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Old 16-10-2019, 08:16   #106
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

Three felonies a day???

Surely no one, save the victims of pernicious cultural diffusion, would believe assertions made by such acolytes of St.Ludwig as Harvey Silverglate?

Silverglate is on to a damn good screw given the generally parlous state of edymication! Thar's gold in them thar libertarian hills :-)!

Now let's all join in singing "Avanti Populo" :-)!

After that, maybe we can all go back to discussion sailing and cruising

TP
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Old 16-10-2019, 10:12   #107
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

Don't get hung up on the 3 per day number.

The main point is that most Americans break laws. Many do so on a daily basis with no idea that they are even breaking laws.

Unequal enforcement of the law is the real problem. If the laws were enforced equally, the laws would be changed post haste.

A popular thing I see among cruisers that could get you in serious trouble if the authorities bothered to apply equal enforcement would be the movie and music sharing.

Example, you are poor, have no high speed internet. You walk into a store and walk out with CDs or DVDs. Get arrested, can't afford bail, sit in jail waiting on your constitutionally guaranteed speedy trial that might take weeks or months. You can't afford a quality attorney so you get one who wants to plead your case. After all, 95+% of cases are plead out in the USA, no trial. You end up in jail for months or years, sometimes for the rest of your life if a 'third strike'.

Or imagine you can afford a high speed internet connection and you decide to download and steal tens of thousands of albums and movies. Police never get involved, at worst, and super unlikely, you get a civil suit from the movie and/or music industry.

Another, software piracy. How many people do you know that have illegal versions of Microsoft products, or Adobe, etc.

Where I live, Ohio USA, it only takes something of a few hundred dollars to be a felony.

It's not a stretch to think that we have so many laws that the 'system' can come bearing down on you hard if you don't play nice. Make the wrong people angry and your life can be ruined.

But of course, some think that these things only happen to bad people. Just follow the rules and nothing bad will happen or so we tell ourselves.

Tell that to the hundreds of people framed by the LA police by planting drugs on them or in their cars. This is just one of many examples.
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Old 16-10-2019, 10:35   #108
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

“Most of the American public , reps and dems are law abiding, good, people,...“ .
...judging by whom they voted into thr White House...(...“grab them by the p...y...“)
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Old 16-10-2019, 10:46   #109
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Three felonies a day???

Surely no one, save the victims of pernicious cultural diffusion, would believe assertions made by such acolytes of St.Ludwig as Harvey Silverglate?

Silverglate is on to a damn good screw given the generally parlous state of edymication! Thar's gold in them thar libertarian hills :-)!

Now let's all join in singing "Avanti Populo" :-)!

After that, maybe we can all go back to discussion sailing and cruising

TP



Read the book first before you make fun. I assure you it's worthwhile.


"Three felonies" is just a somewhat sloppily and sensationally formulated headline; but if you substitute "federal crime" for "felony" you are not far from the mark.



Did you read the civil asset forfeiture threads?
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Old 16-10-2019, 12:05   #110
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

Injuries with guests on board....

Fortunately in all of the years, that has been one time for me. And that was Erica during a bareboat in the BVI. A dink slewed away from the swim step on a Jeanneau 36 i, and she bruised some ribs. She just hung in there, no sniveling or crying or complaining and the sailing vacation continued .

Somewhat in accordance with this charging guests....Erica as skipper back in newport with the sailing club.

Erica is a very excellent sailor, and M.D., she had some kind of a drawing at her clinic. She , at the time was a supervising M.D, for three different L.A County Health Dept Clinics.

there was three people who won a day sail that she sponsored, and Erica used one of the Sailing Clubs, Newport 27's. She actually owned a Crealock 37 on lease back with the Sailing Club.

It was a late saturday afternoon, and she and her passengers, had returned to the docks and were sitting on board doing some slip sailing.

One very heavy lady was in the cockpit, and one land lubber guy was sitting up on the coach roof next to the cockpit. I was walking along the docks after my lessons for the
day.

This guy reaches down and released a line that he was sitting on. It was uncomfortable. You salts out there know which line that was, right ? ?.

Yep, the topping lift. The heavy boom fell and hit the lady in the head. That resulted in a large law suit and the sailing club's insurance handled the settlement.

But, Erica had not charged anyone, anything thing. She donated her time and the cost of the vessel. She was just trying to help out what ever cause it was.

That whole thing could have turned out quite differently if she had charged them money for a day sail, fuel, food and drinks, etc . The cost of the rental boat came out of her pocket , no fees of any kind were collected from the passengers .

For fun day sails, I never charged anyone .... not due to law suits, they were my guests, and brought their own snacks and drinks, and I would also provide extra

I also paid for the cost of the sailing club vessel and did not ask for money from
my friends.

Sailing club members were different. We would share the cost of the vessel and the Club took it our of their sailing credits that they had amassed. same for of shore catalina island three day good times.

Life was just kept easy and simple.
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Old 16-10-2019, 15:39   #111
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

I think a couple of posters touched on this but how does one see the "crew wanted" or "available to crew" threads with a request for cost-sharing?

Even if you are not making money the fact that an available crew helps in sharing costs on a passage - can't that be viewed as a payment?
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Old 16-10-2019, 17:08   #112
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

As stated varies by jurisdiction.

But, if the owner is making a given trip, independently of who comes aboard,

and the crew is expected to work, and put up with the pre-existing conditions,

not treated as customers

Those factors certainly count toward "not a charter"

separately from the issues of how much is paid for which sort of consumables.

If it walks like a duck. . .
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Old 16-10-2019, 18:42   #113
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

I hear you John, but it's such a thin line and can be interpreted in different ways by different folks.

Over the years I have made numerous friends on docks and marinas and have taken them out sailing without any mention or expectation of payment, I am just trying to have a good time. Many times, they bring soda/beer/wine to show their appreciation which I hesitantly accept and if time allows we all share it. Almost all of them still remain friends and infrequently come out sailing with me, couple of them have even got into sailing themselves. I know it will be a stretch to call these drinks "payments" but then again, how much is too much?
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Old 17-10-2019, 07:54   #114
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

Quote:
Originally Posted by navdi View Post
I know it will be a stretch to call these drinks "payments" but then again, how much is too much?
More than a stretch. I don't think you have anything at all to worry about.


If you require payment from them, as a condition of coming with you, or ask them to pay for more than their percentage of the actual costs, then you're getting into the area where the Coast Guard is very likely to say that you require a license to operate your charter.


As you mentioned, it's a thin line. Some things go way over the line, others tread very near it. Interpretation of the laws and regulations is what courts do, and if there has not been a precedent for the specific question you might be thinking of, then there is no definitive answer.
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Old 18-10-2019, 00:18   #115
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

Quote:
Originally Posted by navdi View Post
I think a couple of posters touched on this but how does one see the "crew wanted" or "available to crew" threads with a request for cost-sharing?

Even if you are not making money the fact that an available crew helps in sharing costs on a passage - can't that be viewed as a payment?

Just look at crewseekers or the other similar sites. If an owner is expecting crew to share expenses, it says that. "Shared expenses" is one category of sailing opportunity.


As we've discussed, sharing direct expenses -- generally food fuel and berthing -- is not considered chartering in most places. The fact of a "payment" is not the key thing, it's whether the intent is commercial or not.
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Old 22-11-2019, 09:53   #116
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

So coming back to the topic...
To charge passengers for a ride on your boat:
In the USA at minimum you need a US registered boat, insurance for commercial, and a 6-pack captains license.?
To do the same anywhere else in the world - the minimum is all over the place? or are there common requirements ie EU requires ABC, Asia requires XYZ, etc etc ?
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:00   #117
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Re: Sailing With paying guests?

Quote:
Originally Posted by navdi View Post
Even if you are not making money the fact that an available crew helps in sharing costs on a passage - can't that be viewed as a payment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by navdi View Post
.... but it's such a thin line and can be interpreted in different ways by different folks.

...... I know it will be a stretch to call these drinks "payments" but then again, how much is too much?
As others mentioned, it will vary from country to country. Since it looks like you're in Long Island (USA), I'll use the USCG as reference.

https://homeport.uscg.mil/Lists/Cont...Brochure_2.pdf

Passenger for Hire:
means a passenger for whom
consideration is contributed as a condition of
carriage on the vessel
, whether directly or
indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer,
operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.

Consideration:
means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit, including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity but not
including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses
of the voyage by monetary contribution or donation
of food, fuel, beverage, or other supplies.
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