Support for Voyaging Sailors

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Vino the Dog

Many hard working people who succeeded in making enough money to retire on a boat tend to despise anyone who sold everything they own to have their adventure working their way as best they can.

"Despise"? No. Not in my experience.

Originally Posted by Vino the Dog

There are many reasons why someone ends up poor other than being a lazy, inferior person who turns to begging. Why should such people not have the same right to live life to the fullest as their financially secure peers do?

"the same right"? Non-lazy yet poor people have a RIGHT to a sailing yacht adventure??
Perhaps hard working people who succeeded in making enough money to retire on a boat tend to despise THIS cute idea.
Conversely, few of them would actually despise someone for the act of actually selling all his belongings to sail away, methinks.
There is a serious difference.

Originally Posted by Vino the Dog

I did not start this thread to cause an argument about the rights of the poor versus the financially secure.

Yet you are begging for an argument (or laughter?) when you refer to the "right" to live life to the fullest, implying that such a life includes a yacht adventure. No?

[Pelagic]

To look at this more Globally, we are really talking about Charity.

We all go thru the same painful realization that the World is this horrible hodge podge of sick and healthy, rich and poor, safe and suffering, resulting in two distinctly polar mindsets.

1.The Apathetic, a defensive measure by the "Lucky", to dull the screams of ...
2. The Desperate..... Who do not have the luxury of moral or social Righteousness.... and who will do anything to achieve their needs.

Most of us float in between a central back eddy of these two mindsets, where we label as "ambition", that desperate personal goal or desire, while dulling the needs of others.

Our subconscious dilemmas:

How to prioritize our needs over the needs of others?
How to maximize our gifts?
How to rationalize who is deserving?

We seem to mostly concentrate our Charity towards Tribal, Family and Peer Groups. Perhaps rationalizing that it is easier to determine the most deserving and receive a clearer confirmation of our gift.

But, when you look at the really desperate needs Globally, our moralizations are all a bit pathetic.

[ahun]

Begging, payment or sponsorship?

Ellen McArthur (one example) spent years of begging to start her sailing carrier. Would you despise her efforts retrospectively?

(Not saying anything about Columbus)

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by atoll

i'm green with jealousy,with 25k subscribers,putting out 1or 2 15 minute videos of basic content,together with a patreon base and product placement.
some of them are pulling in $2k a month.

if only i had the skills, some talent,was prepared to edit for 20+ hours a week and looked vaguely presentable.........

given that mainstream TV is absolute crap these days either promoting products you don't need or subliminal social and political propaganda these vloggers are like a breath of fresh air if watched in small doses.
more power to them if they can make it pay.

I’m with you pal, go fund me is hardly anything that I would want to do but like you said, if they can make it work more power to them. They are going to have to make it without me however. I think some folks are jealous of their success.

[texingram1]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

I think the crowd funding thing is begging, but a fool and his money are soon parted.


However, if you are a bona fide long term experienced cruiser, then I see nothing wrong with advertising that in a forum like this for those who want to know what its all about.


If a couple or family of potential cruisers are struggling to get their head around the whole concept, just like we did, it would be money well spent to rent a week on board an experienced cruisers boat where total immersion will give far more information and feel than years of Internet reading. There does not even have to be any sailing....

I think talent should be rewarded. I followed three couples who are working their way to and from somewhere. these particular couples started out naïve and inexperienced. after a couple of years - their work was pretty slick and I lost interest.

they are going where I should have gone - so I reward them and watch them until they get a little too professional.

A thought - my youngest son died unexpectedly at 41 - without insurance. one of his friends opened a 'go fund me' account (I think) it was a great help. we all make decisions, no harm no foul.

Tex

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by ahun

Begging, payment or sponsorship?

Ellen McArthur (one example) spent years of begging to start her sailing carrier. Would you despise her efforts retrospectively?

Very good point, IMHO!

[Vino the Dog]

Originally Posted by cyan

Yet you are begging for an argument (or laughter?) when you refer to the "right" to live life to the fullest, implying that such a life includes a yacht adventure. No?

So it is not my "right" to sell my home and everything I own to buy a near derelict sailboat, spend five years full time work restoring her myself, then single hand her from Columbia River, Washington to Mazatlan, Mexico?

I assure you it is my absolute RIGHT to do and live however I like and can achieve without stealing, lying, or deceiving. It is also my right to beg if I choose to do so, which I do NOT simply as a matter of self-respect. I did not BEG for any argument, merely asked a question about a controversial subjectl with full knowledge there would be many who take a spontaneous negative position about it and others would provide actual information.

[Vino the Dog]

[QUOTE=Pelagic;2654771]To look at this more Globally, we are really talking about Charity.

Totally disagree!
Quite clearly there are many who only see begging and charity as the only motivation-response to all use of crowd funding, but as others have pretty clearly pointed out in this thread, there is another very different motivation-response as well. That is the legitimate attempt (by sailors and others) to create a form of legitimate work using the economic formats provided by internet crowd sourcing.

The positive responses here placed the question in the realms of entertainment, either writing or making videos, both of which are very time consuming work that others value and some appreciate enough to contribute to the effort.

In this respect it appears to me that Patreon and Kickstarter are best suited because they are both organized to provide a platform for exchange of some service for the contributions. To the contrary, sites like GoFundMe are organized so the site owners make the most money by refusing no one to ask, beg, or exchange, however the individual account holder wants.

If the conversation can carry on with more attention to those who create content and their audience who appreciates it rather than the black-and-white view that all such use is either begging or charity, possibly some information of value may emerge. I appreciate the comments by you film makers who added clues how to do better videos as a comment to legitimate use. Too bad I don't know how to make a video!.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

To look at this more Globally, we are really talking about Charity.

We all go thru the same painful realization that the World is this horrible hodge podge of sick and healthy, rich and poor, safe and suffering, resulting in two distinctly polar mindsets.

1.The Apathetic, a defensive measure by the "Lucky", to dull the screams of ...
2. The Desperate..... Who do not have the luxury of moral or social Righteousness.... and who will do anything to achieve their needs.

Most of us float in between a central back eddy of these two mindsets, where we label as "ambition", that desperate personal goal or desire, while dulling the needs of others.

Our subconscious dilemmas:

How to prioritize our needs over the needs of others?
How to maximize our gifts?
How to rationalize who is deserving?

We seem to mostly concentrate our Charity towards Tribal, Family and Peer Groups. Perhaps rationalizing that it is easier to determine the most deserving and receive a clearer confirmation of our gift.

But, when you look at the really desperate needs Globally, our moralizations are all a bit pathetic.

I believe you summed it up in one sentence. "How to rationalize who is deserving?"

[john61ct]

The OP asked for feedback from those who are living aboard,

not from their past savings / investments

but generating income one way or another online.

I would agree with the OP, that we have derailed their request enough with theoretical discussion of the morality of it,

centered around delivering value to contributors,

as opposed to simply asking for money offering little in return.

I would think members' constructive advice along the lines of "how to do it",

will be meager, but let's at least give it space to attract that, let the thread sink or swim

[Pelagic]

[QUOTE=Vino the Dog;2655316]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

To look at this more Globally, we are really talking about Charity.

Totally disagree!
Quite clearly there are many who only see begging and charity as the only motivation-response to all use of crowd funding, but as others have pretty clearly pointed out in this thread, there is another very different motivation-response as well. That is the legitimate attempt (by sailors and others) to create a form of legitimate work using the economic formats provided by internet crowd sourcing.

I think you are getting caught up in semantics and missed my point about the futility of trying to moralise charity/begging/crowd funding etc..., whatever you want to call it?

All of those terms are based on the concept that the Recipient is in some way "deserving" of the largesse of the Giver.

Since that is a personal decision by the "Giver" moralizing that relationship by outsiders is a futile exercise.

The Giver can see themselves either Corporately as a Sponsor (like Kingfisher with Ellen MacArthur) or payment for entertainment (YouTube or busking in a Subway) or simply a financial gesture that makes the Giver feel good about themselves.

What differs now is that Social sites like CF, combined with the efficiency and ease of Paetreon and Crowd funding viralises the opportunity for donations.

This disturbs many who feel that the speed of this hype, often outweighs true need.

That is why I remain ambivalent over this whole discussion.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Vino the Dog

So it is not my "right" to sell my home and everything I own to buy a near derelict sailboat, spend five years full time work restoring her myself, then single hand her from Columbia River, Washington to Mazatlan, Mexico?

I assure you it is my absolute RIGHT to do and live however I like and can achieve without stealing, lying, or deceiving. It is also my right to beg if I choose to do so, which I do NOT simply as a matter of self-respect. I did not BEG for any argument, merely asked a question about a controversial subjectl with full knowledge there would be many who take a spontaneous negative position about it and others would provide actual information.

My point was clearly not so clear.
I actually agree with ALL of that, and I greatly admire such drive.
If you choose to write it or film it, I want to be in the audience- might even pay, as it sounds inspirational.
Oh, and I really don't think you will be "despised" as you say.

However, you did write this:
"Why should such people not have the same right to live life to the fullest as their financially secure peers do?"
Here's where I cringe a little. IMO, you DO have the right to do whatever you choose, to sail whatever boat you can afford, to risk what you wish to risk. From my perspective, though, you do not have the RIGHT to live life to the fullest, if that "fullest" lifestyle dictates a big yacht and a big cruising kitty. That "right" is either earned by hard work or granted by good luck, no?

[john61ct]

A great example of the cruiser, their hard work and passion for their journey, making themselves deserving of support

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/genera.../topics/275569

[SV_GreatStory]

I see some interesting opinions about this and falls into one of two camps : 1. They are beggars and dont deserve anything or 2. I really don't care.

My opinion is a little more moderate. I see that new social media resources of crowd sourcing as a very innovative creative way to raise capital, and I am absolutely in love with small business entrepreneurs and hard working people that have found a way to use these new economic engines to leverage their sailing experiences in a way that gives them freedom and also fulfills their dream of cruising and simultaneously gives others entertainment and access to new experiences (albeit via video) . I am a business owner myself and unrepentant and I know how much work it takes to start a business and create video etc.

My view is that if a person is simply holding their hand out and asking for money when they do posses the means to fund their own repair or their own journey, then that is not compatible with my own personal ethics. I think their time would be better spent working to earn $ for the project rather than spending time to ask for $. But when a person is distinctly providing a service; example is YouTube channels that document their sailing experience, YouTube channels that are DIY how to fix your Diesel engine, then I APPLAUD their creative efforts and encourage them to see how much they can raise. While people will argue that Sailing channels on YouTube are not providing any "services" and I would argue that indeed they are providing entertainment services and entertainment is one of the biggest industries in the world. Better than 99.9% of households in the modern world have TV's or watch YouTube or read the news on Google or watch videos on FB. These sailing channels is just a new way to provide entertainment and also to generate influence. I would venture to bet that almost everyone reading this has at some point come across a boat repair for the first time and then gone to Youtube and looked up the "how to repair" video and found dozens of resources. THAT (imho) is a truly valuable service, and one worth paying for. Also make no mistake - these channels and the creators are exerting great influence and are setting the tone for the sailing image. Many many new sailors are finding their way into purchasing their first boat or getting out on the water for the first time becasue they watched Delos or SLV.

I personally LOVE the idea of crowd-source funding - its up to the individual giving $ to decide if they think the person/organization asking is deserving or not. Or whether that person meets our own standard of ethics for receiving payment for services. Each of us has to choose to pay for Navionics or not, do you think its worth it? Some will say yes and some will say no. The same standard applies to these new creative channels.

[asiapt]

Originally Posted by Vino the Dog

One way sailors are today trying to solve that problem is the emergence of internet based “crowd funding” or “crowd sourcing”. I neither endorse nor dismay about these new forms of economy, but point out that it IS a new form of economy that’s not going away and sailors are using it more every day to find support for their voyages.

I would like to hear from sailors who have used Kickstarter, GoFundMe, Patreon, or any similar crowd funding platform to support your voyage or the maintenance or repair of your boat. What was your experience doing so? Do you continue or would you use this method again?

Hi Steve,

I became friends with a guy who owns a 66ft sailing Ketch "Corsair"and tried crowd funding.

Corsair project outline
This project was a sailing exploration and the adventure journey of a lifetime for a bunch of modern day novice explorers and adventurers aboard Corsair ( a 66ft steel ketch true blue water cruiser yacht ), in the distinct company of all those who share our vision, having the following key targets & main objectives in mind as a crew:

Anyway, he ran the crowd funding for 18 months and got nothing from it at all. I went to meet him and spent the afternoon chatting about his plans but the yacht was needing a lot if work and out of the water in a boatyard in Greece. Now this could be to do with his marketing or it just wasn't appealing enough for people to throw money at. See more on the project here
I personally did not get involved financially because I have since moved to Thailand and would not have been able to get involved as much as I would have wanted. However, he still has the yacht and his plans have changed and he is moving to Greece in the near future with the aim of converting it to a floating hotel.

Below is his last email to me, so if anyone is interested in his latest idea, Feel free to contact me and I will send him your details and interest.

"The most difficult / expensive stage is to transform the yacht a floating Hotel while not sacrificing its sailing capabilities .

This way , once the repairs & refurbishment is complete , we can go anywhere there is a strong demand for tourist accommodation .
It’s true that Greece has suffered due to the migrant crisis , but there are other countries nearby where the yacht can be moored such as Montenegro , Croatia , Spain etc...
In the cold European winter we could go to Canaries , Cape Verde or even Caraibbean .
If I can not afford to finance the refurb I will probably sell the yacht , let’s see how it goes".