Spend before you See...Time for a change?

[grahamb]

.…...I have been to Multi Hull Solutions many, many times...….I have nil financial connection...….their website clearly states...….'out of the water'......that is ….all the boats are sitting in the yard ...on the hard...…......you can.....and I have …..driven directly up any yacht there......walk under them.....or do a circuit....see them all........….lots of brands.....free boat show......so that's fine for a 'look'...… for a test sail the vessel needs to be splashed......then its an hour down the river to the Broadwater or through the Southport Seaway to the ocean....then back again ……..maybe as much as A$500 or so charged for the travel lift...........someone has to pay...….as someone who spent a year as a broker...….taking someone for a test sail only occurred after a holding deposit was paid....taking people out for a sail can be fun...…..every boat can have lots of lookers …...just one buyer......hard to tell the difference sometimes...….very often its the most unlikely...…..maybe I can help......Its relatively just up the road....pm follows...….

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Heath68

I just wanted to see the boat in the flesh, touch it, "see" how big the cockpit was, get dome detailed information about it so i could (probably) go back to the wife still on bed rest and say "get well soon, I've found the boat of our dreams, it IS the one, lets get an offer in before someone else snaps up this boat"

That's not what you said earlier. You said you wanted the owner to take you out on it. In my mind, that is the crux of the misunderstanding.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Hi Paul L thanks for your input.

Thats exactly what i was hoping to do.
If Kelvin had rang/skyped/WhatsAppd/Line rang or messenger called me and said "hey look, you're more than welcome to come down and view the boat but the lack of notice is a bit of a problem to take it out on the water. Tell you what, send me proof of ability to purchase, sort out a flight and travel visa, pop down to Oz its only 10hrs away and take a look. If you really want to take it out maybe we can discuss it when you're here"

I'd probably be on a plane right now rather than sat in Bangkok still.

It sounds like you are still holding onto the idea that you get to test sail boats you are interested in that are for sale. It doesn't work that way. The broker should be responsive to you, I agree. But all you get to do is go down and look at the boat. It takes a sales contract to do a seatrial. Also understand that there is more than a deposit involved. Once you get an agreed contract going you are now on the hook for paying for a survey and associated costs, usually completed before the seatrial.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by Heath68

If Kelvin had rang/skyped/WhatsAppd/Line rang or messenger called me and said "hey look, you're more than welcome to come down and view the boat but the lack of notice is a bit of a problem to take it out on the water. Tell you what, send me proof of ability to purchase, sort out a flight and travel visa, pop down to Oz its only 10hrs away and take a look. If you really want to take it out maybe we can discuss it when you're here"

I'd probably be on a plane right now rather than sat in Bangkok still.

I fail to see why he'd even need to bother calling you about that. With every brokerage boat in the world, you are entitled to "sort out a flight, pop down to xxxx, and take a look". You don't need permission. When you get there, I'm sure most brokers will be pleased to show you around a range of boats.

Then you can talk about other stuff. But if you start with wanting a sea trial, it's obvious to the broker that you don't know how boat buying works and hence he is likely to guess that you're a timewaster. Get a flight, go see some boats. Don't wait to be asked.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

I fail to see why he'd even need to bother calling you about that. With every brokerage boat in the world, you are entitled to "sort out a flight, pop down to xxxx, and take a look". You don't need permission. When you get there, I'm sure most brokers will be pleased to show you around a range of boats.

Then you can talk about other stuff. But if you start with wanting a sea trial, it's obvious to the broker that you don't know how boat buying works and hence he is likely to guess that you're a timewaster. Get a flight, go see some boats. Don't wait to be asked.

Exactly what I did. Flew to Brisbane from PNG and started looking at boats I had identified from internet sails listings. Including contacting Kelvin who showed me over several boats both on the hard and in the water. No mention of contracts or anything else - but then I didn't expect a sea trial without looking at a boat and putting in an offer.

[BugzyCan]

This would be a major red flag to me. The seller doesn't want you to see something on the boat that they always hated when they bought it, and they know as soon as you set foot on it you are going to see it and not buy the boat.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by BugzyCan

This would be a major red flag to me. The seller doesn't want you to see something on the boat that they always hated when they bought it, and they know as soon as you set foot on it you are going to see it and not buy the boat.

Inspecting the boat in person is not at issue here. It is the OPs request to sail the boat before agreeing on a sales contract. The only red flag is the one the OP has waved to the broker.

[Chotu]

Oh wow. Different story. I agree with the rest. There are no seats trials of boats without a purchase and sale agreement and 10% deposit.

Otherwise, you'd have every tire kicker in the world out sailing for free.

The boat buying process is perfect, actually. It protects the buyer and the seller. It's a thing of beauty.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Thanks for your insight, but the broker wanted me to check out a legal contract... Ive never seen such a document in my life and am 15k miles from home ......

Health68, I think you are a victim of circumstances not entirely of your own making.

IMO, it is very very unusual for someone to be buying a million dollar boat as their first boat. Most people who are in the market for such a boat would have bought and sold several boats by the time they are ready for a top shelf vessel. They would know the process (as explained upthread).

The broker would be expecting any potential buyer of this boat to know the buying and selling process and what is considered the norms.

You contact him by email wanting to do it your way which is really at odds of what he is expecting of an earnest buyer. He puts you into the rudder kicker box or worse, the free sail on an top end boat box. He sent you a polite "don't waste my time" type reply and left the ball in your court.

Yes, he could have better and should have been more proactive but that didn't happen.

The upside is, you are better informed now since you have raised this thread.

EDIT: I don't know what would be in a contract for a million dollar boat but in my experience for a $100,000 boat, the buyer would usually have a cause along the lines of "subject to a survey and sea trial to the buyer's satisfaction" etc. You put down a sizeable deposit (10%), pay for a survey. You can walk away and get your deposit back simply by saying you are not satisfied with the survey (or the sea trial if it gets that far). It is black and white, you are either satisfied or you are not.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Wotname

EDIT: I don't know what would be in a contract for a million dollar boat but in my experience for a $100,000 boat, the buyer would usually have a cause along the lines of "subject to a survey and sea trial to the buyer's satisfaction" etc. You put down a sizeable deposit (10%), pay for a survey. You can walk away and get your deposit back simply by saying you are not satisfied with the survey (or the sea trial if it gets that far). It is black and white, you are either satisfied or you are not.

The standard MHS sale contract is a very basic document which doesn't need a legal eagle to interpret. Anyone with a high school education would have no difficulty. Here's a redacted copy of mine:



PURCHASE AGREEMENT


MEMORANDUM OF AGREEMENT made this xxxxxxxxxxxx by and between xxxxxxxx hereinafter called the OWNER of the xxxxxxx called xxxxxx hereinafter called YACHT, located at xxxxxxxxxxand xxxxxxxxhereafter called the PURCHASER.

Definitions:
YACHT: The vessel and its inventory as detailed and attached to this agreement.
OWNER: The owner of the YACHT and its inventory as detailed in this agreement.
PURCHASER: The person making the offer to purchase the YACHT from the OWNER
SELLER: The licensed marine broker, Multihull Solutions.
SETTLEMENT: The date the last amount is due by the PURCHASER to the SELLER under the terms of this Purchase Agreement.


1 The OWNER agrees hereby to sell and the PURCHASER agrees to buy the YACHT for the sum of ______________________ payable as follows: ____________ upon signing this agreement, this amount being 10% of the purchase price, serving as evidence of the good faith of the PURCHASER, and being held in trust pending completion or cancellation of this sale and _____________________ in cleared fundswhen the Bill of Sale is executed and ready for delivery (settlement), which shall in any case be not later than _______________________ unless OWNER and PURCHASER mutually agree other arrangements and in writing/email.

2 The OWNER warrants the YACHT is sold free and clear of any liens, bills, or encumbrances of any nature whatsoever, that he will defend he has good and marketable title thereto and the lawful right to sell the YACHT, and that he will deliver all necessary documents for the transfer of title to the PURCHASER on or before settlement.

3 Any attached inventory is included in this sale and attached hereto. The SELLER offers details of the YACHT in good faith, but he cannot guarantee the accuracy of this information nor warrant the conditions of the YACHT. It is understood and agreed that the PURCHASER may instruct his agents or surveyors to investigate such details as he desires validated.

4 It is agreed the PURCHASER may have the YACHT surveyed at his expense on or before ______________ and if survey is performed:

A- The PURCHASER may refuse to complete this purchase if the OWNER refuses to repair at his expense the essential items of repair as required by the agent or surveyor or the OWNER refuses to adjust the sale price to compensate the PURCHASER for the cost of essential and necessary repairs.

B- The PURCHASER shall notify the SELLER, in writing or by email or Fax within and within xx days after survey is completed, of his decision to buy or renegotiate the essential items of repair as outlined by the agent or survey report. If the SELLER on or before this date does not receive notice, the PURCHASER will be deemed to have accepted the YACHT. If the SELLER on or before this date receives notice from the PURCHASER and negotiations between the OWNER and PURCHASER are not finalised within ten days or by the settlement date, whichever is earlier, this PURCHASER may cancel this Purchase Agreement by giving notice to the SELLER and the SELLER will refund the deposit in full to the PURCHASER and within 3 days.

5 The sale may, at the PURCHASER option be cancelled and the PURCHASER deposit will be returned, less any expenses incurred by the SELLER, if the sale is not completed because (A) the OWNER does not agree to repair or adequately adjust the selling price for survey findings per paragraph 4 (B). The YACHT is materially damaged or destroyed for any reason before settlement.

6 OWNER and PURCHASER recognize Multihull Solutions as the licensed SELLER for this transaction and, as the recipient and holder of the deposit. The commission due to the SELLER shall be calculated on the sale price agreed to herein. Any adjustment of the sale price agreed to by the PURCHASER and OWNER as a result of conditions found during the survey will not affect the commission.

7 If the PURCHASER fails to pay the balance after all the conditions of the contract are met, the deposit shall be retained as liquidated damages.
One-half of the deposit, in the event of same is retained as liquidated damages, shall be paid the Broker and one-half retained by the OWNER except that the half of the deposit retained by the Broker shall not exceed the full amount of commission.

8 Any and all taxes imposed in this purchase, if any, become the responsibility of the PURCHASER.

9 The OWNER agrees to handover the YACHT and inventory to the PURCHASER at on or before the settlement date being ________________________.

10 The OWNER shall accept this offer within xx days of the date of this Purchase Agreement, or the PURCHASER may withdraw his offer to purchase and this Purchase Agreement shall become void.


11 Additional conditions required by the PURCHASER:
· Satisfactory Survey report
· Satisfactory Sea Trials
· Satisfactory Mechanical Inspection


In all good faith, all parties being agreed, this Purchase Agreement has been read and signed by both parties.

[Wotname]

^^ Thanks StuM, that looks very similar to others I have seen so I guess it makes no difference it the boat is $10K or $100K or $1,000K.

The last one I signed was worded slightly different in clause 11 to more clearly reflect the level of satisfaction required was entirely up to the purchaser but in essence they were the same thing.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Wotname

IMO, it is very very unusual for someone to be buying a million dollar boat as their first boat. Most people who are in the market for such a boat would have bought and sold several boats by the time they are ready for a top shelf vessel. They would know the process (as explained upthread).

I'm guessing you haven't been to many boat shows Just wander around and you'll see absolute virgins signing up for their first million dollar boats all over the place... a dream and some newly made cash is a powerful thing.

Matt

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

I'm guessing you haven't been to many boat shows Just wander around and you'll see absolute virgins signing up for their first million dollar boats all over the place... a dream and some newly made cash is a powerful thing.

Matt

You must be guessing right!
We truly do live in different worlds

Maybe the OP should be attending boat shows - good tip

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by StuM

.....


11 Additional conditions required by the PURCHASER:
· Satisfactory Survey report
· Satisfactory Sea Trials
· Satisfactory Mechanical Inspection


....

These agreements rely on a willing buyer and a willing seller. The buyer can back out for no specific reason when they do the seatrial. Something as non-distinct as I don't like the way she sails, or I don't like the feel of the helm.

[grahamb]

.…...I like the clause 11 additions by.... Stum… I always added the words...…
Satisfactory …..'to me'....to each clause......makes it even clearer....