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Old 12-03-2017, 17:58   #1
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New-bees

So, my family and I are in the process of buying a new sailboat, I'm curious to know, with the knowledge that it offered in this forum, (I've been lurking for a while) is a Endeavour 43 a good boat for a family that has never owned a boat before?

Obviously, as with any boat, upgrades and improvements are involved, but the boat itself (for a family of 5), is it a good first boat?

We've owned small fishing boats, but a live aboard, for a family, this is a first.

What does the collective think?
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Old 12-03-2017, 18:05   #2
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Re: New-bees

Have you asked your family what they think?

Have you and the family ever spent more then a week in a confined space that small?

Is there enough room for the wife's clothes and shoes, not to mention the kids (girls?).

And why a sailboat? How much sailing experience do you have. Safety of the crew/family is your highest priority!
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Old 12-03-2017, 18:20   #3
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Re: New-bees

My sailboat experience is minimal, I took ASA courses. As far as living in confined spaces, we've lived in a 42' fifth wheel for the last year, so I don't believe that's the issue, I'm more worried about the boat itself. We've made a verbal agreement with the owner, but nothing is signed yet, and I'm just curious as to what the collective thinks about the boat that we're interested in.
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Old 12-03-2017, 18:28   #4
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Re: New-bees

It's a little late to ask what the collective will say. You're buying the boat already. And we'd never all agree anyway about what boat would be best for your family--we don't know you from a bar of soap! You haven't told us very much about yourself or your family, so the input you receive will be very general because we have nothing to base the specifics on.

You might consider adding your general location to your avatar, and a pic of yourselves or your boat for an avatar.

However, my opinion here, which is worth what your're paying for it, is that it is a large boat for a family to learn about sailing and the ocean on. It is large for maintenance and berthing, as well. Whether it is spacious enough for your own particular family, time will tell. One of our members grew up on a 26 footer, so it obviously can be done. It is a question of your family's collective will as to whether it will work.

It CAN work out well, but if you're planning on working from the boat, making long passages, it can be quite difficult for couples with children. A childless couple just makes up a watch schedule and follows it. With children, it depends on their level of independence how well it will work. Home schooling (if that's the route you choose) takes discipline and time, time that someone must tend the boat, either watch keeping or maintenance may be involved. How it all fits with work duties, well that requires energy and organizational skills. In some families someone has trouble with sea sickness, there are many possible stumbling blocks.

My husband, Jim, has a saying he uses a lot when I come up with an idea. He says, "What can possibly go wrong?" You guys could do worse than ask yourselves that question, and answer it and plan for the *it* of the moment.

We all started somewhere, sometime.....remember that, and deal with the challenges you face as they rear their heads.

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Old 12-03-2017, 18:35   #5
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Re: New-bees

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith98132 View Post
So, my family and I are in the process of buying a new sailboat, I'm curious to know, with the knowledge that it offered in this forum, (I've been lurking for a while) is a Endeavour 43 a good boat for a family that has never owned a boat before?

Obviously, as with any boat, upgrades and improvements are involved, but the boat itself (for a family of 5), is it a good first boat?

We've owned small fishing boats, but a live aboard, for a family, this is a first.

What does the collective think?
Howdy.

I have not owned an Endeavour 43. So take my comments below with a splash of salt water.

But, it was one of the boats I looked at seriously, researched (prior to the internet), and strongly considered and liked when I was looking for a liveaboard boat in SF Bay back in 1987. It was not so old then. They are much older now.

I was particularly impressed by the comfortable aft cabin, and the roomy salon and nice teak wood interior. It is like a small cabin, with a nice galley, and if you add a wood or diesel stove (fireplace) or lanterns, I imagine it would be nice and cozy in a winter liveaboard situation.

But, there are a few things to consider.
You have five people in the family. The E43 Center Cockpit has berths for 6 if you include two in the double in the forward cabin, and two in the double berth aft cabin and one (or two) in the salon. But, will your family be OK living like that?

IF I had a wife and three kids (young or teens) I would look for a boat with THREE cabins and some twin berths (not doubles) and would not want my child to have to sleep on the dinette in the salon. There are some boats like that out there.

NOTE: The E43CC I was on had two "swivel bucket chairs" in the salon, which I did NOT like. I would prefer a long settee (for sleeping).

The thing about a Center Cockpit boat is that it usually means a steep high ladder has to be scaled (up and down) each time you want to enter or leave the boat. Will your children (or you ) like that?

The boat has a lot of headroom in the salon (6'7") so it seems spacious in there.
The boat has an upright refrigerator (like the ones on an RV). That is OK in the marina, but not really suitable to use while on a passage.
The aft cabin is the "selling feature" I think for couples.
The boat has a lot of opening portlights and hatches. So, good for ventilation.

You may or may not be doing a lot of sailing or going long distances. People buy boats for different purposes, and if you are looking for a liveaboard boat. I did not intend to do much when I thought of that boat, as I wanted more of a "condo in the marina" for a few years. But, I remember sitting at the wheel and thinking "This boat sure has a lot of freeboard and that helm position seems very high up above the water." You may not care about that, but it did turn me off from the boat after I got on other boats.

I don't mind a center cockpit boat, but I remember thinking it was high. In the end, I passed on that boat, as it seemed too much like a big floating "RV" to me. IF I were planning to go around the world, it would not be my first choice of a boat. IF I were just planning on living in a marina with a spouse and maybe one child, it would be a nice roomy "apartment on the water."

Sailing?
I have sailed 2,500 ocean passage miles on a Endeavour 37 (aft cockpit) that was about the same age (1980 model). And I have recommended the E37 to others who were looking for a liveaboard boat for a couple and wanted to spend less than $30K. The boat was very similar in interior finish and also in hull and cockpit (wood used for trim). I felt safe in the boat, with no complaints. I would feel comfortable cruising along coasts, Florida, Bahamas, or Caribbean in the E37 or E43CC.

The E43CC is a relatively heavy boat compared to more modern boats.

I will post a few photos to show some of the things I mentioned, such as the double berth forward, the salon, and the freeboard (height above water) and the hull.

How much?
I did a quick search to see how much they are listing for now. I found one E43CC (1983) on Yachtworld with an asking price of $97K. That surprised me, as I expected to see a price of about $40K. In my personal opinion, $97K is too high of a price. For that same amount I think I would choose another, different boat. IF that is your budget, I think you will have many more possible boats out there.

Here is a little data on the Endeavour 43 Center Cockpit:

LOA: 43′ 0″
LWL: 35′ 0″
Beam: 14′ 0″
Draft: 5′ 6″
Displacement: 33,000 lbs.
Ballast: 12,000 lbs.
Sail Area: 900 sq.ft.

Headroom: 6′ 7″
Water: 200 US Gal.
Fuel: 175 US Gal
Engine: Perkins 4-154 Diesel

Designer: Robert Johnson
Builder: Endeavour Yacht Corp. (USA)
Year Introduced: 1978
Year Ended: 1984

You can find some more comments and background on the boat at Bluewaterboats.org. The Endeavour 43 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org

Good luck on your decision. I hope this helps.
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Old 12-03-2017, 19:48   #6
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Re: New-bees

Another thing to consider is the boat insurable and where will you keep it? Will the marina allow live aboards?

Where are the schools, if not home schooling? Living aboard is easy for 1 person. More difficult for 2 people. And a lot more for a family. A 42' RV is a lot bigger inside then the inside of a sailboat.
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Old 13-03-2017, 03:42   #7
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Re: New-bees

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, smith.
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Old 13-03-2017, 05:13   #8
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Re: New-bees

Don't do anything without a good, thorough survey. that will I believe open your eyes
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Old 13-03-2017, 05:39   #9
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Re: New-bees

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith98132 View Post
What does the collective think?
Boats are expensive to begin with but there is nothing more expensive regardless of cost than something you bought that you don't like. I suggest you give this a try first -


Live Aboard Simulator

by L. Butler


Just for fun, park your cars in the lot of the convenience store at least 2 blocks from your house. (Make believe the sidewalk is a floating dock between your car and the house.

Move yourself and your family (if applicable) into 2 bedrooms and 1 bathroom. Measure the DECK space INSIDE your boat. Make sure the occupied house has no more space, or closet space, or drawer space.

Boats don't have room for beds, as such. Fold your Sealy Posturepedic up against a wall, it won't fit on a boat. Go to a hobby fabric store and buy a foam pad 5' 10" long and 4' wide AND NO MORE THAN 3" THICK. Cut it into a triangle so the little end is only 12" wide. This simulates the foam pad in the V-berth up in the pointy bow of the sailboat. Bring in the kitchen table from the kitchen you're not allowed to use. Put the pad UNDER the table, on the floor, so you can simulate the 3' of headroom over the pad.

Block off both long sides of the pad, and the pointy end so you have to climb aboard the V-berth from the wide end where your pillows will be. The hull blocks off the sides of a V-berth and you have to climb up over the end of it through a narrow opening (hatch to main cabin) on a boat. You'll climb over your mate's head to go to the potty in the night. No fun for either party. Test her mettle and resolve by getting up this way right after you go to bed at night. There are lots of things to do on a boat and you'll forget at least one of them, thinking about it lying in bed, like "Did I remember to tie off the dingy better?" or "Is that spring line (at the dock) or anchor line (anchored out) as tight as it should be?" Boaters who don't worry about things like this lying in bed are soon aground or on fire or the laughing stock of an anchorage. You need to find out how much climbing over her she will tolerate BEFORE you're stuck with a big boat and big marina bills and she refuses to sleep aboard it any more....

Bring a coleman stove into the bathroom and set it next to the bathroom sink. Your boat's sink is smaller, but we'll let you use the bathroom sink, anyway. Do all your cooking in the bathroom, WITHOUT using the bathroom power vent. If you have a boat vent, it'll be a useless 12v one that doesn't draw near the air your bathroom power vent draws to take away cooking odors. Leave the hall door open to simulate the open hatch. Take all the screens off your 2 bedroom windows. Leave the windows open to let in the bugs that will invade your boat at dusk. Of course, flies are attracted to cooking.

Borrow a 25 gallon drum mounted on a trailer. Flush your toilets into the drums. Trailer the drums to the convenience store to dump them when they get full. Turn off your sewer, you won't have one. This will simulate going to the pump out station every time the tiny drum is full. 25 gallons is actually LARGER than most holding tanks. They're more like 15 gallons on small sailboats under 40, because they were added to the boat after the law changed requiring them and there was no place to put it or a bigger one. They fill up really fast if you liveaboard!

Unless your boat is large enough to have a big head with full bath, make believe your showers/bathtubs don't work. Make a deal with someone next door to the convenience store to use THEIR bathroom for bathing at the OTHER end of the DOCK. (Marina rest room) If you use this rest room to potty, while you're there, make believe it has no paper towels or toilet paper. Bring your own. Bring your own soap and anything else you'd like to use there, too.

If your boat HAS a shower in its little head, we'll let you use the shower end of the bathtub, but only as much tub as the boat has FREE shower space for standing to shower. As the boat's shower drains into a little pan in the bilge, be sure to leave the soapy shower water in the bottom of the tub for a few days before draining it. Boat shower sumps always smell like spent soap growing exotic living organisms science hasn't actually discovered or named yet. Make sure your simulated V-berth is less than 3' from this soapy water for sleeping. The shower sump is under the passageway to the V-berth next to your pillows.

Run you whole house through a 20 amp breaker to simulate available dock power at the marina. If you're thinking of anchoring out, turn off the main breaker and make do with a boat battery and flashlights. Don't forget you have to heat your house on this 20A supply and try to keep the water from freezing in winter.

Turn off the water main valve in front of your house. Run a hose from your neighbor's lawn spigot over to your lawn spigot and get all your water from there. Try to keep the hose from freezing all winter.

As your boat won't have a laundry, disconnect yours. Go to a boat supply place, like West Marine, and buy you a dock cart. Haul ALL your supplies, laundry, garbage, etc., between the car at the convenience store and house in this cart. Once a week, haul your outboard motor to the car, leave it a day then haul it back to the house in the cart, to simulate boat problems that require boat parts to be removed/replaced on your dock. If ANYTHING ever comes out of that cart between the convenience store and the house, put it in your garage and forget about it. (This simulates losing it over the side of the dock, where it sank in 23' of water with a mud bottom or was dragged off by the current.)

Each morning, about 5AM, have someone you don't know very well run a weedeater back and forth under your bedroom windows to simulate the fishermen leaving the marina to go fishing. Have him slam trunk lids, doors, blow car horns and bang some heavy pans together from 4AM to 5AM before lighting off the weedeater. (Simulates loading boats with booze and fishing gear and gas cans.) Once a week, have him bang the running weedeater into your bedroom wall to simulate the idiot who drove his boat into the one you're sleeping in because he was half asleep leaving the dock. Put a rope over a big hook in the ceiling over your bed. Put a sheet of plywood under your pad with a place to hook a rope to one side or the other. Hook one end of the rope to the plywood hook and the other end out where he can pull on it. As soon as he shuts off the weedeater, have him pull hard 9 times on the rope to tilt your bed at least 30 degrees. (This simulates the wakes of the fishermen blasting off trying to beat each other to the fishing.) Anytime there is a storm in your area, have someone constantly pull on the rope. It's rough riding storms in the marina or anchored out! If your boat is a sailboat, install a big wire from the top of the tallest tree to your electrical ground in the house to simulate mast lightning strikes in the marina or to give you the thought of potential lightning strikes.

Each time you go out, or think of going boating away from your marina, disconnect the neighbor's water hose, your electric wires, all the umbilicals your new boat will use to make life more bearable in the marina.

Use bottled drinking water for 2 days for everything. Get one of those 5 gallon jugs with the airpump on top from a bottled water company. This is your boat's at sea water system simulator. You'll learn to conserve water this way. Of course, not having the marina's AC power supply, you'll be lighting and all from a car battery, your only source of power. If you own or can borrow a generator, feel free to leave it running to provide AC power up to the limit of the generator. If you're thinking about a 30' sailboat, you won't have room for a generator so don't use it.

Any extra family members must be sleeping on the settees in the main cabin or in the quarter berth under the cockpit, unless you intend to get a boat over 40-something feet with an aft cabin. Smaller boats have quarter berths. Cut a pad out of the same pad material that is no more than 2' wide by 6' long. Get a cardboard box from an appliance store that a SMALL refridgerator came in. Put the pad in the box, cut to fit, and make sure only one end of the box is open. The box can be no more than 2 feet above the pad. Quarter berths are really tight. Make them sleep in there, with little or no air circulation. That's what sleeping in a quarterberth is all about.

Of course, to simulate sleeping anchored out for the weekend, no heat or air conditioning will be used and all windows will be open without screens so the bugs can get in.

In the mornings, everybody gets up and goes out on the patio to enjoy the sunrise. Then, one person at a time goes back inside to dress, shave, clean themselves in the tiny cabin unless you're a family of nudists who don't mind looking at each other in the buff. You can't get dressed in the stinky little head with the door closed on a sailboat. Hell, there's barely room to bend over so you can sit on the commode. So, everyone will dress in the main cabin, one at a time.

Boat tables are 2' x 4' and mounted next to the settee. There's no room for chairs in a boat. So, eat off a 2' x 4' space on that kitchen table you slept under while sitting on a couch (settee simulator). You can also go out with breakfast and sit on the patio (cockpit), if you like.

Ok, breakfast is over. Crank up the lawnmower under the window for 2 hours. It's time to recharge the batteries from last night's usage and to freeze the coldplate in the boat's icebox which runs off a compressor on the engine. Get everybody to clean up your little hovel. Don't forget to make the beds from ONE END ONLY. You can't get to the other 3 sides of a boat bed pad.

All hands go outside and washdown the first fiberglass UPS truck that passes by. That's about how big the deck is on your 35' sailboat that needs to have the ocean cleaned off it daily or it'll turn the white fiberglass all brown like the UPS truck. Now, doesn't the UPS truck look nice like your main deck?

Ok, we're going to need some food, do the laundry, buy some boat parts that failed because the manufacturer's bean counters got cheap and used plastics and the wife wants to eat out, I'm fed up with cooking on the Coleman stove today. Let's make believe we're not at home, but in some exotic port like Ft Lauderdale, today on our cruise to Key West Before going ashore, plan on buying all the food you'll want to eat that will:

Fit into the Coleman Cooler on the floor
You can cook on the Coleman stove without an oven or all those fancy kitchen tools you don't have on the boat
Last you for 10 days, in case the wind drops and it takes more time than we planned at sea.
Plan meals carefully in a boat. We can't buy more than we can STORE, either!
You haven't washed clothes since you left home and everything is dirty. Even if it's not, pretend it is for the boater-away-from-home simulator. Put all the clothes in your simulated boat in a huge dufflebag so we can take it to the LAUNDRY! Manny's Marina HAS a laundromat, but the hot water heater is busted (for the last 8 months) and Manny has parts on order for it... saving Manny $$$$ on the electric bill! Don't forget to carry the big dufflebag with you on our excursion. God that bag stinks, doesn't it? ....PU!

Of course, we came here by BOAT, so we don't have a car. Some nice marinas have a shuttle bus, but they're not a taxi. The shuttle bus will only go to West Marine or the tourist traps, so we'll be either taking the city bus, if there is one or taxi cabs or shopping at the marina store which has almost nothing to buy at enormous prices.

Walk to the 7-11 store, where you have your car stored, but ignore the car. Make believe it isn't there. No one drove it to Ft Lauderdale for you. Use the payphone at the 7-11 and call a cab. Don't give the cab driver ANY instructions because in Ft Lauderdale you haven't the foggiest idea where West Marine is located or how to get there, unlike at home. We'll go to West Marine, first, because if we don't, the head back on the boat won't be working for a week because little Suzy broke a valve in it trying to flush some paper towels. This is your MOST important project today... that valve in the toilet!! After the cab drivers drives around for an hour looking for West Marine and asking his dispatcher how to get there, don't forget to UNLOAD your stuff from the cab, including the dirty clothes in the dufflebag. Then, go into West Marine and give the clerk a $100 bill, simulating the cost of toilet parts. Lexus parts are cheaper than toilet parts at West Marine. See for yourself! The valve she broke, the seals that will have to be replaced on the way into the valve will come to $100 easy. Tell the clerk you're using my liveaboard simulator and to take his girlfriend out to dinner on your $100 greenback. If you DO buy the boat, this'll come in handy when you DO need boat parts because he'll remember you for the great time his girlfriend gave him on your $100 tip. Hard-to-find boat parts will arrive in DAYS, not months like the rest of us. It's just a good political move while in simulation mode.

Call another cab from West Marine's phone, saving 50 cents on payphone charges. Load the cab with all your stuff, toilet parts, DIRTY CLOTHES then tell the cabbie to take you to the laundromat so we can wash the stinky clothes in the trunk. The luxury marina's laundry in Ft Lauderdale has a broken hot water heater. They're working on it, the girl at the store counter said yesterday. Mentioning the $12/ft you paid to park the boat at their dock won't get the laundry working before we leave for Key West. Do your laundry in the laundromat the cabbie found for you. Just because nobody speaks English in this neighborhood, don't worry. You'll be fine this time of day.

Call another cab to take us out of here to a supermarket. When you get there, resist the temptation to load up, because your boat has limited storage and very limited refridgeration space (remember? Coleman Cooler). Buy from the list we made early this morning. Another package of cookies is OK. Leave one of the kids guarding the pile of clean laundry just inside the supermarket's front door. We learned our lesson and DIDN'T forget and leave it in the cab, again!

Call another cab to take us back to the marina, loaded up with clean clothes and food and all-important boat parts. Isn't Ft Lauderdale beautiful from a cab? It's too late to go exploring, today. Maybe tomorrow. Don't forget to tell the cab to go to the 7-11 (marina parking lot) not your front door, since cabs don't float well.

Ok, haul all the stuff in the dock cart from the 7-11 store the two blocks to the boat bedroom. Wait 20 minutes before starting out for the house. This simulates waiting for someone to bring back a marina-owned dock cart from down the docks.... They always leave them outside their boats, until the marina crew get fed up with newbies like us asking why there aren't any carts and go down the docks to retrieve them.

Put all the stuff away, food and clothes, in the tiny drawer space provided. Have a beer on the patio (cockpit) and watch the sunset. THIS is living!

Now, disassemble the toilet in your bathroom, take out the wax ring under it and put it back. Reassemble the toilet. This completes the simulation of putting the new valve in the head on the boat. Uh, uh, NO POWERVENT! GET YOUR HAND OFF THAT SWITCH! The whole boat smells like the inside of the holding tank for hours after fixing the toilet in a real boat, too! Spray some Lysol if you got it.

After getting up, tomorrow morning, from your V-Berth, take the whole family out to breakfast by WALKING to the nearest restaurant, then take a cab to any local park or attraction you like. We're off today to see the sights of Ft Lauderdale before heading out to sea again to Key West. Take a cab back home after dinner out and go to bed, exhausted, on your little foam pad under the table....

Get up this morning and disconnect all hoses, electrical wires, etc. Get ready for sea. Crank up the lawn mower under the open bedroom window for 4 hours while we motor out to find some wind. ONE responsible adult MUST be sitting on the hot patio all day, in shifts, on watch looking out for other boats, ships, etc. If you have a riding lawn mower, let the person on watch drive it around the yard all day to simulate driving the boat down the ICW in heavy traffic. About 2PM, turn off the engine and just have them sit on the mower steering it on the patio. We're under sail, now. Every hour or so, take everyone out in the yard with a big rope and have a tug-of-war to simulate the work involved with setting sail, changing sail, trimming sail. Make sure everyone gets all sweaty in the heat.

Sailors working on sailboats are always all sweaty or we're not going anywhere fast! Do this all day, today, all night, tonight, all day, tomorrow, all night tomorrow night and all day the following day until 5PM when you arrive at the next port you're going to. Make sure nobody in the family leaves the confines of the little bedroom or the patio during our trip. Make sure everyone conserves water, battery power, etc., things you'll want to conserve while being at sea on a trip somewhere. Everyone can go up to the 7-11 for an icecream as soon as we get the boat docked on day 3, the first time anyone has left the confines of the bedroom/patio in 3 days.

Now go buy that boat! I know you can't wait..
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Old 14-03-2017, 10:53   #10
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Re: New-bees

Thank you for the responses. I really liked the simulator! Honestly, makes me want a boat MORE!!!
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