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Old 07-10-2018, 13:39   #91
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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All true; and I could write pages more of similar stuff. Growing up in the 60s and 70s was so very different than "these kids today."

Even so, hard work and long hours are not enough. Some combination of smarts and luck are also mandatory, otherwise the bootstraps won't lift you past a few dollars over minimum wage. I've had many employees caught in this scenario, and the worst part is that at some point they see that they will never get ahead. Then their attitude suffers, making their work lives even more untenable. It's a problem I don't know how to solve, but I can't pretend that it doesn't exist.
15 years ago when I was unemployed, I put on some old white clothes, picked up a couple of paint brushes and went looking for a work painting houses. Within a month I teamed up with another fellow also unemployed, same situation and formed a house painting business with the proceeds from our first contract. We were each making $1500/week within a month, but it did involve working 60 hours per week out in the sun.

Please explain why people today can’t do something similar? Lack of imagination? Might have to put down the cellphone? To difficult? I wouldn’t consider working as a house painter being “lucky.”
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Old 07-10-2018, 17:28   #92
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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15 years ago when I was unemployed, I put on some old white clothes, picked up a couple of paint brushes and went looking for a work painting houses. Within a month I teamed up with another fellow also unemployed, same situation and formed a house painting business with the proceeds from our first contract. We were each making $1500/week within a month, but it did involve working 60 hours per week out in the sun.

Please explain why people today canít do something similar? Lack of imagination? Might have to put down the cellphone? To difficult? I wouldnít consider working as a house painter being ďlucky.Ē
First, it's skilled labor. There is a large pool of people who simply cannot do it. They carry paint buckets or bricks, they wash dishes and mop floors and shovel asphalt. It's what they can do. That you have the ability to develop the necessary skills might be luck, I don't know.

Second, just painting is just a job, and will never take you to the next level. It's that you were disciplined, you re-invested your profits, you leveraged current contracts into new ones, and you grew your business. You operated a business.

Operating a business ... government paperwork and taxes by the truckload; contracts; scheduling, forecasting, and tracking; even simple things like not overpaying yourself and re-investing the profits. It requires smarts and discipline. Additionally -- yourself not withstanding -- many, many people simply cannot function independently, they need to be supervised. It's why some people are job-creators and the vast majority of people are job-workers.

i have genuine respect for what you have accomplished. I am genuinely baffled why you seem to think poor people are mostly like you, but just too lazy to succeed. It's simply not the case. At least, I have hired a great many of them, and that has not been my direct observation.

For what it's worth, I have also hired plenty of employees who turned out to be lazy and useless, so yes they are out there. Even so, they are also not remotely smart enough to bootstrap into success, even if they weren't lazy.
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Old 07-10-2018, 17:51   #93
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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First, it's skilled labor. There is a large pool of people who simply cannot do it. They carry paint buckets or bricks, they wash dishes and mop floors and shovel asphalt. It's what they can do. That you have the ability to develop the necessary skills might be luck, I don't know.

Second, just painting is just a job, and will never take you to the next level. It's that you were disciplined, you re-invested your profits, you leveraged current contracts into new ones, and you grew your business. You operated a business.

Operating a business ... government paperwork and taxes by the truckload; contracts; scheduling, forecasting, and tracking; even simple things like not overpaying yourself and re-investing the profits. It requires smarts and discipline. Additionally -- yourself not withstanding -- many, many people simply cannot function independently, they need to be supervised. It's why some people are job-creators and the vast majority of people are job-workers.

i have genuine respect for what you have accomplished. I am genuinely baffled why you seem to think poor people are mostly like you, but just too lazy to succeed. It's simply not the case. At least, I have hired a great many of them, and that has not been my direct observation.

For what it's worth, I have also hired plenty of employees who turned out to be lazy and useless, so yes they are out there. Even so, they are also not remotely smart enough to bootstrap into success, even if they weren't lazy.
Very interesting. So.... I’m too inept to realize I’m not inept.
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Old 07-10-2018, 22:15   #94
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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No disagreement from me … except to say you undervalue and under estimate the skills and difficulty of producing quality video. It’s far from simply hanging out on a beach with a beer..
Yet often many of them are at the beech with beers in their hands, After my submarine gig finished I needed work so I became my own boss and photographed real estate for a living. Within that compact I began to do short 2 min videos of houses, which made sense because I was already there and this was just an add on. We found that more than 2 mins and viewers would leave or not complete the viewing.

I used a fairly set formula of track and travel combined with pans, that might be manual focused 3 shots of the front, one going through the door, and a couple per each living area, back to 3 at the rear unless it was more extensive. There might be 20-30 shots in all, at around 10 secs per shot and I'll probably decide against some in edit.

I could do this part of a shoot in 40 mins, and once I got home 5 mins to download off the camera, maybe around 30 mins to put it all together. I did like 500 videos over several years, and it was by far my most profitable product.

So with front and back plates which are preformatted, producing 2 mins of video didnt take all that long. Most of these people are shooting go-pro or steady cam which is a lot less difficult than track and travel running a camera on a tripod on rails and a dolly.

So for 10 mins of video there might be several hours of shooting and a few hours in post putting it all together. It really isnt that hard, its not at all like they slave away tirelessly to produce one video a week, and some have post production crew anyway.

I still like to watch these things and have a long list I subscribe to. I never give any of them money because they get a trivial amount from you tube anyway. I believe if their content is good they will get more subscribers and it will become a success for them. Given my experience ^ I get a little tired of the marketing and begging it just gets old.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:10   #95
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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I never give any of them money because they get a trivial amount from you tube anyway. I believe if their content is good they will get more subscribers and it will become a success for them.
So no matter what they do it's not going to increase their funding from your demographic but that approach may increase funding from another demographic so seems worth the effort.

That's the part of the argument on this and other forums against blogger/vloggers I don't understand. To spend the energy typing up a detailed negative post (not just you as I quoted your post but the long list of people that rail against practice) in what should in reality be a "meh, not my thing. Move on to the next unread post" type reaction.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:27   #96
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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So no matter what they do it's not going to increase their funding from your demographic but that approach may increase funding from another demographic so seems worth the effort.
Im ok with this, if they make interesting content then people will follow. The higher their viewership then the more they make.

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That's the part of the argument on this and other forums against blogger/vloggers I don't understand. To spend the energy typing up a detailed negative post (not just you as I quoted your post but the long list of people that rail against practice) in what should in reality be a "meh, not my thing. Move on to the next unread post" type reaction.
Then you misread me. I enjoy the work of the people I follow and Im not against them. I try to communicate and help out where I can in the spirit of community. I want them to be a success and if theyre good the structure is there to make that happen.

But Im not here to fund someones glittering party lifestyle via Patreon etc, and there are more than a few of those that Ive already unfollowed.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:43   #97
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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Well maybe I get just as tired of younger people making the generalization that all older people are the cause of their current problems... it works both ways. I personally didn’t go half way around the world and over-fish your waters. I disagree with the practice of dredging with nets. Who do you think put the “sensible” environmental regs and practices in place before most younger people were born? Now you seem to be complaining about the need for more regulations to clean things up, but at the same time complaining about regulations put in place that are holding you back personally, again, you can’t have it both ways.
In the end, we are both tired of being called something we are not as the only thing we are currently doing is spewing personal anecdotes to defend ourselves. I'll consider that kind of an agreement and not pursue the conversation.

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As I said, circles within circles. It seems to be one of those eternal truths that the generations find blame in the other. And there is plenty of blame to go around. But it’s not particularly useful to point fingers. My view is that people generally do the best they can, given the informaiton they have and the constraints they face.
Thanks for the post, you are more reasonable than we are it seems.

However, if the people running the forum wonder why there are not so many young people hanging around,
It is my opinion that it partially finds its source in the daily/weekly threads about "E-beggars" or "Young couple crashed boat" and such, constantly filled with generalizations, how it was different back in the days, how ethics are gone, Entitled, Lazy, Smartphone generation, Mom's basement generation and other generosities that I've read hundreds of.
Try to read these threads genuinely from the point of view of a 15-20 years old trying to get into sailing and hoping to find a welcoming community.

Thankfully it is compensated by some people being extremely knowledgeable, extremely helpful and always happy to have a polite and non-judgemental conversation, which is why I am still here and still looking forward to meet some of you on the water.

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No one outside Tasmania seems to be aware of the problems caused by the proliferation of the fish farms. We were told by a friend of ours, that you used to be able to see the bottom all over Isthmus Bay, in the shallow water, and in the 30 ft. water. All that's gone.

Had a friend with a mussel farm down by Dover, not now, and our friend moved away. The excrement, and other pollution from the fish farms killed his.
I know that I am an insider so you are free not to believe me but I do believe the impact of fishfarm is widely over exaggerated in Tasmania.
Don't get me wrong, it definitely has a negative impact on the environment, especially right under the pens in the leases with no water flow.

However I keep hearing that fish farms killed everything over massively spread zones and it has not been my experience at all. The wharf we depart from is literally 100 meters from a lease with 14 pens and is full of life with draftboard sharks, Bait fishes, Wrasses, Crays, Crabs, Kelps. I personally get abalones every once in a while from a cove that is sitting around 100-150m from another lease and you can not tell the difference with another unspoiled spot further south I sometimes go to dive for fun.

For the mussels and visibility, it is rather hard for me to believe as 20-30% of my job consists of removing the 10cm thick layer of mussels, algaes and squirters that grows on everything over the span of a year, nets, barges, ropes etc.

No later than yesterday afternoon, I spent an hour underwater in the lease just next to hope island, visibility was around 15m as I could almost see the surface from the bottom and I scraped probably a ton worth of mussels of the bottom and sides. Some of them could barely fit in my palm.

Maybe they were using chemicals that would kill mussels back in the days ? I wouldn't know about that as I've spent only a couple years here.

So yes, the bottom right under the pen is not pretty and the fish farms have an impact on the environment but not as bad as some would have you believe in my opinion.
Plus they are trying pretty hard, now implementing kelp farming around the leases to absorb the excess nitrogen of the defections, waste disposals systems and moving further offshore where there is way more water flow.
They are moving toward sustainability and will get there eventually.

You might not believe it but I say that neutrally because I'll be gone from fish farming soonish as I have other work opportunities lined up.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:16   #98
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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Thanks for the post, you are more reasonable than we are it seems.

However, if the people running the forum wonder why there are not so many young people hanging around, It is my opinion that it partially finds its source in the daily/weekly threads about "E-beggars" or "Young couple crashed boat" and such, constantly filled with generalizations, how it was different back in the days, how ethics are gone, Entitled, Lazy, Smartphone generation, Mom's basement generation and other generosities that I've read hundreds of.
Try to read these threads genuinely from the point of view of a 15-20 years old trying to get into sailing and hoping to find a welcoming community.
Thanks Bob. I agree (in general). At 51 Iím no longer one of the young folk. A lot can be said on these forums that I let wash off my back, but when someone starts making broad, insulting statements about any group, I will take umbrage. Especially when the data clearly shows ďthe kids todayĒ are not lazy or entitled ó at least no more so than previous generations. Same goes for the Baby Boomers. They were neither greedy nor rapacious ó at least no more than previous or current generations .

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Thankfully it is compensated by some people being extremely knowledgeable, extremely helpful and always happy to have a polite and non-judgemental conversation, which is why I am still here and still looking forward to meet some of you on the water.
Me as well, although I have to admit that sometimes the dark side takes over in my responses .

ZULU40: Iím pleased to hear you have such skill with video. But I guess by your standards, anyone who becomes good at something, thereby taking less time at it, somehow becomes less deserving of praise. Odd way to view things.

I too have done video; 10 to 25 minute runs. It takes me far longer to put together a relatively complex narrative, with multiple video, stills, narration, and audio tracks, that will engage an audience over that time. Perhaps Iím just not as good as you, or perhaps your simple formulaic real estate vids really are very easy compared to well-produced cruising vids. Either way, if you think it is so easy to make money doing cruising vids, why are you not doing it?

BTW, almost none of the YouTuber sailing and cruising stuff holds much interest to me. Personally, I find the popular/successful channels to be kinda boring, repetitive, and too often verging on soft porn. Sex sells, and they know it. But when I want that sort of thing, there are far better places to go on the Internet than cruising vids.

But I donít think actual sailors and cruisers are the real market for these vids. Just like cruising mags mostly cater to the planners and cubicle-dreamers, so too with these videos.

JPA Cate (Ann): Just FYI, people are certainly aware of the problems caused by fish farming on both Canadian coasts. Itís been a significant environmental issue here for decades. I just left Newfoundland where the latest crisis and public debate is swirling. So itís not just in Tasmania that fish farming is an issue.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:56   #99
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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ZULU40: I’m pleased to hear you have such skill with video. But I guess by your standards, anyone who becomes good at something, thereby taking less time at it, somehow becomes less deserving of praise. Odd way to view things.

I too have done video; 10 to 25 minute runs. It takes me far longer to put together a relatively complex narrative, with multiple video, stills, narration, and audio tracks, that will engage an audience over that time.
I never did voice over, the deal is real estate agents shouldnt do photos and video, and I dont sell homes. I just put tolerable low volume musak over the top. I chose a good application and just did the same cross fade transitions leaving about 7 sec video per shot. Always finish a shot with a good sold composition. Nicely presented (there is work in that) the house sells itself

Ive seen a lot of youtube stuff, ...... complex narrative, dont make me laugh .. Its a YouTube video not Gone With The Wind

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
Perhaps I’m just not as good as you, or perhaps your simple formulaic real estate vids really are very easy compared to well-produced cruising vids. Either way, if you think it is so easy to make money doing cruising vids, why are you not doing it?
Choices of software helps, find software that suits you and you can work very quickly. Im an engineer and job planning is a forte. Sure I can compose imagery, I actually won prizes for it from US institutions, and I know how the cameras work intimately, but I just dreamed up a formula I could sell, tweaked it and continued with it.

Others were selling this as a product at 2x my price, some, well a few, weren't all that bad either. But it was early days for using video for individual homes that few had worked out how to apply for a comfortable profit.

And I never said it was easy, I said it isnt hard, and I said I disrespected begging when obviously these are people with a choice. When it comes to formulaic the Patreon thing or even most of go fund me is a dreadful circus

If I do video again, I wont go begging, it will just be a shared experience pretty much for the hell of it

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
BTW, almost none of the YouTuber sailing and cruising stuff holds much interest to me. Personally, I find the popular/successful channels to be kinda boring, repetitive, and too often verging on soft porn. Sex sells, and they know it. But when I want that sort of thing, there are far better places to go on the Internet than cruising vids.

But I don’t think actual sailors and cruisers are the real market for these vids. Just like cruising mags mostly cater to the planners and cubicle-dreamers, so too with these videos.
there are a few project boats around, I watch them for the same reason I come here, theres usually something to learn,,,, usually. One taught me how to service a winch, in return I gave him a few tips on electrics he wont find anywhere else.

When they quit the boat work and move on, I expect after awhile I will too
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:06   #100
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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Very interesting. So.... Iím too inept to realize Iím not inept.
Hah! I've no idea how you pulled a Dunning-Kruger accusation from what I said.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:14   #101
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

It all went downhill with that dang Survivor show...
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:36   #102
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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It all went downhill with that dang Survivor show...
Actually it was the pulp fiction era. Once the content genres of western, detective and scifi left the big name publishers it was all down hill. Or was it the street plays in Rome...
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Old 08-10-2018, 14:35   #103
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

Does anyone seriously think today's youth is biologically any different than their parents or grandparents? Maybe all the chemicals in the water? Hormones in the food? We're the same humans, mostly reasonable, responding to different economic conditions.

I don't doubt the skill and tenacity of the old-timers posting here; however, they shouldn't ignore Survivorship Bias. Successful people, upon reflection, often discount luck or circumstances. Considering we're all recreational boat owners, this forum is already a sample of relatively successful people, especially from a global perspective.

If you take a firm where the least successful half the salespeople are fired every year, you go from 80 to 5 salespeople in five years. Even if all salespeople are equally skilled (same chance of making a sale), most of the 'winners' will view themselves as the superior salespeople. When an investment manager tells you he's made above average returns ten years running, he could be genius or simply lucky. He's probably convinced himself (and wants to convince you), that it couldn't possibly be luck! I mean tens years in a row!

Kenomac, I'm a millennial and I make decent money varnishing, glassing and occasional carpentry work. It just doesn't compare to what my peers can make doing digital stuff. As I see it, I'm making the irrational decision by working harder, for less pay. What's wrong with developing A/V skills and self-branding? That's the modern economy. With offshoring, etc, why develop skills possessed by millions in the developing world (trade skills). There was a magic period where semi-skilled workers in the US could expect a lavish standard of living. The rest of the world was on the ropes and/or under communist repression. Not a lot of competition.

Times have changed. People adapt.
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Old 09-10-2018, 01:03   #104
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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Don't like the content? Don't watch it. Easy enough. Like the content? Pay for it. Don't want to pay for it? No biggie.

What the hell is the problem with people. It's a business model. I create a lot of stuff, and still fortunately kind of get paid for it. I direct TV commercials and I also do some digital content for brands. Eventually I will jump on the youtube bandwagon. But it's not "begging". Or even "supporting". It's a new business model. Pay for the content you WANT and LIKE.

Have you noticed Netflix is a digital age rehash of the cable provider? I will give you x million content for x amount per month. Flat fee. Hey, but Im not interested in 95% of your content. Well ... it's cheap, so you pay x for month for 5% (or less). Some people prefer to pay for content they actually want to watch.

What's the biggie. It's simple.
It's just plain weird isn't it? Some people's obsession with how others make their living (if it's even a living, as oppose to just a bit of extra cash), but it seems to happen a lot on sailing forums. It's just the nature of people. Maybe age and background has something to do with it, maybe not. I know that I never see people on motorcycle or 4x4 forums getting a upset about people blogging, selling books, or vlogging to earn some money. It doesn't happen on tech forums either, nor photography forums.

Yet on forums like this, you get "oh well I worked hard for my money for 40 years" Perhaps you did. Perhaps you did the best you could with the information, skills, and opportunities you had a time. That is neither here nor there when it comes other (sometimes younger) people earning money in 2018, and working harder (video editing and writing can be hard work) isn't necessarily better.

Oddly enough, many of these people complaining, will be first to reply to a help thread with "buy such and such a book it covers it" Often written by a sailor to help fun his/her lifestyle. That's just plain odd.
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Old 09-10-2018, 03:35   #105
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Re: Help Me Pay My Way (Well, Not Quite ... )

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So with front and back plates which are preformatted, producing 2 mins of video didnt take all that long. Most of these people are shooting go-pro or steady cam which is a lot less difficult than track and travel running a camera on a tripod on rails and a dolly.

So for 10 mins of video there might be several hours of shooting and a few hours in post putting it all together. It really isnt that hard, its not at all like they slave away tirelessly to produce one video a week, and some have post production crew anyway.

I still like to watch these things and have a long list I subscribe to. I never give any of them money because they get a trivial amount from you tube anyway. I believe if their content is good they will get more subscribers and it will become a success for them. Given my experience ^ I get a little tired of the marketing and begging it just gets old.
Haha. You are comparing shooting static homes (which is akin to taking "moving pictures") to establishing a visual narrative style. Way to go. I can tell you have SO much knowledge in the art of film making. In the end, you get paid a lot more money for unique talent, fortunately, not for "the amount of work it takes". I guess you could also think that what you did is not that far from the work Christopher Nolan does on any given flick. Oh well ...
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