wait, i have a price list, for 100.000 euro you can get a isotta fraschini v 16 1200 hp) Let's be serious please...or at least get informed before talk (i forgot 38.000 euro sole sdz 270 hp 6 cil 7,4 liter including gearbox)

Steel ( fe 430 b, as the A 36 in the USA) is 0,70 euro /kilos, the final number were 28 tons (56.000lbs, with 1.000 galoon of water and about 400 galoon of diesel)

About 7.000 euro anti rust, paint, ecc

Get quote from 3 different sail maker ( about 65 euro/ square meter for mainsail and 45 euro/square meter for jib) x 110 square meter

And so on and so on...it's year that i'm looking around all the boat shop in italy from a 3.500 euro raymarine radar, to the 1600 euro oceanic liferaft, to to the 6 mm square cord, to the mooring balls, eccccccccc i could write a book about it and all the safety feature that i thought, read, developed, sometimes copied...


About licensing, i already contacted all the notification agents for the relase of the safety certificate (then to go to the coast guard, register the boat) 650 euro, they check everything, every single seacock (oh sorry i have a keel cooled boat...and all the other pipe pass outside the hull, over the waterline with a pump to cacht the water)

No professional boating licence needed in italy if charter occasionally (withn 42 days)


I however thank you for your costructive critics

[stefano_ita]

Originally Posted by Nikki S

Stefano, like the others said, Start small with something affordable. Don't blow all your money on your dream boat yet. Enjoy the life aboard, embrace the challenges, and if you discover you love it, those "housey" comforts will seem less important. You may even redefine what your dream boat actually is. €80,000 doesn't sound enough to me to build a safe 7berth motorsailor if you also want, sails, generator, nav gear, Epirbs , life jackets, first aid kit, tool kit, and maybe a washing machine... I would want €800,000 - but as I don't have that much money, we bought the safest strongest yacht within our budget that has enough space and comforts to get by- good Nav gear was important to us, and a second hand boat usually has a lot of gear on board already. Goodluck. I hope you do it!

Yes, in fact i was wrong, the 80.000 was the project for the 33 ft...125k for the 52 ft.

If i don't charter, with what we will live? the only marina (still not had an answer) to live is far away from home, plus pay the marina, never get free for more than a week to get a serious cruise (may only be from venice to croatia, all closed and repaired water)...

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by stefano_ita

If i don't charter, with what we will live? the only marina (still not had an answer) to live is far away from home, plus pay the marina, never get free for more than a week to get a serious cruise (may only be from venice to croatia, all closed and repaired water)...

I asked this before (in your other topic I think ...):

You say you have to charter to afford the boat. But because you need 5 or more berths to charter, your 33' becomes 70'. All you're buying for all that extra money is beds & showers so you can have guests for about a month every year.

If you can't afford a 32' boat with 2 people working full time (I can afford 29' with 1 person working part time) - how are you EVER going to afford maintaining a 50 - 70' boat?!

It just makes no sense - having to buy a boat you can't afford in the hopes of making enough money in one month to last you a year - including all the related boat costs!

Just go with a 32' boat - I have a hard time accepting that you wouldn't be able to afford that with 2 salaries.

[stefano_ita]

Originally Posted by tinkrman69

You won't find an answer here. If your unhappy there is no place in the world of even this universe you can go that will make you happy. Happiness is a decision. You either decide to be happy or you decide not to be happy.

I live on the sea because I like the adventure, the people I meet, the beauty of the unspoiled places I can get to along the coasts of the oceans and water ways. Living in the sea is less complicated to me than living on the hill. There is a great freedom there.

So if your looking to a boat and the sea life to make you happy, you won't find it. No mater how much money you throw at it. Hell the more money you throw in the heavier the mantle around your neck and the harder it will be to see where the happiness is. because that place where the happiness? is inside you, under that mantle.

as far as becoming a charter boat captan/owner. If you don't have good experience and knowledge about seamanship and navigation, you'll be putting a lot of peoples "lives" in your hands. Mother ocean doesn't do "do/overs" That experience and knowledge takes years of work to acquire. you don't start out with a 5 star restaurant and then figure out how to cook. you start with a kitchen and learn to cook and move onto a diner and so forth. I know one man that started with a truck and now has a nice restaurant that has bought him and his family a pretty nice house and yearly vacations abroad. Two element in all that; Time and effort.

As was mentioned earlier, regrets. the only regrets I ever had were not trying to do some thing. and yes I have failed many things and learned something from those failures, hence they were made positive and there was no need for regrets.

if we never did anything because of the fear of failure we'd still be freezing in a cave trying to make more babies to keep us warm.;-) all success was preceded by failure. Thank god for risk takers. without them I wouldn't know what a boat is and that big wet thing out there? certain death, cause even if I could swim all the way out there I'd fall off the edge of the world.

So, lets get real. You want happiness? Look inside!!!!!!!!

I really appreciate your point of view...Well, you know wich is the stupid time for landlubber? Christmas...You get fuc...stressed to buy gif, get planned, for NOTHINGS! at all...Just a wast of time, life and last but not the least, waste of money.

I consider myself a risktaker, a bit out of the society, a critics...For this i don't want to stay INTO this sick society.

I do know many 40-50 years old people that get a loan with the home as garancy , without the wife knew it to buy a old used iveco daily and now have 20 x mercedes actros...For sure the risk taking is what keep you alive and make you fight for life, otherwise, like some people i met (friend of friend) work 12 hours a day, get a small old flat in the worst part of the city for 150.000 euro (plus 200 euro month as flat service) and almost can't afford to go a week in croatia, for a cheap holiday (couple, both working in a big insourance company, they all go to work even with severe flu because they are scared to lose they job and want to show that they are good at work )

My last job, i was asking, after i had done about 10 hours more a week of extraordinary (for free obviously, not being payed), after 2-3 weeks i asked if i could stay at home, one day, 8 hours (the legal time) without take that 8 hours away from my holiday hours account, they answered me no, i must be flexible, if i don't like work for a private society i would have worked for public company and so on. I quit a month later. IF i want to do volunteering i do for what i like, not to make buy the boss a new range rover every 3 year..Or new home, new House, New office...

And obviously if you arrive 3 minutes later, is half an our less of you payment...(happened twice) or asking to do not too muich time having lunch break because lot of work to do (legally 1 hour lounch break, real 15-20 minutes)

Waiting for an italian revolution, like spain or greece...oh no wait, not today i have to work, also tomorrow...maybe the next week...

END OF OT