Spend before you See...Time for a change?

[Helia 44]

I personally know Kelvin, and have bought two major cats from Multihull Solutions...

Kelvin is GREAT to work with. But Original Poster Heath, get real, there are so many tyre kickers out there. This is a million dollar boat, you don't just get an Owner to take everyone that flies in to go out for a non-committed ride or you would be broke and out of Business.

Multihull Solutions is the best Broker I have worked with in 45 years, I bought a Helia 44 and now own a Saba 50, another million dollar + yacht. I would not take just anyone out for sea trial that did not even have the commitment to put down an offer and deposit. I would be giving tyre kickers free rides all the time. You, Heath, are totally out of line IMO...

And Kelvin? GREAT BROKER, GREAT GUY, but Company Policy is what it is, and myself as an Owner would not take you out for a joy ride until you had seen the boat and we were on the same page with an offer. Sea Trial is a contingency of the sale. Approval of Sea Trial is a contingency of the sale. You just don't take anyone out, when they are not even serious enough to make an acceptable offer. Heath you are out of line and unreasonable, and in 45 years and many MAJOR yachts, Kelvin has been the best I have ever worked with...

You should just buzz off with your attitude, I would not take you out either, until I knew we were in the same ballpark on price and your offer was reasonable...

Good Luck

[Jim Cate]

FWIW: W hen I was trying to sell my Yankee 30 many years ago I stipulated that I'd show the boat to anyone who called and made an appointment to see her. If they liked what they saw, I'd take them sailing on a sea trial, but only if they would post a NON REFUNDABLE deposit, approximately equal to a typical half-day charter (100 bucks, back in 1983 when that was a significant sum to most folks). If they bought the boat, that money was applied to the purchase, if they didn't, I kept it and they moved on.

I wonder what might happen if the OP was to make a similar offer to the owner ?

Likely too late to work in his time limited situation...

Jim

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Fransw

Many scumbags out there! I'll tell him to bugger of! He is only trying to put pressure on you.

2 or 3 nice Knysna 500's in South Africa for sale..(I'm not a dealer, but saw the ads)

Thanks for the info... i tend to rely on yachtworld, can you suggest other places to look?

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by WTRacer

I'll give my perspective as someone who isn't a broker but was in a public facing advisory/sales type environment.


Personally I think most of your difficulty is self inflicted, please don't take that too harshly, I hope what follows may help. Of course it may also be that the guy concerned is less than helpful, but you already have a reply to suggest that is not that case.


I see brokers come in for a heap of criticism, often justifiably, but this nothing really to do with boat brokers, it's about people.


Ruso has some points about negotiating positions that are worth noting, but your issue comes earlier in the process.


Here's my take:


You are very interested in buying a £500k+ object and you send an email....why? Though there are buying signals throughout your contact method I would strongly suspect that the guy involved has seen hundreds of these before and they mostly amount to nothing. In fact my first read through of your contact made me feel like uh oh, this guy could be trouble-this despite your email was perfectly reasonable. The simple fact is that emailers are usually both a waste of time and/or trouble. I've seen this so many times it just gets to the point where the overall position is that even if 1 of 100 (and lets say you are the 1) is a positive outcome, it's barely worth the hassle.


There is a minimal time difference iirc, pick up the phone! talk to the guy!


This is especially important where you want something from him that is non standard; a test sail without commitment to buy. I fully understand your position but it's not how used boat buying is normally done. You may argue to norm is "wrong" however that does not change you currently want something outside of the current norm, and you couldn't be bothered to pick up the phone....I sincerely don't mean that make you feel bad, I'm just giving you some food for thought as to how a person on the other side of the equation might feel.


To further weaken your presentation you sent a total of 7 or 8 emails, this has the potential to mark you as annoying and perhaps trouble.


Email, this forum, text messages, so much of social media.....how often do you see misunderstandings due to contextual issues, misunderstandings are rife even between perfectly reasonable people simply because these mediums whilst very useful are horribly impersonal for the most part.


You should have picked up the phone imo, and the part I find most baffling is why you wouldn't do so when seriously wanting to part with half a million.


To finish off I'll give you a somewhat silly analagy, using a house since you mentioned properties.


Imagine you're an estate agent and you get an email from someone asking "Hi I'm really interested in the house you have for sale on x street, I'm in the area and wondering if I can spend that night there to see if I like it" What might your reaction to that be? Ofc I don't expect a reply to this sillyness. I also fully expect some criticism that this is bad analagy


To finish off and tie back to Ruso's comments, take a pause from your desire and excitement (and frustration) of boat shopping and try to see it from the other persons view point. You are dealing with people, with all their faults and naunces. Make it as easy as possible for the other party by considering what they might want for a smooth and easy transaction, doing so can then bring other rewards. A friendly customer is more likely to achieve a happier outcome for all concerned (perhaps even including a better price or acceptance of non standard requests like a no obligation test sail from an owner) I've no reason to doubt you are a friendly customer, but how would the broker know, all they got was a bunch of anonymous emails asking for unusual stuff within the confines of the time you have and said broker may have had 367 other emails the same week all of which were a bit crappy too.


This rambling nonsense isn't meant to belittle you or defend a broker, it's simply my take on managing your expectations and something to think about when building a short term relationship.



Mini rant over

Hiya, thanks for the constructive criticism.
On the phone issue, i realised that after I had sent the first email. The second was to send him my contact details so we could talk. I do not have a mobile phone of my own (it is a works one) and didn't want to have to explain why I used it to make an international mobile to mobile call about a personal issue that wasn't critical (it would no doubt cost £££s). So instead I gave him my mobile number, my WhatApp details, my Skype address, my Facebook Messenger details and said he could reach me on Line App. I emailed him this, talked to an Australian friend to establish which of the two numbers I had for him was a mobile number and I messaged him those details also... I was trying to get in touch.

I'm not sure I see your point about about staying overnight in a house... its more like saying can you drive your motorhome round the block so i can hear the engine run and see the wheels don't fall off. In house terms I suppose its like can i look round the house and can you show me the central heating works.

.. that said you obviously have some good points because he clearly couldn't be bothered with me as I was too much hassle (but isn't that what he gets paid for? To do the deal)?

Fair Winds

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Let's boil this down. The potential buyer doesn't want to put down an earnest money deposit along with a sales agreement, and wants the owner to take him sailing. Somehow that is evidence of broken system and a crooked broker? No disrespect intended to the buyer - he sounds like a nice guy with good intentions who has planned well, but his original post took offense at him being asked to make an offer sight-unseen, which isn't the truth - he was being asked to make an offer prior to a sea-trial, which is perfectly reasonable. A story-line in lieu of a refundable earnest money deposit may be a reasonable request, but not a reasonable demand.

I hope the OP sets this aside and travels to look at the boat - if the boat is right, it will all work out (I have zero connection to anyone in this thread, but the fact that a few posts have indicated good experience with both the broker and the brokerage is a very good sign). Would be a shame to let a few hundred bucks derail a dream.

Thanks for your insight, but the broker wanted me to check out a legal contract... Ive never seen such a document in my life and am 15k miles from home snd have no access to legal advice (I know one thing from peesonal experience.. you need to fully understand a contract before signing) so is gour advice to wing it and sign it anyway?
I was also asked to "put in an offer", based on what? Some memories of photos from March and what's written in Yachtworld?

I just wanted to see the boat in the flesh, touch it, "see" how big the cockpit was, get dome detailed information about it so i could (probably) go back to the wife still on bed rest and say "get well soon, I've found the boat of our dreams, it IS the one, lets get an offer in before someone else snaps up this boat"
If I had the benefit of hindsight I'd have done this before setting off for Thailand, but we booked it and flew only 4 days later so our trip was last minute too.

[Paul L]

Why don't you fly down and inspect the boat and see if you think it is for you? No contract needed for this. Drop the issue of trying to get a day sail on it till after you've decided that you want to make an offer. This is how the majority of boats are sold. The day sail is called a seatrial and specifically called out in the sales agreement.

Just don't be too surprised if the boat you look at isn't in the beautiful shape portrayed on Yachtworld. Many aren't.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Agreed and agreed. Buyer wasn't weeded-out because he was an email tire (tyre?) kicker, he was weeded-out because he wanted the broker, owner, and presumably the insurance company to provide a test sail without benefit of an earnest money deposit.

Why not say "I'm traveling a great distance at great expense with a limited time there. Assuming I place an offer by the end of Day 2, would the owner be available to consider the offer ASAP and the boat be available for sea trial on Day 3?" I know a few will say "Jeesh, might as well just open your checkbook to be fleeced by a crooked broker." Fair comment, but I have done pretty well with a friendly, respectful approach. When we bought our current boat 20-years ago, first words I uttered when we went aboard - probably within earshot of the broker - were "This boat is sold. Only question is the selling price." We loved the boat, and I can't even remember exactly what we paid for it, probably a few bucks more than we needed. That's not the part I remember when I step aboard.

I think I see the problem now. Sorry I am naive, and this was probably where I went wrong, this is our first boat purchase.

I didn't realise he needed go get insurance etc to sail around in his boat with me on board probably asking questions about it (like does it hove to easily). I wasn't expecting to sail it myself, I'd have been happy to sit and observe or help with the lines. I thought a "test sail" was where i get a surveyor to "test" the boat to make sure it still does exactly what it was designed to do when it was built 5yrs ago.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

I agree that splitting cost or any financial effort from the customers side is absolutely ok in my eyes. I dont see the problem in paying 500 bucks or so for testsailing a 50ft boat for a half day / day. in case of contract these 500 can be deducted.


I run a production business and customers very often ask for quality production samples, as if it would cost nothing. often we charge up to 500€ for samples... it is deducted from the invoice in case of order.

Of course if it was going to cost the owner to do this I'd have compensated him but that was never even mentioned.

[Tillsbury]

How is wanting an hour or two sailing on the boat not a test sail? That should be the very last thing you do, after the haulout and survey. This sounds like you want to know if it’s the type of boat you like, which is why the broker correctly suspects his time will be wasted.

Deposits make things happen — put one down.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Wotname

You want to go sailing for free for an hour or two on a very expensive boat and you are only offering your unconfirmed story about your life situation as evidence of your serious intention to buy - really! Sorry to be blunt but there are a thousands of scammers sending emails every day. Of course you might not be one of them!

Any decent broker will expect to some money on the table before giving you a half a day out on the water - the money is the only suitable evidence of your serious intention to buy.

However, there is a simple solution - ask the broker (email or phone) for an appointment to see the boat and then turn up and have a look at it. The back story is of no importance to the broker or vendor. After a dockside viewing, you can take it further or not as you see fit. You might even find the broker is a nice guy once you meet him!

Really? So you know a load of "boat scammers" who are willing to spend £1000 or so and travel 10hrs on a plane to get a "free" ride... and these scammers have £500,000 in a bank account do they?

With respect I dont think you do.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Really? So you know a load of "boat scammers" who are willing to spend £1000 or so and travel 10hrs on a plane to get a "free" ride... and these scammers have £500,000 in a bank account do they?

With respect I dont think you do.

The point is whether the broker believes your story. For the record, I do believe you mainly because you have taken the time and effort to post about it on CF.

Look at the other possibilities - like someone down the road emails the broker and says he is flying into Australia to look at a expensive boat, would like to have a sail on it for a couple of hours and then maybe talk some dollars and then go home and talk to the wife before committing anything. Not hard to fabricate a document looking like a bank account showing $1,000,000 in it. Crikey, if that worked, I might try iy myself when I feel like a sail .

In sales circles "got go and talk to wife" is often code for "you won't see me again". In you case it is probably true and not code but that is not always the case and is a red flag.

Good brokers (and there are a few) are busy people dealing with the other earnest buyers. A phone call by you could have made all the difference in the trust stakes.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Really? So you know a load of "boat scammers" who are willing to spend £1000 or so and travel 10hrs on a plane to get a "free" ride... and these scammers have £500,000 in a bank account do they?

With respect I dont think you do.

The owner is trying to sell his boat , not run a background investigative service. At the level of boat you are looking at, you aren't going to get random test sails by owners before contracting the boat. After you buy the boat and cruise it for a few years, you can offer free test sails as an inducement when you are trying to sell it.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Helia 44

I personally know Kelvin, and have bought two major cats from Multihull Solutions...

Kelvin is GREAT to work with. But Original Poster Heath, get real, there are so many tyre kickers out there. This is a million dollar boat, you don't just get an Owner to take everyone that flies in to go out for a non-committed ride or you would be broke and out of Business.

Multihull Solutions is the best Broker I have worked with in 45 years, I bought a Helia 44 and now own a Saba 50, another million dollar + yacht. I would not take just anyone out for sea trial that did not even have the commitment to put down an offer and deposit. I would be giving tyre kickers free rides all the time. You, Heath, are totally out of line IMO...

And Kelvin? GREAT BROKER, GREAT GUY, but Company Policy is what it is, and myself as an Owner would not take you out for a joy ride until you had seen the boat and we were on the same page with an offer. Sea Trial is a contingency of the sale. Approval of Sea Trial is a contingency of the sale. You just don't take anyone out, when they are not even serious enough to make an acceptable offer. Heath you are out of line and unreasonable, and in 45 years and many MAJOR yachts, Kelvin has been the best I have ever worked with...

You should just buzz off with your attitude, I would not take you out either, until I knew we were in the same ballpark on price and your offer was reasonable...

Good Luck

Well with respect I'd probably not buy off you either. The slightly elitist language suggests you take great pride in looking down on people. I explained the unique circumstances i was in. I was willing to prove i had the cash to pay in full if i wanted.

My question to you is how would a guy who owns a million dollar boat "go broke and out of business" by walking someone round his boat and taking someone out of his back yard (yes its in his own mooring at his house) sail it round for an hour to explain what he liked about his boat and park up?

I would have of course covered any fuel cost... but I've known people do that for people they just met at the bar!

Due to my circumstances I only had a limited amount of time and Kelvin was given many ways he could have got in touch if he'd have felt happier talking. I almost pleaded with him that he do so. Sorry but in my judgement your "hero" broker who would be getting £35000 fkr his troubles didn't help me at all.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

FWIW: W hen I was trying to sell my Yankee 30 many years ago I stipulated that I'd show the boat to anyone who called and made an appointment to see her. If they liked what they saw, I'd take them sailing on a sea trial, but only if they would post a NON REFUNDABLE deposit, approximately equal to a typical half-day charter (100 bucks, back in 1983 when that was a significant sum to most folks). If they bought the boat, that money was applied to the purchase, if they didn't, I kept it and they moved on.

I wonder what might happen if the OP was to make a similar offer to the owner ?

Likely too late to work in his time limited situation...

Jim

Thanks Jim

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Why don't you fly down and inspect the boat and see if you think it is for you? No contract needed for this. Drop the issue of trying to get a day sail on it till after you've decided that you want to make an offer. This is how the majority of boats are sold. The day sail is called a seatrial and specifically called out in the sales agreement.

Just don't be too surprised if the boat you look at isn't in the beautiful shape portrayed on Yachtworld. Many aren't.

Hi Paul L thanks for your input.

Thats exactly what i was hoping to do.
If Kelvin had rang/skyped/WhatsAppd/Line rang or messenger called me and said "hey look, you're more than welcome to come down and view the boat but the lack of notice is a bit of a problem to take it out on the water. Tell you what, send me proof of ability to purchase, sort out a flight and travel visa, pop down to Oz its only 10hrs away and take a look. If you really want to take it out maybe we can discuss it when you're here"

I'd probably be on a plane right now rather than sat in Bangkok still.